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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VIIII: "We're Close" "We're Not Close" Edition

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Old
12-16-2012, 02:19 PM
  #926
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
If the league isn't willing to meet in the middle on contract term the PA should just tell them to bugger off. Going from unlimited contracts to 5 years is just insulting. Agree to 7 years with a firm variance (5%-10%) and play hockey. This is just stupid.

Instead of settling in the middle, they should settle on a "home-grown rule."

Other team's players: 5 year max with a 5% variance.
Your own team's players: 8 years with a 10% variance.
* No sign-and-trades would be allowed. If you sign someone to a contract longer than 5 years or with greater than 5% variance, you can't trade them until the end of the subsequent season.

This will keep more players with the same teams longer. It will also make draft picks more valuable.

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12-16-2012, 02:27 PM
  #927
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But what of the bigger picture? The owners seem willing to burn down their own shop to have their way.

That's because the owners are professional business people, not hysterical fans. The NHL would not get destroyed by this. The MLB went through 4 strikes in 10 years without getting destroyed. Sure, it's a bigger sport, but that's what makes it worse for the MLB, not better.

1. There was constant coverage of the MLB strikes. Nobody cares about hockey.

2. MLB has a lot of casual fans who might just pick up another casual sport. Hockey fans are overwhelmingly die-hards who will stick around no matter what.

The only loss for the owners is what they are losing during the lockout. After the lockout, everything will be back to normal. Everyone here will post how glad they are to have hockey back, and we'll go right into arguing about which player should make the team and who should be kept in Hartford.

Suddenly, Kolarik vs. Haley vs. Newbury will become the all-important debate on this forum.

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12-16-2012, 02:40 PM
  #928
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beacon View Post
Instead of settling in the middle, they should settle on a "home-grown rule."

Other team's players: 5 year max with a 5% variance.
Your own team's players: 8 years with a 10% variance.
* No sign-and-trades would be allowed. If you sign someone to a contract longer than 5 years or with greater than 5% variance, you can't trade them until the end of the subsequent season.

This will keep more players with the same teams longer. It will also make draft picks more valuable.
Why should a UFA be restricted to staying with his current team? After 7 years or more of being with an organization he should be able to get the best deal he can. If his current team doesn't want to pay him so be it.

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12-16-2012, 03:19 PM
  #929
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Haven't posted on here very much, I've mostly been on the main board, so I'm surprised to see so much pro-player sentiment. The main board is almost entirely anti-PA at this point. It's hard for me to understand how anyone who has been seriously paying attention to this could side with the PA.

I read guys making arguments that the league should 'control it's own spending' they are making an argument for collusion (i.e. violating anti-trust laws). If the PA got its way the league would see massive contraction, teams would shut down and the players would ultimately have fewer jobs.

This disclaimer of interest is a clear sham designed to gain leverage and continue to stall this process, remember the league wanted to start CBA talks over a year ago! The League's legal moves are a stroke of genius which clearly show the PA doesn't have a legal leg to stand on with this disclaimer.

I really have no idea what the PA's game plan is, the deal which would have secured the most money for the players has long since passed. To me, it just seems like Don Fehr is fighting a personal battle to hurt the NHL. He has the bulk of players convinced they're going to get some major victory when in fact it will just result in a cancelled season, the loss of massive amount of money and the end of many NHL player's careers.


Last edited by NickyMaz: 12-16-2012 at 03:36 PM.
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Old
12-16-2012, 03:30 PM
  #930
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FWIW I'm a Rangers fan and will always be a Rangers fan--at least as long as I'm breathing and/or the team is still in existence. I'm also a union person and have been through at least some labor strife. The economic realities of the 'businessmen' owners don't always seem that impressive to me. Those people in the higher strata of income and wealth more often than not have gotten where they are in a cutthroat world. This is just another example of it. It's different though when you're cutting loose hundreds or thousands of ordinary people than a couple thousand star athletes who are making tons of money. The reality for me anyway is the ordinary people have a greater need because of spouses, children, mortgages, debt--cutting them loose just because you can get cheaper labor somewhere else is worse than trying to hammer your multi-million dollar athlete. Whether the faces of the owners doing this are exactly the same--more or less the people doing it are coming from the same kind of wealth and privilege--so I have a lot of antipathy towards these types. Why Jeremy Jacobs needs to be worth 100's of millions of $ is beyond my scope. It just strikes me as obscene. In any case it's hard for me to sympathize with people such as him. OTOH the players--at least most of them are doing very well.

