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2012 CBA/Lockout talk, It's not looking good VI

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Old
12-06-2012, 10:03 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Black Eye View Post
This I agree with. At some point, which probably passed awhile ago, the players lose so much top line revenue that they will never get it back by fighting over terms that net them comparatively small $ gains. I still don't quite understand why they will take the plane into the mountain and leave > $1B on the table in the process.
I think it's something that regualr people will never understand. I caould never imagine giving up a years salary based on principle. It's outrageous, unimagineable and something none of us will likely ever understand.

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12-06-2012, 10:03 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Black Eye View Post
This I agree with. At some point, which probably passed awhile ago, the players lose so much top line revenue that they will never get it back by fighting over terms that net them comparatively small $ gains. I still don't quite understand why they will take the plane into the mountain and leave > $1B on the table in the process.
That is it. The best deal the players could get was for a full 82 games season. The more time they take to get a deal, the more they'll lose.

And after their latest stupid attempt to negotiate what was supposedly said to be important non negotiable points for the owners, they more than likely lose even more.

Key word: stupid.

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12-06-2012, 10:07 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by patty59 View Post
I think it's something that regualr people will never understand. I caould never imagine giving up a years salary based on principle. It's outrageous, unimagineable and something none of us will likely ever understand.
Patty (and anyone else) please read this without any snark, because I don't mean it as anything but sincere.

Which is it?

Are they are stubborn and more concerned with principles and "winning" this than they are with their own financial interests?

Or are they greedy?

Because they obviously know the money from this season is gone, and that this is now a fight about long term issues, which overwhelmingly benefits future players.

If you think that what they are doing is stupid that is totally fine, and God knows that they might be reading this all wrong and the owners are not moving and they better get while the getting is good.

But they can't be stubbornly principled AND greedy, that doesn't make sense.

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12-06-2012, 10:10 PM
  #54
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That was a legendary presser from Bettman.. holy cow.

The players have to be LIVID with Fehr... he more or less cost them 300 million dollars in the make whole in less than 30 minutes

EDIT - and possibly the season.

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12-06-2012, 10:11 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
Patty (and anyone else) please read this without any snark, because I don't mean it as anything but sincere.

Which is it?

Are they are stubborn and more concerned with principles and "winning" this than they are with their own financial interests?

Or are they greedy?

Because they obviously know the money from this season is gone, and that this is now a fight about long term issues, which overwhelmingly benefits future players.

If you think that what they are doing is stupid that is totally fine, and God knows that they might be reading this all wrong and the owners are not moving and they better get while the getting is good.

But they can't be stubbornly principled AND greedy, that doesn't make sense.
Players keep saying its not the money its principles, but we know its the greed.

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12-06-2012, 10:12 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Spooner st View Post
Players keep saying its not the money its principles, but we know its the greed.
I don't understand how it can be, considering the fight at this point only makes sense for the players in a long term way, which seems to be the opposite of being greedy.

What am I missing?

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12-06-2012, 10:13 PM
  #57
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From the Main Board

adater ‏@adater
Bottom line here: Players say they are unified, but not what I'm hearing from this depth player. They'll deny that publicly, but...

adater ‏@adater
....privately, they are feeling powerless as the Ryan Millers and Brad Richards of the world pretend this is a sacrifice for them

https://twitter.com/adater/status/276880663850934273

adater ‏@adater
This depth player is wicked smart though. May put his name to comments soon. Sorry for anonymous tilt to this. not my style

https://twitter.com/adater/status/276881270028509184

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12-06-2012, 10:13 PM
  #58
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At this point Mike, I am at a loss and don't even know what is driving their bus at the moment. I read things like what Dater said about Fehr telling them they can do better, I guess that could be seen as greed. But then when you sit down and think about what they are losing by not accepting a deal, you just think they are operating on pride.

It coul be either, who knows? And it really doesn't matter. But when you look at the stuff they're asking for it doesn't ake sense for them to be losing this much money over them.

