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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

With Fehr end-around, owners hit new low—and waste lead

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Old
12-07-2012, 01:58 PM
  #276
ryno23
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
LOL... And you think there's
1) enough players who would prefer to play in Europe rather than in North AmericaNo but they would if they need to play hockey
2) that they could make the money there that they're making here, even with the new CBA that the owners wantfor some yes and still be making enough to keep this going until the owners cave
3) that there are enough jobs in Europe, paying those BIG $ to provide most of the NHL players with places to playjust like the NHL- Euro owners will spend on premier talent for their teams. Ovie in Russia will be paid huge as would Crosby
4) and that those current European players don't already have contracts that will prevent those teams from taking on great numbers of NHL players Just like the NHL owners who is to say they don't screw their players under contract over.
????
see above

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12-07-2012, 02:00 PM
  #277
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LOL, Fehr is not standing up to a bully.

Bettman is caving every time he comes back with an offer.

What's the "our deals will get worse as time goes on" threat that Gary made back in November ... well they haven't. The last deal the NHL put forth was the best one they've given yet.

They keep bending. Fehr knows exactly what he's doing.

He knew full well going into this that the PA would have to accept 50-50, because the NBA and NFL already did. But he's gotten a whopping $300 million extra for the players of a possible $390 million make whole.

That is freaking hilarious. Fehr's rep as being a good negotiator is going to come out of this well intact, he knows it now, he probably had a giant grin on his face eating breakfast this morning.

You want to see what an actual hard line commissioner looks like go look at Mr. Goddell in the NFL. THAT guy would make NHL players cry and say daddy in a labour dispute. Bettman is a plushy soft version of the NBA's David Stern.
I agree with you on Fehr he is good for the players and now Bettman is not sure what to do

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12-07-2012, 02:02 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
You need to check your facts again. I live in Europe and taxes here are a hell of a lot higher then North America.
I am just a fan who does not like to see owners treat players like cattle whether it be in the NHL or any other business place.

Taxes are high in Europe but players have tax shelters they can put their money to avoid paying high taxes.


Last edited by Fugu: 12-07-2012 at 02:08 PM. Reason: name stuff
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12-07-2012, 02:07 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by ryno23 View Post
see above
Still have to LOL... And your sure enough of that would happen so as not to break the union?

If the Lockout would go into November next year, the union will disintegrate.

Of course though, the NHL will certainly be damaged by that, but the bigger damage will have already been done by the complete loss of this Season. The loss of another month in next Season would be minimal damage on top of that.

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12-07-2012, 02:11 PM
  #280
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Change the cap floor so it's 200% of the revenue sharing dispersal amount. Change the rule on who can collect from revenue sharing, if you're poor you're poor no more of that "You're in a big market so suck it up" crap.

Adjust the ceiling so it reflects what the current one would be at a 50-50 split.

Keep the term limits, drop the variance, institute a "Home-grown" rule where a player who was drafted by a team and signed by said team only has ~80% of his contract count against the cap, if they're traded then 100% of the contract will count against the cap.

Bonuses no longer count against the cap and are not calculated into the player's share. NTC/NMC can be signed onto any contract after the player's ELC.

Extend the draft to 9 rounds. Any players drafted that elect to go to college have their right's held for the duration they're in school plus an additional year after they leave school regardless if the reason for them leaving is graduation, expulsion, or they leave under their own will/join a major-junior team. All other drafted player's rights are held for three years before they expire.

Make the deal 10 years long with a PA option of early termination after 8 years have been played.

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12-07-2012, 02:13 PM
  #281
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The players are to blame right now. I used to blame the owners as well but the last owners proposal is great for the players. 50 percent plus 250 million in make whole money? What is not to like about that.

the whole 5 year contract limitation shouldn't even be a concern. There is a salary cap and if one player isn't getting the money another one will. Why have 7 year contracts for free agents that benefit maybe 20 players in the league tops?

