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2012 CBA/Lockout talk, It's not looking good VI

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Old
12-07-2012, 07:00 AM
  #126
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Originally Posted by ranold26 View Post
The players are going to be in trouble if they think they'll gain by this. I liken it to going down in the Titanic. They will get less and less as everyday goes forward.... and if the NHLPA thinks they will benefit from de-certification, they're bigger buffoons that what is already apparent. The VAST majority of the players will not benefit from de-certification.
Bettman briefly touched on the rumour of decertification during his rant last night and I forget his exact words; but he indicated that if the players went down that road, they would get quite a shock.

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12-07-2012, 07:01 AM
  #127
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You think Jacobs considers all of this a mess when some are still going to pay 150 bucks for tickets and 10 bucks for a beer after a cancelled season and a diminished payroll? He's laughing on his way to the bank.
No, but I bet the sting of looking over an empty stadium that is usually filled when there`s a game stings a heck of alot more than say the owners of the Panthers/Devils/Islanders and about 10 others feel

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12-07-2012, 07:15 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Gee Wally View Post
They drank Fehr Kool Aid.

Fehr failed at the one absolute tenet of Collective Bargaining. He misjudged where the tipping point was.

All negotiations have one. Be it labor, buying a house, anything...

You have to read your opposition and know where it is.
This is the absolute fairest and most point-on criticism of Fehr yet.

The question we can't answer is where the players' tipping point was either, and if the two don't meet then this was unavoidable. It makes both sides stupid in my opinion, but it was going to happen.

This was my worry about Fehr anyway. But his actions, while awful for MLB and fans and everything in 94, did produce the most powerful union in the world, and MLB is doing just fine for every party - fans, players, owners.

So I guess that is me trying to find the silver lining in this bowl full of ****? I don't know....I just don't know.

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12-07-2012, 07:18 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Gee Wally View Post
They drank Fehr Kool Aid.

Fehr failed at the one absolute tenet of Collective Bargaining. He misjudged where the tipping point was.

All negotiations have one. Be it labor, buying a house, anything...

You have to read your opposition and know where it is.
You would think that, but he most likely hasn't. A good bargainer knows how to create very real looking false tipping points. A good opposition does not cave under that pressure.

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12-07-2012, 07:20 AM
  #130
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Ron Burkle, Co-Owner, Pittsburgh Penguins

"The idea to put players and owners together in the same room was a refreshing idea. Commissioner Bettman should be thanked for proposing it and the Fehrs should be thanked for agreeing to it.

The players came with a strong desire to get back to playing hockey. They were professional and did a good job of expressing their concerns and listening to ours. We wanted to move quickly and decisively. We have all spent too much time without any real progress at the expense of our fans, our sponsors and the communities we serve. It was time to make bold moves and get a deal. Many people think we got over our skis and they are probably right, but we wanted to do everything we could to get back to hockey now. We didn't hold back.

We made substantial movement on our end quickly, but unfortunately that was not met with the same level of movement from the other side. The players asked us to be patient and keep working with them. |t's not what they do and they wanted us to know they were committed.

We understood and appreciate their situation. We came back with an aggressive commitment to pensions which we felt was well received. We needed a response on key items that were important to us, but we were optimistic that we were down to very few issues. I believe a deal was within reach.

We were therefore surprised when the Fehrs made a unilateral and "non-negotiable" decision - which is their right, to end the player/owner process that has moved us farther in two days than we have moved at any time in the past months.

I want to thank the players involved for their hard work as we tried to reach a deal.

I hope that going backwards does not prevent a deal."

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12-07-2012, 07:22 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Ron Burkle, Co-Owner, Pittsburgh Penguins

"The idea to put players and owners together in the same room was a refreshing idea. Commissioner Bettman should be thanked for proposing it and the Fehrs should be thanked for agreeing to it.

