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2012 CBA/Lockout talk, It's not looking good VI

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Old
12-07-2012, 03:53 PM
  #326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
IMO, Burke would be perfect for it.
I think he's pretty perfect right where he is, thank you very much!

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12-07-2012, 04:03 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Black Eye View Post
Yep. Only time will tell. But you have to believe if they literally pull back everything they have offered up that they wil go back to being far away from a deal and it will be a long time until it's closed. It could happen. I just find it hard to believe the owners, after they calm down, will believe this is the card they really want to play. It sends a message. If it softens the players proposal, it worked. If it's more than a message, if it's a final decision, it's a killer and I would have to wonder how it helps them. It may satiate their anger but they will notice $0 going into the bank every day and I believe that's called "cutting off your nose to spite your face."
Depends, losing one season isn't likely as ominous to the owners, who are more often then not into the NHL for many years then it is to players who often have shorter careers. We're talking at least 8 years, but also a precedent in CBA negotiations next time around. If you don't get the 5 year limit now you need to wait until the CBA expires and fight for it all over again. If you don't get variance now you need to live with cap circumvention until the next CBA when you have to fight for it all over again. At a time when most teams aren't making money anyway (if Forbes is even close to accurate) would it not make more sense to make your stand now?

Who knows, perhaps the NHL puts the offer back on the table at some point to get this thing moving, but can anyone really see them giving more? I can't, so why hold out at this point? Every day just equates to more lost salaries for players that they'll never recoup.

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12-07-2012, 04:03 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
Just heard an idea floated out on the Oilers Now lunch show... it deals with the idea that if the union continues to insist on revenue sharing then why dont the owners just contract 6 teams instead?

rather then commit to an ongoing fee of say 200 million dollars year after year to the small markets... do a one time buyout of around 200 million per team to get rid of the six bottom teams.

This would give the 24 surviving teams a benefit of having better players. The TV contract in the USA might suffer a little... but it's peanuts anyhow. The TV deal in Canada shouldnt suffer at all.

What would obviously suffer though is some 150 union jobs gone. If the union is still using revenue sharing or decertification as threats... i guess its fair game for the owners to toss out an idea of this sort just as a friendly shot across the bow.
You cant just fold teams

BOG would need to buyout the current owners and pay any fees/penalties in relation to leases

It is not realisitc

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12-07-2012, 04:07 PM
  #329
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Yeah I can see him being objective and measured enough to respect both sides and humble enough not to put his own agenda or ego in front of the common good.


Oh no wait...he's the last person I'd trust to do any of those things.
You had me very confused for a sentence or two there.

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12-07-2012, 04:11 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by JMiller View Post
Got to think Fehr is going to keep negotiating right up to the drop dead date whenever ownership decides to set it. And why wouldn't he?

Ownership doesnt feel they have anything really at stake at the moment- JJ can walk away today with nothing lost, but walking away from an entire season is a little different. Hell Bettman will be facing a personal legacy as the only comissioner in the history of sports to preside over two lost seasons.

Until owners and Bettman have something real at stake to lose, they won't offer the players what they can.
yes, there is going to be that moment when both sides know this is it. Fehr to me based on that comment 'we can get more' is weighing the pressure Bettman is under and his legacy. He is going to push it probably right to the end when the season is done.

The league will probably take 20 years to recover, likely 150 players will never play in the NHL again, the money will be lost, but future earnings reduced.

Sponsers will be crazy to pony up large sums to this league and can probably get great value.

They will be a punch line for years and years and years


it is this why they will settle- both will live maybe not happily ever after but good enough; if they don't they will have done damage they both KNOW they will regret

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12-07-2012, 04:11 PM
  #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
You cant just fold teams

BOG would need to buyout the current owners and pay any fees/penalties in relation to leases

It is not realisitc
yes theres two options... hand 200 million a year to revenue share ongoing year after year... or use the same money to buy out the teams.

how unrealistic is it?

