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With Fehr end-around, owners hit new low—and waste lead

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Old
12-07-2012, 12:59 PM
  #176
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MOD NOTE

Let's please stay on topic here, which is to discuss the business aspects of what occurred this week in New York. Broad generalizations about posters are violations and will be considered flaming. Also, needless to say (but I'll say it anyway) we don't 'LOL' here.

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12-07-2012, 01:00 PM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Fehr is not a hockey fan and does not care about the NHL.....after this deal he will bolt with his millions. Next time NHLPA please please please get a hockey guy. Ken Dryden?
And Bettman wasn't a Hockey guy and had no problem locking out the players upon the expiration of the CBA he was hired at the tail end of.

Here's something from wiki

On February 1, 1993, Bettman's tenure as the first commissioner of the National Hockey League began, replacing Gil Stein, who served as the NHL's final president.[13] The owners hired Bettman with the mandate of selling the game in the U.S. market, end labor unrest, complete expansion plans, and modernize the views of the "old-guard" within the ownership ranks.[14]

End labour un-rest? At the end of EACH CBA he's been a part of, there has been labour unrest.

The first thing he did less than 2 years after getting hired is lock the players out.

If there's a horse in this race with a penchant for pulling a particular stunt as it relates to a negotiation tactic, it is CLEARLY Bettman.

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12-07-2012, 01:00 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by oilexport View Post
It does seem like every proposal has died on Don Fehr's pen. The Fans, NHL, and Players will all suffer because this guy has to squeeze as much as he can from the NHL.


It is his job to squeeze everything he can from the league just as it is Gary's job to squeeze everything he can from the players.

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12-07-2012, 01:01 PM
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Donald Fehr's penchant for striking before the PO's or the Boogeyman.

Which urban legend is scarier?

MOD



"Hurry up and lock them out before they can strike on us...you know, cause Fehr has done that each time there is a labour dispute."

The level of disdain that Fehr gets that Bettman doesn't get is absurd.

Here we have one guy that has caused more lost games of any sport. Lost a season, lost a playoffs, Lost a Stanley Cup finals. (all within the last 10 years)

Cost the NHL 1,020 regular season games back in 1994

Yet the ASSUMPTION that Fehr would get the players to strike before the PO's makes him a much WORSE villian in thse negotiations?

MOD
Bettman is as much to blame as Fehr, its just that now Fehr is the bully who wont take these offers to the union to vote on. I believe if the offers had been taken to a vote we would have had hockey in November. Its Fehr and the top tier of players in the negotiations that are holding this up by negotiating for the biggest fish instead of the whole pond.

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12-07-2012, 01:02 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
The NHL didn't need parity to keep interest until it over expanded.
The NHL had a lot of things back in the day. No like free agency for players for one. That helped to keep a lot of those dynasty teams together for enough years to become dynasty teams.

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12-07-2012, 01:02 PM
  #181
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From what Fehr says....hold out and the players can get more....

If that is true, how is that for the good of the game?
How is that looking out for the fans?
How is that helping the franchises losing money?

The only answers I have is the players don´t care about the NHL, they care about being set for life, which is understandable but to what point is 5 million a year not enough when you were making 5.5 million a year?

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12-07-2012, 01:03 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
This is beyond absurd. They're willing to torpedo a possible deal because they don't like Donald Fehr? But they have no problem with Steve Fehr.

We're somehow supposed to believe the players are wrong to vilify Bettman, but the owners, who are supposed to be level headed businessmen, behave this way?

This smells much more like Bettman and Jacobs trying to kill a deal they don't like and pinning the blame it on Fehr. Again. Isn't this playbook getting somewhat predictable at this point?

There were comments on Hockey Central last night that this is following the exact same script as in the last lockout.

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12-07-2012, 01:04 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
And Bettman wasn't a Hockey guy and had no problem locking out the players upon the expiration of the CBA he was hired at the tail end of.

Here's something from wiki

On February 1, 1993, Bettman's tenure as the first commissioner of the National Hockey League began, replacing Gil Stein, who served as the NHL's final president.[13] The owners hired Bettman with the mandate of selling the game in the U.S. market, end labor unrest, complete expansion plans, and modernize the views of the "old-guard" within the ownership ranks.[14]

End labour un-rest? At the end of EACH CBA he's been a part of, there has been labour unrest.

