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2012 CBA/Lockout talk, It's not looking good VI

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Old
12-07-2012, 01:49 PM
  #301
Alberta_OReilly_Fan
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after seeing the most recent developments... have some thoughts how to get this deal done.

1/ Fehr needs to be fired. The rumor that he gets 8-10 mill for forcing the players to take a deal that he doesnt approve seems to have merit. Bite the bullet and give him his blood money and then deal with reality.

2/ the owners 3 sticking points are all designed to protect them against themselves... but none of them effect more then around 20% of the players. The 20% of players effected are the ones paid the most anyhow. They arent being hard done by to give in to the owners on these 3 issues. They are still the most rewarded members of the union. So just bite the bullet... call the owners on the carpet... but demand the pension money that is in question as condition for giving in here. Pension needs better funding anyhow. The poorest players need more help... not the richest ones.

3/ to get the season going as quick as possible... owners make a HUGE PR move and say that they will play this season under the rules of the old CBA. 1/3 of the season is gone anyhow. Let the players have 57% of the money this year and forget about the make-whole thing that is complicating matters anyhow. Fans will love the league for rushing into the season asap. The cap is so screwed up anyhow that reducing it to 50% levels would mess up alot of teams that wont have time to get their payrolls down. So play this one season under the old rules and give the teams an extra year to get compliant.

4/ one addition id make to the deal is to allow each team to EXEMPT one single contract from the cap/hrr pot. This takes the place of make whole in subsequent years. So there is no make whole at all... but now rich teams have the option to pay 1 player any amount of money they want... and the money doesnt count against the cap. It doesnt count as part of hrr. the rank and file players now have more money to split between them. rich teams bare the burden of the extra money being paid to the players... but they do it WILLINGLY. They arent being forced to do it. Poor teams are not effected by this clause. They dont need to exercise this option. They get the 50-50% they need.

With these suggestions... the poor players do better. The top 8-10 superstar players do better. The rich owners do better. The poor owners get what they need too. and maybe some lesser star players do a bit worst... but they are getting enough anyhow.

5/ and my final 2 suggestions is 1 that bettman gets asked to take an early retirement as part of the solution. i dont hate him the way everyone else does... but he clearly is a negative PR person and the NHL will need good PR. With a 10 year deal, Bettman wouldnt be around for the next negotiation anyhow. The league doesnt need a lawyer in charge for the next 10 years. So get a hockey friendly guy as the figurehead for awhile. My suggestion is Wayne Gretzky. He wouldnt actually be making any tough decesions about the game. His hockey department can be full of lawyers working under him that can make any tough decesions. Gretzky would just become a goodwill ambassador that would repair the relations between owners/players. He can do tours to all the cities and meet and greet fans to rekindle their love for hockey. He can actually award the cup at the end of the year without being booed.

and 2, promise the union that the league will expand two new teams during this next CBA or forfeit a 200 million dollar penalty to the players pension. 2 new franchises will mean some 50 new union jobs. Toronto needs a second team... Quebec is ready for a team once their new building is operational. Weak market teams are being protected by a 50/50 split so none of them need to move now. It is time for expansion to make an even number of teams again.

If the players get 2 new teams and the idea that i have of the top few superstars not getting paid out of their share of the 50/50 split then they definitely need to give in on contract length and front loaded deals.

Fire Fehr... force Bettman into the sunset... and then make a reasonable deal that benefits both sides but also makes us fans happy too cause without making us fans happy this is going to get real ugly anyhow even when they do come back. 50/50 split of a pot that shrinks 10-20-30% probably ends up leaving them all in worst shape anyhow so these guys better wake up and realize that it will be very important to come back in a way that repairs the attitude of us fans.

Fehr and Bettman need to go... and a deal needs to be brought back quick as human possible

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12-07-2012, 01:50 PM
  #302
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bottom line lost in all this stuff is what is the vision of the game if the season is lost?

Imagine yourself with nothing to lose?

it would play out like a movie where the owners would be past reason and bury the players

they still are the owners- and good luck decertifying and starting another league

Fehr may not like it but he has to blink because the owners have gone this far already and their reputation, league, game is crumbling- they will ABSOLUTELY pass it on to whatever players want to play

Its also very weird that so many stars are over in Europe playing and not as emotionally involved in this as they should.