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Old
12-07-2012, 04:14 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
yes theres two options... hand 200 million a year to revenue share ongoing year after year... or use the same money to buy out the teams.

how unrealistic is it?
It would cost alot more then $200 million to buyout and fold 6 franchies

Take 6 lowest valued teams and add up there value then add the costs to terminate there arena committments

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12-07-2012, 04:23 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
Sports Grille it is. Pitcher of Molson so we can help the Habs ownership to spite JJ.
Even my spite has limits.

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Old
12-07-2012, 04:27 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by patty59 View Post
Probably the latest owners proposal. The one they were discussing for a few days in the player-owner meetings.
Isn't that the one Bettman has pulled off the table?

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12-07-2012, 04:30 PM
  #335
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Haven't really been following this, looks like the season's toast though. Who should I be mad at the most?
The league and the union... not necessarily in that order.

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12-07-2012, 04:55 PM
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Isn't that the one Bettman has pulled off the table?
Yeah, the one that the players seemed to be liking until Fehr told em to hold out and get more...

Depending upon who you believe of course.

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Old
12-07-2012, 04:59 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Yeah, the one that the players seemed to be liking until Fehr told em to hold out and get more...

Depending upon who you believe of course.
I wonder if it would split the owner ranks if the players said, "We agree to everything, but since you want to model this after the NBA deal we want a soft cap/luxury tax system in lieu of a hard cap."

Imagine the pressure on Leafs or Candians ownership if their fans found out they were against that proposal? Or Detroit and Chicago?

Jeremy Jacobs is a saint and Boston fans would weep for him for being in such a difficult situation.

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12-07-2012, 05:04 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
I wonder if it would split the owner ranks if the players said, "We agree to everything, but since you want to model this after the NBA deal we want a soft cap/luxury tax system in lieu of a hard cap."

Imagine the pressure on Leafs or Candians ownership if their fans found out they were against that proposal? Or Detroit and Chicago?

Jeremy Jacobs is a saint and Boston fans would weep for him for being in such a difficult situation.
I would imagine the owners were split more then the players until yesterday...Did you happen to read the comments from the moderate owners who were in the meeting? Fascinating.

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12-07-2012, 05:07 PM
  #339
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I will say this too - I think the NBA would benefit more from a hard cap and the NHL more from a luxury tax.

Basketball is far far far more dependant on having a superstar, a top 5 or 10 guy. Historically you can't win a title without a top player. Hockey lends itself far more to being able to build a team that can win without a Top 5 player (though that clearly helps).

So teams that had to pay a fine for trying to build a championship would have to do so at a premium with far less of a guarantee they could.

The NBA would be more competitive if they could avoid super teams that hog the few top players that are capable of wining. A hard cap would do that.

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12-07-2012, 05:08 PM
  #340
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When a guy like this...

Ron has received numerous honors and awards from labor including the AFL-CIO Murray Green Meany Kirkland Community Service Award [30] and The Los Angeles County Federation of Labor Man of the Year.[31]

Says this...

Ron Burkle, Co-Owner, Pittsburgh Penguins

"The idea to put players and owners together in the same room was a refreshing idea. Commissioner Bettman should be thanked for proposing it and the Fehrs should be thanked for agreeing to it.

The players came with a strong desire to get back to playing hockey. They were professional and did a good job of expressing their concerns and listening to ours. We wanted to move quickly and decisively. We have all spent too much time without any real progress at the expense of our fans, our sponsors and the communities we serve. It was time to make bold moves and get a deal. Many people think we got over our skis and they are probably right, but we wanted to do everything we could to get back to hockey now. We didn't hold back.

We made substantial movement on our end quickly, but unfortunately that was not met with the same level of movement from the other side. The players asked us to be patient and keep working with them. |t's not what they do and they wanted us to know they were committed.

We understood and appreciate their situation. We came back with an aggressive commitment to pensions which we felt was well received. We needed a response on key items that were important to us, but we were optimistic that we were down to very few issues. I believe a deal was within reach.