The players came with a strong desire to get back to playing hockey. They were professional and did a good job of expressing their concerns and listening to ours. We wanted to move quickly and decisively. We have all spent too much time without any real progress at the expense of our fans, our sponsors and the communities we serve. It was time to make bold moves and get a deal. Many people think we got over our skis and they are probably right, but we wanted to do everything we could to get back to hockey now. We didn't hold back.

We made substantial movement on our end quickly, but unfortunately that was not met with the same level of movement from the other side. The players asked us to be patient and keep working with them. |t's not what they do and they wanted us to know they were committed.

We understood and appreciate their situation. We came back with an aggressive commitment to pensions which we felt was well received. We needed a response on key items that were important to us, but we were optimistic that we were down to very few issues. I believe a deal was within reach.

We were therefore surprised when the Fehrs made a unilateral and "non-negotiable" decision - which is their right, to end the player/owner process that has moved us farther in two days than we have moved at any time in the past months.

I want to thank the players involved for their hard work as we tried to reach a deal.

I hope that going backwards does not prevent a deal."
good find Lou. That says a lot right there.

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Old
12-07-2012, 07:22 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Bizarre because Hainsey prolly left out the "The owners said it was a dealbreaker if Fehr came into the room and tried to change everything we just agreed to."

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12-07-2012, 07:22 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
This is the absolute fairest and most point-on criticism of Fehr yet.

The question we can't answer is where the players' tipping point was either, and if the two don't meet then this was unavoidable. It makes both sides stupid in my opinion, but it was going to happen.

This was my worry about Fehr anyway. But his actions, while awful for MLB and fans and everything in 94, did produce the most powerful union in the world, and MLB is doing just fine for every party - fans, players, owners.

So I guess that is me trying to find the silver lining in this bowl full of ****? I don't know....I just don't know.
I don't know that the NHLPA ever had enough power to have a tipping point in the first place. The NHL pretty much knew that they had the players over a barrel, and that they could strong arm them into a deal that worked for the owners...or not. Looks like right now we're at the "or not" stage.

I agree that Fehr took a step back with the MLB, thus allowing them to make huge gains almost immediately. I just don't see it as a good comparison for the NHL unfortunately. The last time the NHL had a labor dispute it was 10 steps back and a very slow crawl forward for several years, and I don't expect all the casual fans to have the same type of patience that you and I, and the rest of this forum have.

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12-07-2012, 07:23 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
This is the absolute fairest and most point-on criticism of Fehr yet.

The question we can't answer is where the players' tipping point was either, and if the two don't meet then this was unavoidable. It makes both sides stupid in my opinion, but it was going to happen.

This was my worry about Fehr anyway. But his actions, while awful for MLB and fans and everything in 94, did produce the most powerful union in the world, and MLB is doing just fine for every party - fans, players, owners.

So I guess that is me trying to find the silver lining in this bowl full of ****? I don't know....I just don't know.
Your assuming that the players have any idea what a "tipping point" is correct??

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12-07-2012, 07:23 AM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Ron Burkle, Co-Owner, Pittsburgh Penguins

"The idea to put players and owners together in the same room was a refreshing idea. Commissioner Bettman should be thanked for proposing it and the Fehrs should be thanked for agreeing to it.

The players came with a strong desire to get back to playing hockey. They were professional and did a good job of expressing their concerns and listening to ours. We wanted to move quickly and decisively. We have all spent too much time without any real progress at the expense of our fans, our sponsors and the communities we serve. It was time to make bold moves and get a deal. Many people think we got over our skis and they are probably right, but we wanted to do everything we could to get back to hockey now. We didn't hold back.

We made substantial movement on our end quickly, but unfortunately that was not met with the same level of movement from the other side. The players asked us to be patient and keep working with them. |t's not what they do and they wanted us to know they were committed.

We understood and appreciate their situation. We came back with an aggressive commitment to pensions which we felt was well received. We needed a response on key items that were important to us, but we were optimistic that we were down to very few issues. I believe a deal was within reach.