The first thing he did less than 2 years after getting hired is lock the players out.

If there's a horse in this race with a penchant for pulling a particular stunt as it relates to a negotiation tactic, it is CLEARLY Bettman.
You had me until the end....The problem with you blaming Bettman is the Owners decide if there will be a lockout...NOT BETTMAN

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12-07-2012, 01:06 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
And Bettman wasn't a Hockey guy and had no problem locking out the players upon the expiration of the CBA he was hired at the tail end of.

Here's something from wiki

On February 1, 1993, Bettman's tenure as the first commissioner of the National Hockey League began, replacing Gil Stein, who served as the NHL's final president.[13] The owners hired Bettman with the mandate of selling the game in the U.S. market, end labor unrest, complete expansion plans, and modernize the views of the "old-guard" within the ownership ranks.[14]

End labour un-rest? At the end of EACH CBA he's been a part of, there has been labour unrest.

The first thing he did less than 2 years after getting hired is lock the players out.

If there's a horse in this race with a penchant for pulling a particular stunt as it relates to a negotiation tactic, it is CLEARLY Bettman.
There are two huge differences between Bettman's role and Fehr's role. Bettman works for the NHL, now as a 19-year hockey man, and Fehr fights for union rights in all sports; and two, Bettman works for a group of hard-nosed billionaire businessmen-owners who will quickly express their own minds, while Fehr works for mostly young men whose primary activity is being hockey players.


Last edited by MoreOrr: 12-07-2012 at 01:14 PM.
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12-07-2012, 01:07 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by THW View Post
Bettman is as much to blame as Fehr, its just that now Fehr is the bully who wont take these offers to the union to vote on. I believe if the offers had been taken to a vote we would have had hockey in November. Its Fehr and the top tier of players in the negotiations that are holding this up by negotiating for the biggest fish instead of the whole pond.
Please tell me why you feel that way.

Owners - tell Bettman what they want
Fehr tells players what they should do

Owners vs. Fehr while Bettman is the voice of the owners he does not decide the NHL.

I understand Bettman has some power but am I stupid or do I not understand the system? Why do people think Bettman pulls all the strings???

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12-07-2012, 01:07 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Nope
The floor is cause teams to lose money. It has to go. The point is for the owners to make money. End of.

But if they spend as little as possible how good could their on ice product possibly be? If that product stinks they will lose fan support and therefore ticket sales, advertising money, etc. so they will still fail to make money.

And having that product can negatively impact other teams as well because fans won't pay to go see their team play what is, essentially, a team that is only a step or two above a beer league team.

Having a cap might cost them money in salaries but it helps them to earn money in ticket sales, advertising, etc. and prevents those teams from costing other teams money.

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12-07-2012, 01:08 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
You had me until the end....The problem with you blaming Bettman is the Owners decide if there will be a lockout...NOT BETTMAN
Bettman is clearly the most influential voice in that room. You really can't say that just the owners decide this. Bettman's job is to come up with a course of action acceptable to the majority of the owners. Or maybe as some have speculated, to 8 of them.

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12-07-2012, 01:08 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
But I really don't understand the players in this. A lot of players play in those not-so-strong markets, and they depend on 30 teams existing in order to have NHL jobs. I don't understand why the players aren't divided over this issue; because if they had your attitude then they should know that if the League doesn't have strong economic mechanisms in place to help keep costs at a somewhat manageable level for the great majority of teams, then a lot of them as players will be out of work.
Yeah, some of the hardline players, I'm not sure where they're coming from. They're lucky the NHL has a few "Bettman teams" that were in existence to give them a lot of money.

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12-07-2012, 01:09 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Model62 View Post
Feh. Record revenues, year after year. It's distribution of those revenues among the clubs that's wonky (more Rev. Sharing eases that, but can't solve it. Growth in American media is maybe the answer). But regardless -- the PA has agreed to the 50/50 split. They've agreed in principle to term lengths on contracts. They've agreed on percentage step-downs. They get the "raw economic reality". They have demonstrated it with all the giveaways.

The League is after more and I think it's that bit I mention at the end of my previous comment; this CBA and the ones that follow are to be negotiated on ownership's terms, not the PA's.
What is going on here is Betteman is used to getting what he wants from the players and crushing the union leader like in 04-05 now the union hired a guy that Betteman cannot bully and its frustrating Buttman and it has made it personal to get Fehr fired and crush the players again.