Worst part is lack of a known drop dead date. I wish it was today to be honest

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12-07-2012, 01:51 PM
  #303
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It is kind of silly when you think about it. On one side, you have owners who presumably have extensive business and contract experience and who may even have legal backgrounds. On the other side, you have players who do not do much directly in the business world and who probably almost always have agents or other representatives handle deals for them. While you can make progress with the spirit of a contract, the nuts and bolts have to be handled by professionals. Furthermore, the owners surely have more negotiating experience than the players, as far as haggling and fighting over terms. It's just not a fair fight. I can't blame the players for wanting to bring in their representation and it has to make them suspicious that the owners squawked about that. Fehr is a pill but do you really expect the players to execute a CBA without their union head?

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12-07-2012, 01:51 PM
  #304
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12-07-2012, 01:54 PM
  #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
after seeing the most recent developments... have some thoughts how to get this deal done.

1/ Fehr needs to be fired. The rumor that he gets 8-10 mill for forcing the players to take a deal that he doesnt approve seems to have merit. Bite the bullet and give him his blood money and then deal with reality.

2/ the owners 3 sticking points are all designed to protect them against themselves... but none of them effect more then around 20% of the players. The 20% of players effected are the ones paid the most anyhow. They arent being hard done by to give in to the owners on these 3 issues. They are still the most rewarded members of the union. So just bite the bullet... call the owners on the carpet... but demand the pension money that is in question as condition for giving in here. Pension needs better funding anyhow. The poorest players need more help... not the richest ones.

3/ to get the season going as quick as possible... owners make a HUGE PR move and say that they will play this season under the rules of the old CBA. 1/3 of the season is gone anyhow. Let the players have 57% of the money this year and forget about the make-whole thing that is complicating matters anyhow. Fans will love the league for rushing into the season asap. The cap is so screwed up anyhow that reducing it to 50% levels would mess up alot of teams that wont have time to get their payrolls down. So play this one season under the old rules and give the teams an extra year to get compliant.

4/ one addition id make to the deal is to allow each team to EXEMPT one single contract from the cap/hrr pot. This takes the place of make whole in subsequent years. So there is no make whole at all... but now rich teams have the option to pay 1 player any amount of money they want... and the money doesnt count against the cap. It doesnt count as part of hrr. the rank and file players now have more money to split between them. rich teams bare the burden of the extra money being paid to the players... but they do it WILLINGLY. They arent being forced to do it. Poor teams are not effected by this clause. They dont need to exercise this option. They get the 50-50% they need.

With these suggestions... the poor players do better. The top 8-10 superstar players do better. The rich owners do better. The poor owners get what they need too. and maybe some lesser star players do a bit worst... but they are getting enough anyhow.

5/ and my final 2 suggestions is 1 that bettman gets asked to take an early retirement as part of the solution. i dont hate him the way everyone else does... but he clearly is a negative PR person and the NHL will need good PR. With a 10 year deal, Bettman wouldnt be around for the next negotiation anyhow. The league doesnt need a lawyer in charge for the next 10 years. So get a hockey friendly guy as the figurehead for awhile. My suggestion is Wayne Gretzky. He wouldnt actually be making any tough decesions about the game. His hockey department can be full of lawyers working under him that can make any tough decesions. Gretzky would just become a goodwill ambassador that would repair the relations between owners/players. He can do tours to all the cities and meet and greet fans to rekindle their love for hockey. He can actually award the cup at the end of the year without being booed.

and 2, promise the union that the league will expand two new teams during this next CBA or forfeit a 200 million dollar penalty to the players pension. 2 new franchises will mean some 50 new union jobs. Toronto needs a second team... Quebec is ready for a team once their new building is operational. Weak market teams are being protected by a 50/50 split so none of them need to move now. It is time for expansion to make an even number of teams again.

If the players get 2 new teams and the idea that i have of the top few superstars not getting paid out of their share of the 50/50 split then they definitely need to give in on contract length and front loaded deals.

Fire Fehr... force Bettman into the sunset... and then make a reasonable deal that benefits both sides but also makes us fans happy too cause without making us fans happy this is going to get real ugly anyhow even when they do come back. 50/50 split of a pot that shrinks 10-20-30% probably ends up leaving them all in worst shape anyhow so these guys better wake up and realize that it will be very important to come back in a way that repairs the attitude of us fans.

