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With Fehr end-around, owners hit new low—and waste lead

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Old
12-07-2012, 11:30 AM
  #151
Pepper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
The NHL's system has hurt the small market teams, inclusive of having let UFA age drop to 27 from 31. The NHL already signed that deal in 2005. Why are you so certain this fixes a systemic problem?
So you're blaming NHL for giving that concession to players in 2005? NHL should have continued to fight to keep the UFA age at 31?

Huh?

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12-07-2012, 11:30 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
The NHL claims they were ready to start talking as early as November last year but that the PA said no to talks during the season (and lo and behold, once the season ended they claimed they were ready to play and talk!); I don't see why they would lie about that.
And we've never heard the players saying that it's not true. Bettman stated that the offer to start negotiations had been made various times throughout the year and over the summer.

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12-07-2012, 11:30 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
A lot of stupid NHL billionaires around then. Because there are a lot of NHL markets where it wouldn't take any kind of brain to realize that they aren't money-making markets for the NHL (at least not at any time in the short-term, perhaps some day down the road in the long-term), but still the owners stepped up and got involved in the NHL to have franchises in those cities. Perhaps I, like many of those same owners, am a bit naive, but I do still think that there are major league sports franchises often simply for the reason that there is a passion for the sport. Now of course there is a serious economic element, and no owner can seriously take on a franchise and continually lose tons for money. But if a system can be put in place that keeps losses at a minimum, then the atmosphere of NHL hockey can be given a wider audience.
They do it so their cities can be relevant, not because their cities love the sport. No cap would allow more money in the pockets. The only people who lose are the fans.
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
I seriously believe that the only "mediocrity" your referring to is the one that relates to the degree of fan interest that exists and the amount of money that a particular franchise can afford to pay to the players as a result of that fan interest.

Forget the smaller markets, have teams only where there is a huge demand and where the franchises can afford to pay every player on the team millions.
It's working for the MLB. And the CFL.

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Old
12-07-2012, 11:33 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Model62 View Post
Feh. Record revenues, year after year. It's distribution of those revenues among the clubs that's wonky (more Rev. Sharing eases that, but can't solve it. Growth in American media is maybe the answer). But regardless -- the PA has agreed to the 50/50 split. They've agreed in principle to term lengths on contracts. They've agreed on percentage step-downs. They get the "raw economic reality". They have demonstrated it with all the giveaways.
Always the same refrain, "record revenues". Don't forget also that that have been, by far, 'record salary payouts'. Where do you think most of those revenues went?


Last edited by MoreOrr: 12-07-2012 at 11:39 AM.
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Old
12-07-2012, 11:33 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Eloquently said. And that goes for both sides, too.

For the NHL, reducing the Players' % of HRR was the end-goal. Until an agreement in principle on that was made. Now it's term limits, masqueraded around as this noble idea of preventing cap circumvention, even though variance limits and a cap reconciliation program take care of that issue just fine.

For the NHLPA, it was Make Whole. Once the NHL budged on Make Whole, it was "Actually, contract issues are the most important thing to us". Once the NHL walked away from certain contract demands, it was "Actually, the pension plan is the biggest thing."

It's all a game. Are we even at the 11th hour yet? The actions from both sides would suggest no.
The League came out with a suggested 5 year term limits on contracts in July, it's a bit ridiculous to claim that this came out of nowhere.

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12-07-2012, 11:34 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
The League came out with a suggested 5 year term limits on contracts in July, it's a bit ridiculous to claim that this came out of nowhere.
Yeah, that's not what he said.

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12-07-2012, 11:36 AM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
The NHL claims they were ready to start talking as early as November last year but that the PA said no to talks during the season (and lo and behold, once the season ended they claimed they were ready to play and talk!); I don't see why they would lie about that.
The NHL claims. And they've never fabricated or spun anything, have they? What was their initial proposal in November?

Just out of curiosity, if you were in the middle of playing top-level hockey (which, incidentally, is your only source of income) and giving your all for the team (which, incidentally, is what you're paid to do), what would YOUR mind be on?

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12-07-2012, 11:38 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
They do it so their cities can be relevant, not because their cities love the sport. No cap would allow more money in the pockets. The only people who lose are the fans.
Which fans? Losing why and how?

Fans don't have to pay a cent if they don't want to; or they can pay a bundle if they wish to. As "fans", and the significance of that word, the losses that there are are happening now, with there being no hockey!