We were therefore surprised when the Fehrs made a unilateral and "non-negotiable" decision - which is their right, to end the player/owner process that has moved us farther in two days than we have moved at any time in the past months.

I want to thank the players involved for their hard work as we tried to reach a deal.

I hope that going backwards does not prevent a deal."
And this is a guy who won union awards and raised millions of dollars for Hillary Clinton.

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12-07-2012, 07:23 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Scotto74 View Post
good find Lou. That says a lot right there.
Larry Tanenbaum, Chairman of the Board, Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment

"I was pleased to be asked to join the Player/Owner negotiation sessions. I had hoped that my perspective both as a businessman and as one of the owners of the Toronto Maple Leafs would be helpful to the process. Like all other teams, this work stoppage has hurt our fans, our employees and our business. Neither the owners nor the players will ever recover the losses incurred with this work stoppage.

I understand how important it is to have a strong league and 30 healthy teams. I must admit that I was shocked at how things have played out over the last 48 hours. The sessions on Tuesday felt cooperative with an air of goodwill. I was optimistic and conveyed my optimism to the Board of Governors at our Wednesday meeting. However, when we reconvened with the players on Wednesday afternoon, it was like someone had thrown a switch. The atmosphere had completely changed. Nevertheless, the owners tried to push forward and made a number of concessions and proposals, which were not well-received. I question whether the union is interested in making an agreement.

I am very disappointed and disillusioned. Had I not experienced this process myself, I might not have believed it. Like all hockey fans, I am hopeful this situation can be resolved as soon as possible. I miss our game."

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12-07-2012, 07:26 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
And this is a guy who won union awards and raised millions of dollars for Hillary Clinton.
Yep..and this is coming from a moderate... Can't even imagine where the hardline owners are right now..

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12-07-2012, 07:30 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Larry Tanenbaum, Chairman of the Board, Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment

"I was pleased to be asked to join the Player/Owner negotiation sessions. I had hoped that my perspective both as a businessman and as one of the owners of the Toronto Maple Leafs would be helpful to the process. Like all other teams, this work stoppage has hurt our fans, our employees and our business. Neither the owners nor the players will ever recover the losses incurred with this work stoppage.

I understand how important it is to have a strong league and 30 healthy teams. I must admit that I was shocked at how things have played out over the last 48 hours. The sessions on Tuesday felt cooperative with an air of goodwill. I was optimistic and conveyed my optimism to the Board of Governors at our Wednesday meeting. However, when we reconvened with the players on Wednesday afternoon, it was like someone had thrown a switch. The atmosphere had completely changed. Nevertheless, the owners tried to push forward and made a number of concessions and proposals, which were not well-received. I question whether the union is interested in making an agreement.

I am very disappointed and disillusioned. Had I not experienced this process myself, I might not have believed it. Like all hockey fans, I am hopeful this situation can be resolved as soon as possible. I miss our game."
wow the players are digging a hole they will never get out of. At the end of the day the Owners well Own the NHL. The players are employees. If it came down to it the owners could start drafting next year and not use the NHLPA at all. I am sure there are some players that would play. The union will break in the long run. Players careers are short term. Owners interest are long term. The waiting game would go to the owners.

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12-07-2012, 07:32 AM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
This is the absolute fairest and most point-on criticism of Fehr yet.

The question we can't answer is where the players' tipping point was either, and if the two don't meet then this was unavoidable. It makes both sides stupid in my opinion, but it was going to happen.

This was my worry about Fehr anyway. But his actions, while awful for MLB and fans and everything in 94, did produce the most powerful union in the world, and MLB is doing just fine for every party - fans, players, owners.

So I guess that is me trying to find the silver lining in this bowl full of ****? I don't know....I just don't know.
However, with the MLB Fehr had leverage like no other pro sports union boss.

He was able to strike during a season. Just take a step back and think about that.

On the players side, the majority of his membership had been paid already and did not lose much by not playing the post season.

The fans lost a friggin world series AFTER having paid their money and spent their time watching what turned out to be a meaningless season. The owners paid out all these contracts and got no post season revenue in return.