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12-16-2012, 03:46 PM
  #931
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyMaz View Post
Haven't posted on here very much, I've mostly been on the main board, so I'm surprised to see so much pro-player sentiment. The main board is almost entirely anti-PA at this point. It's hard for me to understand how anyone who has been seriously paying attention to this could side with the PA.

I read guys making arguments that the league should 'control it's own spending' they are making an argument for collusion (i.e. violating anti-trust laws). If the PA got its way the league would see massive contraction, teams would shut down and the players would ultimately have fewer jobs.

This disclaimer of interest is a clear sham designed to gain leverage and continue to stall this process, remember the league wanted to start CBA talks over a year ago! The League's legal moves are a stroke of genius which clearly show the PA doesn't have a legal leg to stand on with this disclaimer.

I really have no idea what the PA's game plan is, the deal which would have secured the most money for the players has long since passed. To me, it just seems like Don Fehr is fighting a personal battle to hurt the NHL. He has the bulk of players convinced they're going to get some major victory when in fact it will just result in a cancelled season, the loss of massive amount of money and the end of many NHL player's careers.
NHL makes more money than it's ever made in it's history, owners ***** about how the players are making too much and force a lockout.

Owners somehow convince players to negotiate with Fehr, when they're close to a deal the players, since they're not experts in this stuff, want to show Fehr what they've been up to and the owners response is to say if you do that we're out. Owners stop negotiating.

Lockout, not a strike.

Owners hand out massive contracts in the offseason, then say they can't afford them a week later.

I don't see how anyone can side with the owners at this point.

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Old
12-16-2012, 03:47 PM
  #932
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That's because the owners are professional business people, not hysterical fans
There is nothing rational about the way this has been handled by the owners.

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Old
12-16-2012, 04:09 PM
  #933
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
NHL makes more money than it's ever made in it's history, owners ***** about how the players are making too much and force a lockout.

Owners somehow convince players to negotiate with Fehr, when they're close to a deal the players, since they're not experts in this stuff, want to show Fehr what they've been up to and the owners response is to say if you do that we're out. Owners stop negotiating.

Lockout, not a strike.

Owners hand out massive contracts in the offseason, then say they can't afford them a week later.

I don't see how anyone can side with the owners at this point.
I don't give much credit to Bettman with how the league's revenue is the highest it has ever been because I feel it is the internet, forums, media, etc. that have grown the game, forums and blogs really grew around the time the NHL was coming out of the 04-05 lockout and that had a HUGE reason in my opinion for where the NHL is in revenue. Plus the NHL center ice online helps. I also believe that is what is hurting the NHL's image right now. I also read that the Winter Classic and the Coors Molson contract with the NHL were all done by John Collins (NOT Gary Bettman) (I can't recall the article I read it in, but I did read it in the past few weeks). So I don't think Bettman is the reason for the league's success, I think it has been the improvement in technology and others in the NHL.

Part of me kind of would like to see the union disclaim interest because it would be real exciting to see a free market again, see who would go where, I mean it would be almost like an unorganized fantasy draft. I also think you would see a lot of players be loyal to some teams they are already with....The other part of me wants rangers hockey ASAP! Make no mistake I am fully pro player, I do not see any reason to side with the owners, there is a lot of financial records that the owners have not shared with the union, so how much they are losing/making I think is looking worse than it really is.

Also, NJD have had a lot of financial problems, did they find another investor to help them or/and how is that lockout going to impact them?

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Old
12-16-2012, 04:41 PM
  #934
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
NHL makes more money than it's ever made in it's history, owners ***** about how the players are making too much and force a lockout.