We were therefore surprised when the Fehrs made a unilateral and "non-negotiable" decision - which is their right, to end the player/owner process that has moved us farther in two days than we have moved at any time in the past months.

I want to thank the players involved for their hard work as we tried to reach a deal.

I hope that going backwards does not prevent a deal."


You think maybe the union has some issues?

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12-07-2012, 05:09 PM
  #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
I would imagine the owners were split more then the players until yesterday...Did you happen to read the comments from the moderate owners who were in the meeting? Fascinating.
Am I crazy for taking anything from the owners or players with giant grains of salt?

The owners have always been pretty unified, probably since they know 8 guys lone can stop anything, so back-biting each other literally does nothing to help them but only hurts them.

I didn't say anything about it, but everyone taking those comments like they are pure fact just made me shrug my shoulders.

If you are pro-one side 100% you believe what you want and that is that.

I just listen to both sides and know that they are just shades of the truth or just different views of the truth.

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Old
12-07-2012, 05:21 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
Am I crazy for taking anything from the owners or players with giant grains of salt?

The owners have always been pretty unified, probably since they know 8 guys lone can stop anything, so back-biting each other literally does nothing to help them but only hurts them.

I didn't say anything about it, but everyone taking those comments like they are pure fact just made me shrug my shoulders.

If you are pro-one side 100% you believe what you want and that is that.

I just listen to both sides and know that they are just shades of the truth or just different views of the truth.
Not pure fact, but I tend to give them a little more credence then from Jacobs or Bettman.... These are the guys who really, really want a deal.

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12-07-2012, 05:24 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Not pure fact, but I tend to give them a little more credence then from Jacobs or Bettman.... These are the guys who really, really want a deal.
Agree, but again, what are they supposed to say? Even if they wanted a deal, if they absolutely were told by 8 owners "this aint happening unless these things absolutely happen" they have no choice but to say what they said.

Unless they are total morons, but those guys were probably intentionally left behind.

Oh, and everyone, no matter how you feel, should read this.

http://www.mc79hockey.com/?p=5098

I wish I dun be smarters like some people. He isn't sure this analysis is right, but he isn't sure it is wrong.

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Old
12-07-2012, 05:24 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by DKH View Post
yes, there is going to be that moment when both sides know this is it. Fehr to me based on that comment 'we can get more' is weighing the pressure Bettman is under and his legacy. He is going to push it probably right to the end when the season is done.

The league will probably take 20 years to recover, likely 150 players will never play in the NHL again, the money will be lost, but future earnings reduced.

Sponsers will be crazy to pony up large sums to this league and can probably get great value.

They will be a punch line for years and years and years

it is this why they will settle- both will live maybe not happily ever after but good enough; if they don't they will have done damage they both KNOW they will regret
This is the part I'm not so sure of, Dan. I'm sure the owners get the stakes. Do the players?

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12-07-2012, 05:39 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
after seeing the most recent developments... have some thoughts how to get this deal done.

1/ Fehr needs to be fired. The rumor that he gets 8-10 mill for forcing the players to take a deal that he doesnt approve seems to have merit. Bite the bullet and give him his blood money and then deal with reality.
There's enough nonsense going around even when sticking to the truth.

Quote:
The latest, though, Slap Shots has learned, is this rumor circulating through the Board that Fehr has a clause in his contract under which he would receive an $8 million payment should the PA vote to accept a CBA against his recommendation.

“Nonsense ... comical,” Fehr said once he stopped laughing when asked about it yesterday. “I’d say that I only wish I were that good a negotiator for myself, except that I don’t even want to joke about it.”