Fehr and Bettman need to go... and a deal needs to be brought back quick as human possible
where do I sign?

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Old
12-07-2012, 01:55 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Black Eye View Post
It is kind of silly when you think about it. On one side, you have owners who presumably have extensive business and contract experience and who may even have legal backgrounds. On the other side, you have players who do not do much directly in the business world and who probably almost always have agents or other representatives handle deals for them. While you can make progress with the spirit of a contract, the nuts and bolts have to be handled by professionals. Furthermore, the owners surely have more negotiating experience than the players, as far as haggling and fighting over terms. It's just not a fair fight. I can't blame the players for wanting to bring in their representation and it has to make them suspicious that the owners squawked about that. Fehr is a pill but do you really expect the players to execute a CBA without their union head?
^
Steve Fehr was in room

Its not like it was only Owners/Players

Fehr was there to handle all the legal/economic/etc that players would need help with

Steve Fehr unlike his brother has shown an ability to be reasonable. He doesn't grandstand and doesn't do stuff like delay meetings to take 20 minutes to get water , etc

Donald Fehr is toxic to process.. The NHLPA has Steve Fehr and a legion of lawyers/reps who can handle the process without him

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12-07-2012, 01:56 PM
  #307
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bottom line lost in all this stuff is what is the vision of the game if the season is lost?

Imagine yourself with nothing to lose?

it would play out like a movie where the owners would be past reason and bury the players

they still are the owners- and good luck decertifying and starting another league

Fehr may not like it but he has to blink because the owners have gone this far already and their reputation, league, game is crumbling- they will ABSOLUTELY pass it on to whatever players want to play

Its also very weird that so many stars are over in Europe playing and not as emotionally involved in this as they should.

Worst part is lack of a known drop dead date. I wish it was today to be honest
Got to think Fehr is going to keep negotiating right up to the drop dead date whenever ownership decides to set it. And why wouldn't he?

Ownership doesnt feel they have anything really at stake at the moment- JJ can walk away today with nothing lost, but walking away from an entire season is a little different. Hell Bettman will be facing a personal legacy as the only comissioner in the history of sports to preside over two lost seasons.

Until owners and Bettman have something real at stake to lose, they won't offer the players what they can.

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12-07-2012, 01:57 PM
  #308
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Worst part is lack of a known drop dead date. I wish it was today to be honest
I keep hearing this December 15th date as the date when the owners really want to do the deal. I have no idea where that comes from but I keep hearing it. Anybody know what that's about?

The last season was called in early February I believe. I guess we have another 6 weeks of shenanigans before all is lost. I still think - as you said DKH - some calls happen over the established channels and it gets back on track, begrudgingly, and probably within 4-5 days. Maybe I'm delusional and this was it. If they burn off December with no deal, I'll probably think the season is over unofficially at least. That would mean they were not close enough to sort out a handful of gnarly issues that are left.

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Old
12-07-2012, 01:59 PM
  #309
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Steve Fehr was in room
True. But what is his role in the negotiations compared to his brother's? I have the impression that S Fehr is more concerned with the mechanics of the contract work and facilitating the communication, not so much the decision making around the actual terms. But maybe I'm all wet there.

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12-07-2012, 02:00 PM
  #310
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As for the issues, I know were on opposite sides of it. You a teacher (presumably represented by a union) and I employed by a merit-shop (non-union) contractor.

Maybe if they do play again, and EM does make it back into the building, we can get a beer or 2. Maybe with DKH as well.. I have not seen him in a while either.
I am not super pro-union, but I am super pro-fairness. These things only work if they are fair to both sides. I have always thought the MLBPA is way too powerful.

I think I have been very fair to the owners side of this, and fair to owners in general.

We can get a beer at a local bar and help that small business owner without me givign money to Jacobs.

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Old
12-07-2012, 02:00 PM
  #311
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bottom line lost in all this stuff is what is the vision of the game if the season is lost?

Imagine yourself with nothing to lose?

it would play out like a movie where the owners would be past reason and bury the players

they still are the owners- and good luck decertifying and starting another league

Fehr may not like it but he has to blink because the owners have gone this far already and their reputation, league, game is crumbling- they will ABSOLUTELY pass it on to whatever players want to play

Its also very weird that so many stars are over in Europe playing and not as emotionally involved in this as they should.