Owners somehow convince players to negotiate with Fehr, when they're close to a deal the players, since they're not experts in this stuff, want to show Fehr what they've been up to and the owners response is to say if you do that we're out. Owners stop negotiating.

Lockout, not a strike.

Owners hand out massive contracts in the offseason, then say they can't afford them a week later.

I don't see how anyone can side with the owners at this point.
A couple of points.

1. Revenue does not equal profits. While the league is bringing in record revenues they also have very high costs to contend with. While the 57% the players get goes into their pockets, the 43% the owners get pays for the arenas, training facilities, staff, coaches, travel, hotels, advertising, etc. Many teams are losing money or barely breaking even.

I'm a hockey fan and I want to see a league with 30 healthy, profitable teams. If we go the route the PA wants we will likely see contractions, few teams, fewer players.

2. So, you want the league the collude and violate anti-trust laws? The teams have to work within the system, the CBA process is how they negotiate the playing field.

3. Fehr has not been a good faith negotiator. He stalled from Nov 2011 until this summer and when they did meet he was late, disruptive and continually put forth proposals he knew were non-starters with the league.

4. I have zero sympathy for the players at this point. They aren't some working stiffs making minimum wage, they're pro athletes making in most cases millions of dollars. The league has every right to lock the players out, as their motion to the federal court shows.

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Old
12-16-2012, 04:43 PM
  #935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyMaz View Post
Haven't posted on here very much, I've mostly been on the main board, so I'm surprised to see so much pro-player sentiment. The main board is almost entirely anti-PA at this point. It's hard for me to understand how anyone who has been seriously paying attention to this could side with the PA.

I read guys making arguments that the league should 'control it's own spending' they are making an argument for collusion (i.e. violating anti-trust laws). If the PA got its way the league would see massive contraction, teams would shut down and the players would ultimately have fewer jobs.

This disclaimer of interest is a clear sham designed to gain leverage and continue to stall this process, remember the league wanted to start CBA talks over a year ago! The League's legal moves are a stroke of genius which clearly show the PA doesn't have a legal leg to stand on with this disclaimer.

I really have no idea what the PA's game plan is, the deal which would have secured the most money for the players has long since passed. To me, it just seems like Don Fehr is fighting a personal battle to hurt the NHL. He has the bulk of players convinced they're going to get some major victory when in fact it will just result in a cancelled season, the loss of massive amount of money and the end of many NHL player's careers.
I can tell you're very naive about this stuff. The NHL and NBA are represented by the same law firm. Proskauer Rose. Genius move? The NBA filed a lawsuit in a NY court and filed a complaint with the NLRB.

Quote:
Comparing NHL and NBA lawsuits, legal expert Nathaniel Grow says: "Both follow the exact same structure and use much of the same language."
https://twitter.com/mirtle/status/279998243918708737

Bad faith negotiating. Telling the PA that Don Fehr could not be in the room when the CBA was being negotiated is good faith negotiating? The PA can't tell the NHL who should be in the room and the NHL can't tell the PA who should be in the room.

What's the NHL's end game? Trying to break the union. The same union they are suing to prevent from dissolving.

Gary Bettman is 3 for 3 in lockouts. In 1995,Bettman was told to make a deal which he didn't want to make. He changes the rules requiring 8 owners to knock down a proposal he doesn't like. The 2004-05 season was canceled. Now its lockout #3. Can Gary make a deal to save the season? Gary demonized Bob Goodenow and now it Fehr's turn.

Where do you get this stuff from? You've spent too much time with those misinformed people on the main board. The PA has proposed keeping the same system. Hard cap. No luxury taxes. The PA has proposed $240M in revenue sharing to help the lower revenue franchises. The NHL wants no part of $240M in revenue sharing. The PA has made a proposal on contract term limits. The NHLPA has made a proposal on players in the AHL or Europe counting against the cap. The PA has offered a long term CBA. The PA's end game is to make a deal. The NHL doesn't want to make a deal. Maybe the players have no other option other than dissolving the union and filing anti-trust lawsuits. The players association can't do anything more for them.