Instead of looking at the best interest of the game and understanding the players are the product and without them there is no 3.3 billion revenue and these owners do not have spanking new arenas.

The big issue is Gary is trying to implement a fool proof system that is owners (who are all together one for all) cannot go and screw up when they go back to being rivals and going about trying to screw each other over in the name of winning a cup.

Players and fans are hostage to that battle between owners and Gary trying to find a way for each owner to play nice when the CBA is signed.

You don't think Ed Snider is not going to try and screw Nashville over again with a huge monster offer sheet knowing full well that will either handicap them in the future or force them to overpay for a player.

I would love to see the hill Craig Leiopold died on when he signed Suter and Parise to 12 year deals.......that is a way long from 5 years for UFA that the league has proposed.

Again this is the owners mess and Fehr is trying to mitigate the damage the players are getting after giving it all up in 2004-05

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12-07-2012, 01:11 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Bettman is clearly the most influential voice in that room. You really can't say that just the owners decide this. Bettman's job is to come up with a course of action acceptable to the majority of the owners. Or maybe as some have speculated, to 8 of them.
If Bettman is as powerful as you say he is what happens if.....

30 owners decide to make a deal and Bettman says no

What happens?

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12-07-2012, 01:12 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Seachd View Post
Even then some players will still say it's worth it, because this whole thing is about "the future", and as Chris Campoli says, they don't want future players to go without the benefits players now have.

Which we all know is a steaming pile of horse****. Sad if these guys actually believe this.
Why wouldn't they? I was involved in labour negotiations as a grad student (we were unionized and went on strike). We knew that us PhD candidates would only be affected for 4-5 years max. (for those who were in their first year in their program and even less time for those of us who were further along) and that the Master's students would only be affected for 1-2 years max. but the union still went out on strike knowing that what they fought for at that time would benefit incoming grad students who would be there beyond our tenure at the university.

This is fairly common in labour negotiations.

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12-07-2012, 01:13 PM
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Please tell me why you feel that way.

Owners - tell Bettman what they want
Fehr tells players what they should do

Owners vs. Fehr while Bettman is the voice of the owners he does not decide the NHL.

I understand Bettman has some power but am I stupid or do I not understand the system? Why do people think Bettman pulls all the strings???
How do you know that Bettman isn't telling the owners what they should do? From the Bettman presser you could tell that Fehr has definetly got Bettman rattled. He's a cocky SOB that thinks, because he has 20 years of NHL labor experience, Fehr should bow down to him. That tells me the players got the right guy.

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12-07-2012, 01:13 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
If Bettman is as powerful as you say he is what happens if.....

30 owners decide to make a deal and Bettman says no

What happens?
That's irrelevant. 30 owners would never be for what Bettman thinks is a bad deal. Bettman would be fired first and yes, the owners have the power to fire Bettman and do whatever they want. However, while he's employed, he's the most influential voice in the room.

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12-07-2012, 01:16 PM
  #194
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Always the same refrain, "record revenues". Don't forget also that that have been, by far, 'record salary payouts'. Where do you think most of those revenues went?
Now you're gettin' nasty.

The PA's willingness to get to 50/50 demonstrates the PA's understanding of the economics and a willingness to give for the benefit of the financial health of the league.

Record revenues, year after year. It's a distribution problem among the clubs first, and an HRR share problem second.

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12-07-2012, 01:16 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
You had me until the end....The problem with you blaming Bettman is the Owners decide if there will be a lockout...NOT BETTMAN
Just like it's NOT Fehr that would "strike before the Playoffs"

Both comments have truths and mis-truths about them.

Bettman counsels the Owners about the best course of action in navigating towards a new CBA.

Fehr counsels the Players about the best course of action in navigating towards a new CBA

Bettman without a shadow of a doubt recommended a lockout. He's made the owners alot of money, they trust him and went with his reccomendation.

The "threat" that Fehr would have reccommended a strike before the PO's is overstated. As is the thought that the Players would be so cavalier as to just strike without negotiating to this point first.

I can't say for certain that the Players wouldn't strike. It's quite possible that they would.

What I do know for a FACT is that this is the 3rd CBA expire under Bettman's watch and this is the third lockout under Bettman's watch.