If the NHL loses a season, overall its mainly the players who lose. The owners while not making money are not spending. The fans will come back as they did last time. Its his membership who will lose a year of salary to "fight the good fight" aka to make sure Crosby and Brad Richards contracts are made whole 100%. I ran the numbers, 75% of the NHLPA (who are signed) are on a 1-3 year deal. I don't see how losing a season helps them one bit.

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12-07-2012, 07:33 AM
  #140
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The NHLPA and Fehr have pretty much stabbed the moderate owners in the back this week. I hope the NHLPA burns to the ground @ this point.

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12-07-2012, 07:33 AM
  #141
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How do you justify the players having the best CBA of the big 4 when the NHL produces less revenue and far less profit than the other 3?
I'm sorry. They don't have a CBA.

Unless you mean their last one. Which by no means is the most union-friendly agreement of the "big 4".

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12-07-2012, 07:40 AM
  #142
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http://www.tsn.ca/winnipeg/story/?id=411086


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Bill Daly also addressed the media following Bettman and said five-year player contract limits were hugely important to NHL, as is a 10-year CBA term.

He also said term limit on player contracts is so important to league it's "the hill we'll die on."

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12-07-2012, 07:46 AM
  #143
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Kaoz, I love ya man. But you are INSANE.

Make whole is a concession, but 50/50 is a reality?

No wonder the lockout is going the way it is. THAT type of attitude.
That hasn't been proven conclusively.

That's just my take, doesn't make it right, but I never saw the starting point as a 57/43 split in the players favor. That number is dictated by the demands of the business, there is no entitlement to it on the players part. Say the last CBA was a 10 year agreement, would you want to use the fiscal landscape from a decade ago as a place to begin bargaining? I can't think of many companies that would.

I was a little more angry at the whole situation last night after watching Fehr spout an endless stream of ridiculousness honestly. Now I guess I'm just more resigned then anything. At this point, I wouldn't blame the owners one bit for saying "Make Whole is off the table, there won't be hockey until there is a true 50/50 split, contract limits will be 5 years, and the CBA will extend out for 10 years. Feel free to negotiate amongst yourselves but until you come back to the table understanding those 4 very basic premises as fact you won't be playing hockey. Have fun in Russia." The very real situation for the players here is that the owners don't have to give them anything, they can try their hand in the courtroom but chances aren't very likely any of them would want to live like the rest of us for the 2 or so years it would take to get anti trust lawsuits through the system. Without the NHL owners are still filthy rich. Without the NHL the players are packing up and selling their wares over seas to leagues with far far far more realistic salaries and owners who will make NHL owners look like Mary Poppins. The owners have just as much right to make money at the NHL as the players do, you take that right away from the owners and you don't have an NHL. It would be different if the owners were being unreasonable imo, if two other leagues just hadn't settled for a 50/50 revenue split themselves, two leagues that bring in far more revenue then the NHL.

Regardless, the players already offered the same 50/50 split if they got 393 million when the owners were offering just 200 million. The owners split the difference and conceded to 300 million so long as they got the 10 year CBA length and 5 year contract limit. That should have been the end of it right there. Give a little, take a little. But Fehr and Co. now won't agree to CBA length because they don't want players of the future to miss out on their chance to go through one of these "bargaining sessions"? That one statement made by Fehr during his presser pretty much sums it all up for me. Fehr doesn't care that 10 years would be a plus for everyone, that the stability would likely generate more revenue for the NHL in terms of fan and sponsor support and actually mean more money for the players he represents. It's about winning all the little battles so they can eventually say they managed to win the war.

We are now at the point where the players and Fehr have managed to turn even the moderate owners off.

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12-07-2012, 07:47 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
However, with the MLB Fehr had leverage like no other pro sports union boss.

He was able to strike during a season. Just take a step back and think about that.

On the players side, the majority of his membership had been paid already and did not lose much by not playing the post season.