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12-16-2012, 05:40 PM
  #936
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Joffrey Lupul got locked out of a restaurant next to the Air Canada Centre. I think that could be the leverage that finally breaks the NHLPA.

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Old
12-16-2012, 06:46 PM
  #937
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Bad faith negotiating. Telling the PA that Don Fehr could not be in the room when the CBA was being negotiated is good faith negotiating? The PA can't tell the NHL who should be in the room and the NHL can't tell the PA who should be in the room. .
NHLPA agreed to hold talks without Fehr ,, A claim of bad faith negotiation wont fly in court using that situation

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12-16-2012, 06:46 PM
  #938
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NIETHER side wants to negotiate.

How can anyone support either side? They are both a disgrace.

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12-16-2012, 06:48 PM
  #939
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The apathy has really set in.

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12-16-2012, 07:25 PM
  #940
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I can tell you're very naive about this stuff.
Wow, thanks for the ad hominem attack. If you want to debate you can start by not calling me names. I'd expect that from an islanders fan.

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12-16-2012, 07:35 PM
  #941
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NHLPA agreed to hold talks without Fehr ,, A claim of bad faith negotiation wont fly in court using that situation
And they did... however, fehr has to be in the room to finish anything.. players thought they might have been close.. they could have an argument

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12-16-2012, 07:45 PM
  #942
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As this progresses and as the apathy grows, I find myself siding with the owners more and more. Maybe it's because I own a business and as that business owner I'm the last guy to get paid. I can't even imagine sharing revenue with employees that don't share in the risk and I get that playing hockey in general is risky (I play myself and get injured). But, I find it patently unfair that the players get paid no matter what, the employees in the arena get paid no matter what, and the owner of quite a few of these franchises actually sink money in year after year (Wang) to keep things going. If the NHL and NHLPA really want to make this a "partnership" then the players should assume some of the risk that a franchise can, and often does, lose money.

And, don't get me wrong, I realize that many of the NHL owners are greedy, slimy ********. I know they are. But, now the players are, too. And that's really disheartening for someone like me that's watched this sport since the late 70's. Now, it's like every other sport and it's even worse because they can't even figure out a way to play.

I really don't want to hear what the players think their concessions were. There is no CBA. They didn't come down from 57% to 52% or 51% or whatever. There's nothing to come down FROM. There is NO agreement. Was Minnesota slimy in signing multi-year deals that they probably thought they could renege on? Sure. Were Parise and Suter slimy in colluding on going to the same club for the same money for pretty much the rest of their careers and clearly taking advantage of loopholes in the previous CBA (as the Wild did, as well)? Sure.

Both sides make me sick and there's a reason I've given up on baseball entirely. Too much greed by all parties involved, too many million dollar players with stats that would make old-timers cringe, and, finally, too much $ to go to the game without breaking the bank. These sports have less and less fans at the game and more and more people making it a social event because they got the tickets from XYZ game and just ***** about their day rather than having any knowledge or interest in the sport that's being played in front of them.

Been a fan for parts of 5 decades and my patience is near an end. And, if the NHL and NHLPA can drive a fan like me to this point then they are in serious trouble.

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12-16-2012, 08:29 PM
  #943
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I heard through Asham that a deal will be struck in Jan and it will be a 50 game schedule. From his mouth to your ears.

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12-16-2012, 08:35 PM
  #944
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I heard through Asham that a deal will be struck in Jan and it will be a 50 game schedule. From his mouth to your ears.
I highly doubt it.

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12-16-2012, 08:37 PM
  #945
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Why should a UFA be restricted to staying with his current team? After 7 years or more of being with an organization he should be able to get the best deal he can. If his current team doesn't want to pay him so be it.