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12-06-2012, 10:15 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by patty59 View Post
At this point Mike, I am at a loss and don't even know what is driving their bus at the moment. I read things like what Dater said about Fehr telling them they can do better, I guess that could be seen as greed. But then when you sit down and think about what they are losing by not accepting a deal, you just think they are operating on pride.

It coul be either, who knows? And it really doesn't matter. But when you look at the stuff they're asking for it doesn't ake sense for them to be losing this much money over them.
Alright, so I'm not crazy right, they can't be both stubbornly principled AND greedy, right?

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12-06-2012, 10:15 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
Patty (and anyone else) please read this without any snark, because I don't mean it as anything but sincere.

Which is it?

Are they are stubborn and more concerned with principles and "winning" this than they are with their own financial interests?

Or are they greedy?

Because they obviously know the money from this season is gone, and that this is now a fight about long term issues, which overwhelmingly benefits future players.

If you think that what they are doing is stupid that is totally fine, and God knows that they might be reading this all wrong and the owners are not moving and they better get while the getting is good.

But they can't be stubbornly principled AND greedy, that doesn't make sense.
Not to speak for him, but outwardly and publicly they are "stubbornly principled".. It's all about 'just wanting to play' or sacrificing for the players of the future blah blah

BUT when they are given what is generally agreed to be a pretty damn good deal, instead of taking it and playing, they try and eek a little bit more out of it.. in the process, insulting the owners who gave an extra 100 million on top of it all. It's one thing to insult or intimidate Bettman and Daly.. it's another when Tennebaum and Beckle along with other moderate owners come to sit down and you insult them.

And now? now the season is in jeopardy and now the Make Whole is COMPLETELY off the table. Fehr will try and get his constituents to be angry at the NHL for this... but I think FAR more will be pissed at Fehr.

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Old
12-06-2012, 10:17 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
Alright, so I'm not crazy right, they can't be both stubbornly principled AND greedy, right?
I still say a major factor in this whole thing for the players side is that voice whispering in their ear - D Fehr, S Fehr, other union leaders, some agents - that they are being taken advantage of and to hang tough. That's how tough negotiations go.

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12-06-2012, 10:18 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by SerenityRick View Post
Not to speak for him, but outwardly and publicly they are "stubbornly principled".. It's all about 'just wanting to play' or sacrificing for the players of the future blah blah

BUT when they are given what is generally agreed to be a pretty damn good deal, instead of taking it and playing, they try and eek a little bit more out of it.. in the process, insulting the owners who gave an extra 100 million on top of it all. It's one thing to insult or intimidate Bettman and Daly.. it's another when Tennebaum and Beckle along with other moderate owners come to sit down and you insult them.

And now? now the season is in jeopardy and now the Make Whole is COMPLETELY off the table. Fehr will try and get his constituents to be angry at the NHL for this... but I think FAR more will be pissed at Fehr.
Not sure how you can say this as fact. The players are the only ones giving up anything. To a league that has done nothing but grow since 04.

And people talk about Make Whole like the owners are doing them a favor. Let us please not forget Make Whole = Pay SOME of the Money They Agreed to Pay the Players.

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12-06-2012, 10:19 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
Alright, so I'm not crazy right, they can't be both stubbornly principled AND greedy, right?
I don't think they can be both and make it work. In the end I think we could agree that they want to get as much as they can(greed I suppose) but I think they're more slanted toward some sort of moral victory. Then you have to think there is a faction that just wants to get back to hockey.

I have no idea, but no, I don't think they can be both.

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12-06-2012, 10:20 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SerenityRick View Post
Not to speak for him, but outwardly and publicly they are "stubbornly principled".. It's all about 'just wanting to play' or sacrificing for the players of the future blah blah

BUT when they are given what is generally agreed to be a pretty damn good deal, instead of taking it and playing, they try and eek a little bit more out of it.. in the process, insulting the owners who gave an extra 100 million on top of it all. It's one thing to insult or intimidate Bettman and Daly.. it's another when Tennebaum and Beckle along with other moderate owners come to sit down and you insult them.

And now? now the season is in jeopardy and now the Make Whole is COMPLETELY off the table. Fehr will try and get his constituents to be angry at the NHL for this... but I think FAR more will be pissed at Fehr.