The teams aren't doing well the players are making a fortune. The players will do worse if teams fold. They should work together to make the league stronger.

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12-07-2012, 02:13 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by ryno23 View Post
I am just a fan who does not like to see owners treat players like cattle whether it be in the NHL or any other business place.

Taxes are high in Europe but players have tax shelters they can put their money to avoid paying high taxes.

Buttman is Betteman and he is the reason for the lockout. He promised the owners to crush the union again and guess what....it ain't happening this time.
You're really skewing the truth trying to prove your point .

The fact is outside of the KHL no other league pays close to what the players get in the NHL . The Euro owners could offer these huge deals you're talking about to any ufa regardless of whether there's a lockout but they don't because it isn't financially viable .

How is Bettman looking to crush the NHLPA ?

Outside of a 50/50 split the rest of his demands don't affect the players share of HRR . Length of contract doesn't nor does the length of the CBA . In fact contract length limits is a benefit to the players because it helps ensures the money goes to the players that deserve it .

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12-07-2012, 02:15 PM
  #283
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The NHL wants to eat their cake and have it too.

They want to pull franchises out of the red without reducing parity or significantly increasing revenue sharing. The cherry on top is they're all-in on contract term now. The players understandbly feel backed into a corner. There have been many creative and intelligent suggestions posted on these boards. Some of these things aren't even difficult concepts (e.g. actual dollar amount, instead of average, is cap hit). But alas, the NHL is still clawing at certain things they don't absolutely need. Makes me think we're still not at the 11th hour yet.

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12-07-2012, 02:17 PM
  #284
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The NHL wants to eat their cake and have it too.

They want to pull franchises out of the red without reducing parity or significantly increasing revenue sharing. The cherry on top is they're all-in on contract term now. The players understandbly feel backed into a corner.
Frankly, the league is lucky the players are willing to tie their take to league revenues when they have no say in where the teams play. Keeping a team in a joke market like Phoenix has taken money out of the players' pockets.

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12-07-2012, 02:23 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
I think in actuality, there simply aren't 30 hockey friendly markets in North America. Supply/demand is the basic fundamental of any economic system ... there just aren't enough people that give a crap about ice hockey in North America.

Every market in the US is a football market, lol, high school football is more popular than NHL ice hockey in some American markets.

Yes they can relocate more teams to Canada, but how many more cities in Canada are there to put teams in? At what point are you try to shoe horn an NHL franchise in say ... Regina?

Also US networks don't want more Canadian teams, you think ESPN is going to come running to sign a TV deal where the playoff semis every other year might be stocked with Canadian clubs? There go what's left of your TV ratings.

I understand what Bettman is trying to do -- he knows ice hockey is a tough sell in the US, so he's trying to create parity, because then at least a lot of these US clubs have a fighting chance as the NHL is a gate driven league. The players are just looking at it from the POV of "what do I get paid"?
I am sick of all the Canadian people on here talking bad about american cities. The whole thing is ridiculous. You lost a bunch of teams because you couldn't support them. Now these Canadian fans think a bunch of the US Teams should move to Canada.

Ok here is some news: Canada has less people than California. There ability to support a ton of hockey teams is very limited. If you think Canada and Hockey do so well together, start a new league with only Canadian teams. See how that works out for you.

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12-07-2012, 02:24 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
Frankly, the league is lucky the players are willing to tie their take to league revenues when they have no say in where the teams play. Keeping a team in a joke market like Phoenix has taken money out of the players' pockets.
I'll give you part of that argument; it might seem fair that they should have some say in where franchises are located and also more say in how long they are obligated to stay with a franchise after being drafted by that franchise. However, the players can at least be thankful that the League increased in size to allow more player job opportunities. Hell, there is even talk occasionally about expansion as a possible bargining tool so that there will be more player jobs available. But the players don't seem to want to help keep current franchises afloat by not having their salaries soar out of reach.