Quote:
It's working for the MLB. And the CFL.
MLB, like the NFL, doesn't have a problem of needing some kind of competitive parity in order to keep fan interest.
And really!! You want to compare a 9-team CFL to the NHL?
Of course, if that's what you want or all you care about is a possible 9-team NHL, well then Ok, I get your point.

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12-07-2012, 11:39 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by CpatainCanuck View Post
How's this for an idea: all the Owners and Players take an IQ test. Which ever group has a higher average gets to write the CBA.
I think that is a great idea, combined with Fugu's Idea. If there is a tie they can settle it in a fight, off the ice to ensure fairness.


I can't help but feel that all this NHL owner talk yesterday, the letters, Bettman and Daly on the podium is all acting. They keep getting more and more out of the players. They had more on the table yesterday than they have all negotiation. They feel they still have a bit of time and think they can still get more.

I don't believe anything any of the parties say, all posturing, started as posturing, still is posturing. The NHL has a small man complex being the little guy in the sporting world and are more concerned with being able to show other leagues they can beat their PA into submission than they are about having a quality and meaningful season.

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12-07-2012, 11:41 AM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedMenace View Post
The NHL claims. And they've never fabricated or spun anything, have they? What was their initial proposal in November?

Just out of curiosity, if you were in the middle of playing top-level hockey (which, incidentally, is your only source of income) and giving your all for the team (which, incidentally, is what you're paid to do), what would YOUR mind be on?
Fehr and his legal team would have been capable of handling the negotiations until the season ended. He waited to gain leverage, its a ploy used by a lot of negotiators and this time it bit him...and badly.

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12-07-2012, 11:42 AM
  #161
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CrazyJ, I do believe escalation is part of the issue here. Bettman proved to the other leagues that you can get away with cancelling a season to get what you want, and it gave the other leagues leverage in their negotiations last year. Now both of those negotiations ended with drastically more favorable splits for the leagues, but in a gradual manner. So now Bettman needs to one-up them by further restricting player movement rights and getting them to the lower split immediately.

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12-07-2012, 11:42 AM
  #162
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Hard to know what to believe in this whole debacle anymore. Still I think Donald Fehr is being a hindrance to this thing getting settled.

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12-07-2012, 11:43 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by THW View Post
Fehr and his legal team would have been capable of handling the negotiations until the season ended. He waited to gain leverage, its a ploy used by a lot of negotiators and this time it bit him...and badly.
Speculation.

What's the point of having a "legal team" handling something when the people you represent aren't available to actually do anything?

He works for the players, and the players were playing. He could have done NOTHING without PA approval.

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12-07-2012, 11:43 AM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
The League came out with a suggested 5 year term limits on contracts in July, it's a bit ridiculous to claim that this came out of nowhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Yeah, that's not what he said.
Tawnos is correct. I'm saying that both sides repaint the goal line a little further back every time the other side makes a concession. No wonder everyone is frustrated.

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12-07-2012, 11:44 AM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Hard to know what to believe in this whole debacle anymore. Still I think Donald Fehr is being a hindrance to this thing getting settled.
Do you think it's Donald Fehr himself? Or is it the owners that don't want to negotiate with the guy the NHLPA hired?

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12-07-2012, 11:44 AM
  #166
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It's all a game. Are we even at the 11th hour yet? The actions from both sides would suggest no.
Ding, ding, ding, ding!!!

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12-07-2012, 11:47 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Which fans? Losing why and how?

Fans don't have to pay a cent if they don't want to; or they can pay a bundle if they wish to. As "fans", and the significance of that word, the losses that there are are happening now, with there being no hockey!
The fans lose without a cap floor because teams won't compete.


Quote:
MLB, like the NFL, doesn't have a problem of needing some kind of competitive parity in order to keep fan interest.
And really!! You want to compare a 9-team CFL to the NHL?
Of course, if that's what you want or all you care about is a possible 9-team NHL, well then Ok, I get your point.
All these excuses I ever hear. The NHL didn't need parity to keep interest until it over expanded. I want to you to remember one thing. Have a sports team is not a right. And when something fails. It's time to change. The NHL better dumps all these teams before it becomes not viable.

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12-07-2012, 11:48 AM
  #168
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Fehr knows he can hold out.

Every time the NHL has said "this is our best offer", they've come back to the table with an even better offer a week or two later, lol.

At this point he's probably going to ride this out another few days at least, maybe weeks if he feels the players are OK starting in January.

Sucks for us the fans though.

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12-07-2012, 11:52 AM
  #169
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Originally Posted by RedMenace View Post
Speculation.