Anyone with a brain will see through this, just as we all did earlier today with that statement he made, then against after he got absolutely lambasted by Bettman.

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12-06-2012, 10:21 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Alycat View Post
adater ‏@adater
Bottom line here: Players say they are unified, but not what I'm hearing from this depth player. They'll deny that publicly, but...

adater ‏@adater
....privately, they are feeling powerless as the Ryan Millers and Brad Richards of the world pretend this is a sacrifice for them

https://twitter.com/adater/status/276880663850934273

adater ‏@adater
This depth player is wicked smart though. May put his name to comments soon. Sorry for anonymous tilt to this. not my style

https://twitter.com/adater/status/276881270028509184
Hmmm.I think "wicked smart" is a clue here.

I think the player is Shawn Thornton.

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12-06-2012, 10:21 PM
  #66
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Don Fehr is making a fool of himself.

Don't see how you still fully blame the owners after today.

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12-06-2012, 10:22 PM
  #67
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I dont like a lot of people. I reserve "hate" for just a few. Jeremy Jacobs is one of them. He is one of the most greedy, self rightous, selfish sons of a *****. You are a disgrace to owners in Boston and to everyone who depends on the Bruins for their salary especially this time a year. The fans hate you and I hate you as well.
My sister about Jacobs


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12-06-2012, 10:22 PM
  #68
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Hmmm.I think "wicked smart" is a clue here.

I think the player is Shawn Thornton.
That would be awesome but I think it's Craig Adams (Harvard, FIL is former Gov Cellucci)

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12-06-2012, 10:23 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
Not sure how you can say this as fact. The players are the only ones giving up anything. To a league that has done nothing but grow since 04.

And people talk about Make Whole like the owners are doing them a favor. Let us please not forget Make Whole = Pay SOME of the Money They Agreed to Pay the Players.
That's not really how it works though.. you can't compare revenue from one CBA to another.. it's a whole new CBA you're negotiating. It's why I roll my eyes when players keep saying things like "Well how would YOU feel if your bosses told you to take a pay cut!?" .. Well, Mr. Player, I wasn't getting 57% of revenue that my company makes and if I was, honestly I'd completely understand that the market and economy fluctuates and that I won't be getting raises every year.

Also, revenue growth doesn't necessarily mean profit.. remember, EVERYTHING costs more. A lot of that in part is because of inflation but even gas is twice as much as it was when the last CBA was inked. When the owners pay for every single expenditure, the accumulation of those rises in costs cannot just be ignored.

When the owners are paying for everything, then yes, generally the players are going to have to be the ones that give a little back here.

EDIT - Because somehow I SERIOUSLY doubt that the players would allow the owners to save money on their trainers, doctors, chartered buses and flights, hotel rooms, practice arenas and equipment.

EDIT 2 - as for make whole, the owners do not have to give the players that.. the players can spin it any way they want in that they absolutely deserve that money but boy is reality going to smack their ass tonight when they realize they just lost 100% of that. And honestly, I'm glad they did. Hopefully it smartened them up.

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12-06-2012, 10:24 PM
  #70
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My sister about Jacobs

I have a buddy on FB saying pretty much the same thing. I'm no JJ apologist, but people like that need to drop the act already and pay the **** attention to what's really going on.

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12-06-2012, 10:26 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by SerenityRick View Post
That's not really how it works though.. you can't compare revenue from one CBA to another.. it's a whole new CBA you're negotiating. It's why I roll my eyes when players keep saying things like "Well how would YOU feel if your bosses told you to take a pay cut!?" .. Well, Mr. Player, I wasn't getting 57% of revenue that my company makes and if I was, honestly I'd completely understand that the market and economy fluctuates and that I won't be getting raises every year.

Also, revenue growth doesn't necessarily mean profit.. remember, EVERYTHING costs more. A lot of that in part is because of inflation but even gas is twice as much as it was when the last CBA was inked. When the owners pay for every single expenditure, the accumulation of those rises in costs cannot just be ignored.

When the owners are paying for everything, then yes, generally the players are going to have to be the ones that give a little back here.
Yeah, costs went up for the owners.