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12-07-2012, 02:24 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
Frankly, the league is lucky the players are willing to tie their take to league revenues when they have no say in where the teams play. Keeping a team in a joke market like Phoenix has taken money out of the players' pockets.
What other options do you think they have ? People act like there's somewhere else or somthing else these players can do to earn these salaries when if fact the majority of the players would take a huge pay cut if there was no NHL .

They're in Phoenix because it's one of the biggest tv markets in the states and if they ever want to get a bigger U.S. tv deal they'll need to try to grow the game in places like Phoenix .

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12-07-2012, 02:25 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
Frankly, the league is lucky the players are willing to tie their take to league revenues when they have no say in where the teams play. Keeping a team in a joke market like Phoenix has taken money out of the players' pockets.
Well if the players want a say in where a team plays they can buy a team and move it wherever they want. What nonsense. I am sure their are plenty of phoenix fans who find you comments highly offensive.

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12-07-2012, 02:26 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by ryno23 View Post
I am just a fan who does not like to see owners treat players like cattle whether it be in the NHL or any other business place.

Taxes are high in Europe but players have tax shelters they can put their money to avoid paying high taxes.
MOD
Not trying to be an ass, but your understanding of the tax code both here and overseas is dramatically flawed.


Last edited by Fugu: 12-07-2012 at 02:28 PM. Reason: flaming
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12-07-2012, 02:29 PM
  #290
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I am sick of all the Canadian people on here talking bad about american cities. The whole thing is ridiculous. You lost a bunch of teams because you couldn't support them. Now these Canadian fans think a bunch of the US Teams should move to Canada.

Ok here is some news: Canada has less people than California. There ability to support a ton of hockey teams is very limited. If you think Canada and Hockey do so well together, start a new league with only Canadian teams. See how that works out for you.
No ones knocking the cities themselves but they are knocking the viability of some of the cities as hockey markets . I was in south beach on vacation last week and i didn't see anyone too concerned about the lockout .

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12-07-2012, 02:32 PM
  #291
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No ones knocking the cities themselves but they are knocking the viability of some of the cities as hockey markets . I was in south beach on vacation last week and i didn't see anyone too concerned about the lockout .
Well if the US government somehow gets their act together and the deficit goes down what do you think will happen to the value of the US dollar compared to the Canadian Dollar? Then when all the Canadian teams are trying to leave the country as quickly as they can I am sure you will have a differing opinion on the whole situation.

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12-07-2012, 02:38 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by ryno23 View Post
I am just a fan who does not like to see owners treat players like cattle whether it be in the NHL or any other business place.

Taxes are high in Europe but players have tax shelters they can put their money to avoid paying high taxes.
What is a tax shelter?

That is just not true at all....Especially in Sweden, Germany and Switzerland where laws are very strict. I think you watch too many James Bond movies.

NHL players actually could end up paying taxes in two countries if they are not careful.

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12-07-2012, 02:42 PM
  #293
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Well if the US government somehow gets their act together and the deficit goes down what do you think will happen to the value of the US dollar compared to the Canadian Dollar? Then when all the Canadian teams are trying to leave the country as quickly as they can I am sure you will have a differing opinion on the whole situation.
I never said the solution was to increase the number of teams in Can . In fact outside of another team in the greater Toronto area i don't see any other market you could say would be a long term succes in Can .

The difference is in even in a weaker market in Can you'd still have the fans support even if they had a hard time financially supporting the team . How many US cities really give a damn about hockey , i'm not saying there isn't die hard fans in every city but as a whole there's a number of cities where hockey is just an afterthought .

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12-07-2012, 02:48 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
I'll give you part of that argument; it might seem fair that they should have some say in where franchises are located and also more say in how long they are obligated to stay with a franchise after being drafted by that franchise. However, the players can at least be thankful that the League increased in size to allow more player job opportunities. Hell, there is even talk occasionally about expansion as a possible bargining tool so that there will be more player jobs available. But the players don't seem to want to help keep current franchises afloat by not having their salaries soar out of reach.
Expansion almost killed the sport.