The fans lost a friggin world series AFTER having paid their money and spent their time watching what turned out to be a meaningless season. The owners paid out all these contracts and got no post season revenue in return.


If the NHL loses a season, overall its mainly the players who lose. The owners while not making money are not spending. The fans will come back as they did last time. Its his membership who will lose a year of salary to "fight the good fight" aka to make sure Crosby and Brad Richards contracts are made whole 100%. I ran the numbers, 75% of the NHLPA (who are signed) are on a 1-3 year deal. I don't see how losing a season helps them one bit.
Yup.

But that is also why he was running a union that agreed to give back 7% of the total revenue.

He had the leverage that time, and this time he doesn't.

Last time he won, this time he was already the only side giving anything up.

As far as the "the good fight" I agree. This seems to be to the players more about what they think is right and wrong versus greed. Without rehashing Patty and I's conversation, it can't be both.

I know if I had some "****-you money" saved up and I believed my employer was taking advantage of me that I'd walk away too. I guess that makes me stupid, but I have a hyper-sense of right and wrong anyway.

(Calling me stupid is not a matter of right and wrong, just opinion, so feel free to do so.)

Also, Morris, I don't know if I disagree with anyone in terms of this stuff more than you, but you are fair, reasonable, and acknowledge both sides of the argument. I have enjoyed discussing this lockout with you, just wish we didn't have to.

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12-07-2012, 07:54 AM
  #145
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Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
Yup.

But that is also why he was running a union that agreed to give back 7% of the total revenue.

He had the leverage that time, and this time he doesn't.

Last time he won, this time he was already the only side giving anything up.

As far as the "the good fight" I agree. This seems to be to the players more about what they think is right and wrong versus greed. Without rehashing Patty and I's conversation, it can't be both.

I know if I had some "****-you money" saved up and I believed my employer was taking advantage of me that I'd walk away too. I guess that makes me stupid, but I have a hyper-sense of right and wrong anyway.

(Calling me stupid is not a matter of right and wrong, just opinion, so feel free to do so.)

Also, Morris, I don't know if I disagree with anyone in terms of this stuff more than you, but you are fair, reasonable, and acknowledge both sides of the argument. I have enjoyed discussing this lockout with you, just wish we didn't have to.
As for the issues, I know were on opposite sides of it. You a teacher (presumably represented by a union) and I employed by a merit-shop (non-union) contractor.

Maybe if they do play again, and EM does make it back into the building, we can get a beer or 2. Maybe with DKH as well.. I have not seen him in a while either.

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12-07-2012, 08:08 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
I'm sorry. They don't have a CBA.

Unless you mean their last one. Which by no means is the most union-friendly agreement of the "big 4".
Hockey is also the only major sport where players have to share rooms with teammates on the road.

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12-07-2012, 08:16 AM
  #147
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Gut feeling says a CBA deal is very close. This mess yesterday was a public show and the last step before apologies, smiles and makeup-sex.

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12-07-2012, 08:16 AM
  #148
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Hockey is also the only major sport where players have to share rooms with teammates on the road.
really I didn't know that. I don't think they have to share really. I remember hearing Lucic has his own room because he snores to loud and none of the others want to room with him.

Is Football the only major sport without guaranteed contracts?

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12-07-2012, 08:16 AM
  #149
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I thought from the beginning that Fehr was a bad choice. He is an ego driven negotiator who's priority is enhancing his reputation as a tough negotiator and not bringing an end to the lockout. The longer and more drawn out the better it looks for Fehr as it enhances his stubborn, no break reputation. For a group of supposedly intelligent and rich businessmen the NHL and NHLPA have pissed away billions of dollars and this one lockout will have lasting effects on the fans I guarantee you that. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

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12-07-2012, 08:21 AM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Gee Wally View Post
All we have to Fehr is Fehr itself.

That punk.
I'm not surprised. This guy is pure poison.

Time for another player revolt/coup against NHLPA leadership? Paging Andrew Ference....

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