It all appears to be part of a strategy to paint Fehr as unethical in order to undermine his influence with the players.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...YRGeiAMY3xF1QN

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12-07-2012, 05:44 PM
  #346
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Who knows, perhaps the NHL puts the offer back on the table at some point to get this thing moving, but can anyone really see them giving more? I can't, so why hold out at this point? Every day just equates to more lost salaries for players that they'll never recoup.
seems like fehr is certain the NHL will bend at least one more time, and when brilliant minds like scottie upshall are talking about 'see you in january when you need us' (yadda, yadda), i'm assuming that's not upshall talking...but rather repeating the 'company line' from meetings.

will they bend again? nobody knows. history suggests the NHL isn't afraid to shut the league down. so i'm guessing a lot of players out there are likely antsy/nervous right now - wondering if fehr pushed a guy one too many times and instead of the opponent keeping calm, fehr instead got his face broken in 4 places. me? i would've gone to the mat in october, fought for as many dollars/concessions as possible, and ensured an 82 game season so nobody lost a paycheck.

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12-07-2012, 05:44 PM
  #347
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Katie Baker, via Grantland:

Quote:
For all the sound and fury, it seems clear the question of who will come out ahead in this deal has been settled: Almost all of the meaningful movement to this point has come from the players' side. They agreed to a 50-50 revenue split, down from the 57 percent they have been receiving. They budged on contract term limits and the length of the CBA (though not far enough to satisfy the NHL; those issues are two of the remaining sticking points). They submitted, implicitly, to the idea that teams may not wind up paying in full all the contracts that their front offices offered and inked — some of them just weeks before the expiration of the last CBA.
http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...nd-him-hi-gary

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12-07-2012, 06:12 PM
  #348
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The owners already will have a drop dead date on the season. That much I'm sure of and hopefully it's still weeks away.

In the mean time what I'd like to see is the Moderates put together a similar deal as what they thought they were close on and request it be put to a vote by the Bargaining Unit. If Fehr refuses, then me, I'd pull the plug.

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12-07-2012, 06:14 PM
  #349
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
When a guy like this...

Ron has received numerous honors and awards from labor including the AFL-CIO Murray Green Meany Kirkland Community Service Award [30] and The Los Angeles County Federation of Labor Man of the Year.[31]

Says this...

Ron Burkle, Co-Owner, Pittsburgh Penguins

"The idea to put players and owners together in the same room was a refreshing idea. Commissioner Bettman should be thanked for proposing it and the Fehrs should be thanked for agreeing to it.

The players came with a strong desire to get back to playing hockey. They were professional and did a good job of expressing their concerns and listening to ours. We wanted to move quickly and decisively. We have all spent too much time without any real progress at the expense of our fans, our sponsors and the communities we serve. It was time to make bold moves and get a deal. Many people think we got over our skis and they are probably right, but we wanted to do everything we could to get back to hockey now. We didn't hold back.

We made substantial movement on our end quickly, but unfortunately that was not met with the same level of movement from the other side. The players asked us to be patient and keep working with them. |t's not what they do and they wanted us to know they were committed.

We understood and appreciate their situation. We came back with an aggressive commitment to pensions which we felt was well received. We needed a response on key items that were important to us, but we were optimistic that we were down to very few issues. I believe a deal was within reach.

We were therefore surprised when the Fehrs made a unilateral and "non-negotiable" decision - which is their right, to end the player/owner process that has moved us farther in two days than we have moved at any time in the past months.

I want to thank the players involved for their hard work as we tried to reach a deal.

I hope that going backwards does not prevent a deal."


You think maybe the union has some issues?
Burkle could have the congressional medal of Jesus around his neck, but if he's across the table he ain't looking out for the players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
No question. If you avoid the day to day nonsense being spewed out about what hill owners are willing to die on, it pretty clear that they're debating a clean sweep vs taking the series in five games.

Helll, the fact they're pushing for a 10 year cba should be a pretty good indication of what thy think of it at this point.


Last edited by JMiller: 12-07-2012 at 06:21 PM.
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Old
12-07-2012, 06:56 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
It would cost alot more then $200 million to buyout and fold 6 franchies

Take 6 lowest valued teams and add up there value then add the costs to terminate there arena committments
the difference is 200,000,000 on an ongoing basis year aftrr year after year after year or a 1 time by out

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