What's the point of having a "legal team" handling something when the people you represent aren't available to actually do anything?

He works for the players, and the players were playing. He could have done NOTHING without PA approval.
Fehr could have negotiated in good faith with permission from the league, he could have met with the owners side, he could have met with players to inform them about offers. He could not ratify a contract nor could he agree to a proposal. Its the same from a janitors union to a union of billionaires negotiating with millionaires about sports. The excuse of players wanting to focus during the season is kind of childish, as most other unions work while negotiating, so thats a preference issue, and as long as the owners allowed that, then its a moot issue. I have negotiated 2 contracts with my union and the owners and the tactics being used are commonplace. From my UAW negotiations to Sports, the process is fundamentally the same.

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12-07-2012, 11:53 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
Fehr knows he can hold out.

Every time the NHL has said "this is our best offer", they've come back to the table with an even better offer a week or two later, lol.

At this point he's probably going to ride this out another few days at least, maybe weeks if he feels the players are OK starting in January.

Sucks for us the fans though.

Fehr is not a hockey fan and does not care about the NHL.....after this deal he will bolt with his millions. Next time NHLPA please please please get a hockey guy. Ken Dryden?

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12-07-2012, 11:54 AM
  #171
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Donald Fehr's penchant for striking before the PO's or the Boogeyman.

Which urban legend is scarier?

MOD



"Hurry up and lock them out before they can strike on us...you know, cause Fehr has done that each time there is a labour dispute."

The level of disdain that Fehr gets that Bettman doesn't get is absurd.

Here we have one guy that has caused more lost games of any sport. Lost a season, lost a playoffs, Lost a Stanley Cup finals. (all within the last 10 years)

Cost the NHL 1,020 regular season games back in 1994

Yet the ASSUMPTION that Fehr would get the players to strike before the PO's makes him a much WORSE villian in thse negotiations?

MOD


Last edited by Crease: 12-07-2012 at 11:56 AM. Reason: OT/Unnecessary
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12-07-2012, 11:56 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
The fans lose without a cap floor because teams won't compete.
Hey, just because the owners of certain teams don't make enough effort to have their teams be competitive, that's no reason to blame the "Cap Floor".

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All these excuses I ever hear. The NHL didn't need parity to keep interest until it over expanded. I want to you to remember one thing. Have a sports team is not a right. And when something fails. It's time to change. The NHL better dumps all these teams before it becomes not viable.
You know, I can understand fans with your perspective. Why should the League try to force economic mechanisms to help maintain teams in markets that aren't strong? Especially if you're a fan from a strong market. But I really don't understand the players in this. A lot of players play in those not-so-strong markets, and they depend on 30 teams existing in order to have NHL jobs. I don't understand why the players aren't divided over this issue; because if they had your attitude then they should know that if the League doesn't have strong economic mechanisms in place to help keep costs at a somewhat manageable level for the great majority of teams, then a lot of them as players will be out of work.

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12-07-2012, 11:56 AM
  #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
Fehr knows he can hold out.

Every time the NHL has said "this is our best offer", they've come back to the table with an even better offer a week or two later, lol.

At this point he's probably going to ride this out another few days at least, maybe weeks if he feels the players are OK starting in January.

Sucks for us the fans though.
I am afraid Donald has bigger plans, he has successfully fought replacement workers, and cullusion of owners at the Supreme Court level. Our sport may go the way of MLB if he does what he has in the past. The guy is on a big mission and he's gonna try to take the Players, Fans, and Owners with him.

He will try to blow up the system. Everybody is gonna suffer for a while. It's Too bad...

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12-07-2012, 11:58 AM
  #174
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Fehr is not a hockey fan and does not care about the NHL.....after this deal he will bolt with his millions. Next time NHLPA please please please get a hockey guy. Ken Dryden?
Was going to respond something similar. Yes, Fehr knows "he" can hold out, but unfortunately for hockey and its fans, Fehr's holding out hurts everyone (even eventually including the players, I suspect).

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12-07-2012, 11:58 AM
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Jesse Spector of The Sporting News:


If they'd agreed to matters in principle, why would having Fehr involved (which any normal person would assume would be needed to close) matter to the owners?

This is entire thing is incredibly bizarre.

I think it is because they want to ruin Fehr and could not allow him to be seen to have played any role in the final agreement. Kyper said as much on Sportsnet last night and, if I remember correctly, Doug MacLean (who has been very pro owner during this lockout) basically agreed with him.

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