The dead-puck era reduced interest in the sport to the point where ESPN choose to air frickin Texas Hold'em Tournaments than show Hockey.

The talent pool is JUST now starting to get to a point where teams actually capable of sending out 3 semi-scoring lines with a 4th line for breather purposes.

If anything the NHL would be healthier and benefit with less teams.

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12-07-2012, 02:50 PM
  #295
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I never said the solution was to increase the number of teams in Can . In fact outside of another team in the greater Toronto area i don't see any other market you could say would be a long term succes in Can .

The difference is in even in a weaker market in Can you'd still have the fans support even if they had a hard time financially supporting the team . How many US cities really give a damn about hockey , i'm not saying there isn't die hard fans in every city but as a whole there's a number of cities where hockey is just an afterthought .
Quebec City and might be GTA Mississauga, Hamilton and Scarborough(GTA) are all rumoured

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12-07-2012, 03:01 PM
  #296
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Expansion almost killed the sport.

The dead-puck era reduced interest in the sport to the point where ESPN choose to air frickin Texas Hold'em Tournaments than show Hockey.

The talent pool is JUST now starting to get to a point where teams actually capable of sending out 3 semi-scoring lines with a 4th line for breather purposes.

If anything the NHL would be healthier and benefit with less teams.
I don't necessarily think that reducing the teams will increase scoring. One could argue that the difference in talent level between first liners and fourth liners in the 80's was much greater than it is now.

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12-07-2012, 03:02 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
Bettman's a push over. Fehr knows it.

I follow the NBA and NFL too, so I know an actual hard line commissioner, Bettman, lol is a joke.

Too many people here have a hockey only perspective, they don't understand how things are in other sports (which just happen to have players that generate far more revenue/attendance/etc. than NHL players). NHL players have it freaking good given the relative niche appeal the NHL has.

Deep down I bet Fehr was having a nice laugh seeing Bettman up on that podium teary eyed and shaking. He looked like a kid that just had his ice cream stolen from him.
Yep, Bettman was crying like a little baby last night.

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12-07-2012, 03:06 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by ryno23 View Post
I am just a fan who does not like to see owners treat players like cattle whether it be in the NHL or any other business place.

Taxes are high in Europe but players have tax shelters they can put their money to avoid paying high taxes.
you pay me 2 million dollars to play a game meant for kids all the while flying charter, staying in 5-star hotels, never paying for equipment, sticks, skates...having the best massages, world class facilities and adored by millions...

brand my butt and I'll say 'moo'

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12-07-2012, 03:09 PM
  #299
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I am sick of all the Canadian people on here talking bad about american cities. The whole thing is ridiculous. You lost a bunch of teams because you couldn't support them. Now these Canadian fans think a bunch of the US Teams should move to Canada.

Ok here is some news: Canada has less people than California. There ability to support a ton of hockey teams is very limited. If you think Canada and Hockey do so well together, start a new league with only Canadian teams. See how that works out for you.
You need to relax buddy. That wasn't the point I was making. I was just speaking from a supply/demand POV.

It's more about the NHL and how popular watching a game that involves a bunch of men on ice skates gliding around on ice is in the modern North American market.

And I agree, there aren't many more viable Canadian markets either.

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12-07-2012, 03:11 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
Yep, Bettman was crying like a little baby last night.
This is how I'm beginning to see this playing out. If the League truly has pretty much reached its limit as to how much it believes it's able to concede, and if the players don't come around to save this Season... The owners are going to make the PA pay dearly next year, if the union doesn't desintegrate before then. The players are going to regret sticking by their guns and by this time next year will be wishing that they had accepted the owners offer in December 2012.


Let me footnote that...
It's also partly a hope, that the owners have the backbone to stick by what they believe is necessary for the health of the League. I absolutely don't want the League to throw itself under a bus and find itself splattered by economic chaos within the next 8 years.


Last edited by MoreOrr: 12-07-2012 at 03:18 PM.
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