Worst part is lack of a known drop dead date. I wish it was today to be honest
no way the players can start another league that could compete. If they decertify and the owners start siging players to start up the NHL again I bet by 10 players in we see some current NHLPA guys breaking ranks and running right back to the stabililty and cash of the NHL owners.

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12-07-2012, 02:03 PM
  #312
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Have to think the owners would love to have 'Opening Night' on xmas day.. Gut says season is gonzo... Cmon April,,, napoli & victorino to entertain us,, ughhh

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12-07-2012, 02:06 PM
  #313
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Just heard an idea floated out on the Oilers Now lunch show... it deals with the idea that if the union continues to insist on revenue sharing then why dont the owners just contract 6 teams instead?

rather then commit to an ongoing fee of say 200 million dollars year after year to the small markets... do a one time buyout of around 200 million per team to get rid of the six bottom teams.

This would give the 24 surviving teams a benefit of having better players. The TV contract in the USA might suffer a little... but it's peanuts anyhow. The TV deal in Canada shouldnt suffer at all.

What would obviously suffer though is some 150 union jobs gone. If the union is still using revenue sharing or decertification as threats... i guess its fair game for the owners to toss out an idea of this sort just as a friendly shot across the bow.

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12-07-2012, 02:10 PM
  #314
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no way the players can start another league that could compete. If they decertify and the owners start siging players to start up the NHL again I bet by 10 players in we see some current NHLPA guys breaking ranks and running right back to the stabililty and cash of the NHL owners.
Yup, and their will be no cap, no draft, and it will be total chaos.

The league will be 6 teams.

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12-07-2012, 02:11 PM
  #315
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Steve Goldstein ‏@goldieonice

on radio,@TSNBobMcKenzie "there are a lot of players and agents that said, I don't want to lose the season over this. let's take the deal"

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12-07-2012, 02:15 PM
  #316
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Yup, and their will be no cap, no draft, and it will be total chaos.

The league will be 6 teams.
you mean the new NHL or the players league?

If the owners are smart (we know that is debatable) they would create a CBA that would attract players but at the same time keep the league stable without having to deal with the NHLPA they can put in the 5 year contract limit and put in the HRR split they want.

They have the financial backing and it might take a few years but players would come running back once it started. in the end its all about the money for the owners and players. The only way for the players to get it is to get paid by the owners.

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12-07-2012, 02:20 PM
  #317
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Chia for Commish, soon as the B's rattle off a few more Cup wins!!

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12-07-2012, 02:21 PM
  #318
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What deal, though?

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12-07-2012, 02:31 PM
  #319
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I am not super pro-union, but I am super pro-fairness. These things only work if they are fair to both sides. I have always thought the MLBPA is way too powerful.

I think I have been very fair to the owners side of this, and fair to owners in general.

We can get a beer at a local bar and help that small business owner without me givign money to Jacobs.
Sports Grille it is. Pitcher of Molson so we can help the Habs ownership to spite JJ.

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12-07-2012, 02:32 PM
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Chia for Commish, soon as the B's rattle off a few more Cup wins!!
IMO, Burke would be perfect for it.

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12-07-2012, 02:34 PM
  #321
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What deal, though?
Probably the latest owners proposal. The one they were discussing for a few days in the player-owner meetings.

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12-07-2012, 02:41 PM
  #322
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IMO, Burke would be perfect for it.
Replace the suspensions for head hits with suspensions for diving, or backing down from a fight. OK don't replace them but add the new ones

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12-07-2012, 02:45 PM
  #323
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Replace the suspensions for head hits with suspensions for diving, or backing down from a fight. OK don't replace them but add the new ones
What this sport needs most is a promoter. Bettman is self loathing when he talked about the NHL, Burke comes off as proud. Plus, his a lawyer and has worked for the league already.

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12-07-2012, 02:50 PM
  #324
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Chia for Commish, soon as the B's rattle off a few more Cup wins!!
A few more Cup wins and I won't care if Lady Gaga becomes Commish!

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12-07-2012, 02:51 PM
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IMO, Burke would be perfect for it.
Yeah I can see him being objective and measured enough to respect both sides and humble enough not to put his own agenda or ego in front of the common good.


Oh no wait...he's the last person I'd trust to do any of those things.

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