As did the revenue they brought in. Higher ticket prices, higher TV money, higher concessions.

The players still only got 57% of revenue.

And the owners pay for everything. That is how it works.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your point.

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12-06-2012, 10:26 PM
  #72
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That would be awesome but I think it's Craig Adams (Harvard, FIL is former Gov Cellucci)
Ooh! That could be a good choice as well.


Still hoping its Thornton though!

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12-06-2012, 10:29 PM
  #73
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That's not really how it works though.. you can't compare revenue from one CBA to another.. it's a whole new CBA you're negotiating. It's why I roll my eyes when players keep saying things like "Well how would YOU feel if your bosses told you to take a pay cut!?" .. Well, Mr. Player, I wasn't getting 57% of revenue that my company makes and if I was, honestly I'd completely understand that the market and economy fluctuates and that I won't be getting raises every year.

Also, revenue growth doesn't necessarily mean profit.. remember, EVERYTHING costs more. A lot of that in part is because of inflation but even gas is twice as much as it was when the last CBA was inked. When the owners pay for every single expenditure, the accumulation of those rises in costs cannot just be ignored.

When the owners are paying for everything, then yes, generally the players are going to have to be the ones that give a little back here.

EDIT - Because somehow I SERIOUSLY doubt that the players would allow the owners to save money on their trainers, doctors, chartered buses and flights, hotel rooms, practice arenas and equipment.

EDIT 2 - as for make whole, the owners do not have to give the players that.. the players can spin it any way they want in that they absolutely deserve that money but boy is reality going to smack their ass tonight when they realize they just lost 100% of that. And honestly, I'm glad they did. Hopefully it smartened them up.
Yeah, I also hope the super rich guys stick it to the guys that play the game.

(The players are getting no sympathy from me, I dont cry for rich guys losing money, but this attitude that the players need to be taught a lesson is strange to me.)

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Old
12-06-2012, 10:33 PM
  #74
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They are also the only side giving anything up in this new deal.

Every "concession" the owners have made is a concession from their original offer. That is a little bit different from the concessions the players agreed to.
There is no CBA in place. That old CBA was based around the landscape of the NHL 6 years ago. It's gone, finito. The concessions are based on the current landscape, not the landscape from 6 seasons ago.

50/50 is a reality. It's happening, it isn't a concession. The sooner the players get on board with that the sooner the NHL can avoid a lost season. The owners can show why 50/50 is necessary, and why the NHL needs such a split to continue to make the league viable. Make whole however is a concession, the owners gave on that large adding an additional 100 million to the pot essentially splitting the difference. Not good enough because Fehr thinks he can do better and solely because Fehr thinks he can do better.

10 years is in everyone's best interest, mainly the NHL's for a plethora of reasons. The whole "but that won't give new players a chance to be a part of a lockout" excuse Fehr threw out there is asinine. Poll the young players and ask how many want to lose a years salary to be a part of this process.

5 year contract limits hurt only high end players and likely won't even hurt them, because it eliminates cap circumvention. 90% of the players won't be affected by such a stipulation. It allows owners to insure contracts fully and prevents dead space contracts like Dipietro which do no one any good except Dipetro. 1 contract 6 years or longer in 2004, 90 in 2012. It's become an issue. Thinking it hurts 4th liners making minimum salary is ridiculous. They'll still be 4th liners and they'll still be making near the NHL minimum.

I like how Fehr avoided the player vote question in his presser. It will be put to a player vote when and only when he puts his stamp of approval on it, and that won't happen until he gets everything he wants. Put it to a vote now.

And how the hell can Don Fehr say with a straight face that "something was off the table, we don't know what that means but we'll figure it out at some point, hopefully". Every fan on this board, even the brain dead ones knows whats off the table. Say good by to make whole.


Last edited by Kaoz: 12-06-2012 at 10:38 PM.
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12-06-2012, 10:34 PM
  #75
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Alright, so I'm not crazy right, they can't be both stubbornly principled AND greedy, right?
Like it's been said, they act stubbornly principled but greed takes over at some point.

Maybe they are a new species.

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