They don't have to. There will just be sign and trades, or guys who don't want to stay will be traded at the deadline of their final year and then sign for more years elsewhere. It's also not like ONLY being allowed to sign for 5 years is really hurting them if their contract expires and they walk. They could play for 5 years and sign another deal if they want to stay there and are still producing. Plus about 5% of the league, thus far under the cap system, have signed deals longer than 5 years with teams other than the one they were already on, so... boohoo for 5% of the league; let's loose a season over it.

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12-16-2012, 09:18 PM
  #946
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I heard through Asham that a deal will be struck in Jan and it will be a 50 game schedule. From his mouth to your ears.
We've heard enough of when it will start already. This season is down the tubes. Only a matter of time.

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12-16-2012, 09:54 PM
  #947
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As this progresses and as the apathy grows, I find myself siding with the owners more and more. Maybe it's because I own a business and as that business owner I'm the last guy to get paid. I can't even imagine sharing revenue with employees that don't share in the risk and I get that playing hockey in general is risky (I play myself and get injured). But, I find it patently unfair that the players get paid no matter what, the employees in the arena get paid no matter what, and the owner of quite a few of these franchises actually sink money in year after year (Wang) to keep things going. If the NHL and NHLPA really want to make this a "partnership" then the players should assume some of the risk that a franchise can, and often does, lose money.

And, don't get me wrong, I realize that many of the NHL owners are greedy, slimy ********. I know they are. But, now the players are, too. And that's really disheartening for someone like me that's watched this sport since the late 70's. Now, it's like every other sport and it's even worse because they can't even figure out a way to play.

I really don't want to hear what the players think their concessions were. There is no CBA. They didn't come down from 57% to 52% or 51% or whatever. There's nothing to come down FROM. There is NO agreement. Was Minnesota slimy in signing multi-year deals that they probably thought they could renege on? Sure. Were Parise and Suter slimy in colluding on going to the same club for the same money for pretty much the rest of their careers and clearly taking advantage of loopholes in the previous CBA (as the Wild did, as well)? Sure.

Both sides make me sick and there's a reason I've given up on baseball entirely. Too much greed by all parties involved, too many million dollar players with stats that would make old-timers cringe, and, finally, too much $ to go to the game without breaking the bank. These sports have less and less fans at the game and more and more people making it a social event because they got the tickets from XYZ game and just ***** about their day rather than having any knowledge or interest in the sport that's being played in front of them.

Been a fan for parts of 5 decades and my patience is near an end. And, if the NHL and NHLPA can drive a fan like me to this point then they are in serious trouble.
+1 sums up my view.

I'm very close to cancelling my subs which i held for over 20 yrs.

Do I blame both sides? absolutely.

Why would I cancel the sub? Given my recent perspective on players attitudes i gave no one to root for.

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12-16-2012, 10:03 PM
  #948
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
NHLPA agreed to hold talks without Fehr ,, A claim of bad faith negotiation wont fly in court using that situation
They never agreed to hold talking indefinitely without Fehr. They never agreed to negotiate a final agreement without Fehr.

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12-16-2012, 10:05 PM
  #949
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+1 sums up my view.

I'm very close to cancelling my subs which i held for over 20 yrs.

Do I blame both sides? absolutely.

Why would I cancel the sub? Given my recent perspective on players attitudes i gave no one to root for.
I liked your post in the main lockout thread in NHL talk. I agree. I'm not a STH, but if I were, I'd feel much like you.

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12-16-2012, 10:18 PM
  #950
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They never agreed to hold talking indefinitely without Fehr. They never agreed to negotiate a final agreement without Fehr.
And since the players were informed by Fehr to hold out ,, There was never a final agreement for Fehr to come back in room for

Day 1 Players/owners make progress ,, End the meeting for night

Next day players move goal posts and all progress is gone ,, We find out that Fehr informed his players to hold out longer to get better deal

Players spend the final day of talks in "Meeting" and owners get sick of waiting ,, NHLPA shows up 2 hours later with Daly waiting for there proposal

NHL see's the NHLPA proposal is absolute garbage and reject it ,, Fehr goes before media and lies to fans/press

Nothing that week saw owners do anything wrong ,, Fehr killed everything himself

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