I would think that any reasonable person can gather that he does alot more than what the Owners tell him to do.

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12-07-2012, 01:17 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
That's irrelevant. 30 owners would never be for what Bettman thinks is a bad deal. Bettman would be fired first and yes, the owners have the power to fire Bettman and do whatever they want. However, while he's employed, he's the most influential voice in the room.
That is a bit disingenuoes. I am pretty sure when the have a BOG meeting what is decided during that meeting is what Gary Bettman´s voice becomes.....He just doesn´t make up things as he goes along.

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12-07-2012, 01:19 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by ryno23 View Post
What is going on here is Betteman is used to getting what he wants from the players and crushing the union leader like in 04-05 now the union hired a guy that Betteman cannot bully and its frustrating Buttman and it has made it personal to get Fehr fired and crush the players again.

Instead of looking at the best interest of the game and understanding the players are the product and without them there is no 3.3 billion revenue and these owners do not have spanking new arenas.

The big issue is Gary is trying to implement a fool proof system that is owners (who are all together one for all) cannot go and screw up when they go back to being rivals and going about trying to screw each other over in the name of winning a cup.

Players and fans are hostage to that battle between owners and Gary trying to find a way for each owner to play nice when the CBA is signed.

You don't think Ed Snider is not going to try and screw Nashville over again with a huge monster offer sheet knowing full well that will either handicap them in the future or force them to overpay for a player.

I would love to see the hill Craig Leiopold died on when he signed Suter and Parise to 12 year deals.......that is a way long from 5 years for UFA that the league has proposed.

Again this is the owners mess and Fehr is trying to mitigate the damage the players are getting after giving it all up in 2004-05
Why shouldn't the owners try and negotiate the best "fool proof" deal now? This is the only time they get to do so, once the CBA is signed, they cannot collude together, as that's illegal. So they only have now to get this right for the next 7-10 years.


What "damage" are the players really taking on? LOL. They've gotten the NHL to bend on $300 million on make whole, what did the NBA players get? Or NFL? As far as I know they got nothing.

50-50 split is in line with every other pro sports league, poor NHL players can't make ends meet with the damage of going down to 50-50 ... c'mon.

The NHL has caved a lot already, Fehr already has enough on the table to spin this as a win for him by getting $300 million make-whole, which the NBA didn't even sniff. He's just holding out now for an even better deal, why sign this one when the NHL keeps bending and giving him an even better one. Every one of the 4 major offers the NHL has made to the PA is even better than the last one. No incentive to rush and sign anything from Fehr's POV.

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12-07-2012, 01:19 PM
  #198
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Now you're gettin' nasty.

The PA's willingness to get to 50/50 demonstrates the PA's understanding of the economics and a willingness to give for the benefit of the financial health of the league.

Record revenues, year after year. It's a distribution problem among the clubs first, and an HRR share problem second.
Bang on.

What also happens now is my Leafs will make an extra 7 million under Gary's deal since the cap will go down roughly 7 million. So CBJ may only lose 30 million instead of 37 million. How does $7 million help any failing markets?

How is taking money from the players going to solve the huge disparity in marketplaces?

I know how......revenue sharing meaningful revenue sharing just like all the other leagues do.

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12-07-2012, 01:19 PM
  #199
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That is a bit disingenuoes. I am pretty sure when the have a BOG meeting what is decided during that meeting is what Gary Bettman´s voice becomes.....He just doesn´t make up things as he goes along.
He's the most influential because he knows what the interests are of each of the individual owners. I never said he makes the decisions. I said he influences them.

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12-07-2012, 01:21 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Just like it's NOT Fehr that would "strike before the Playoffs"

Both comments have truths and mis-truths about them.

Bettman counsels the Owners about the best course of action in navigating towards a new CBA.

Fehr counsels the Players about the best course of action in navigating towards a new CBA

Bettman without a shadow of a doubt recommended a lockout. He's made the owners alot of money, they trust him and went with his reccomendation.

The "threat" that Fehr would have reccommended a strike before the PO's is overstated. As is the thought that the Players would be so cavalier as to just strike without negotiating to this point first.

I can't say for certain that the Players wouldn't strike. It's quite possible that they would.

What I do know for a FACT is that this is the 3rd CBA expire under Bettman's watch and this is the third lockout under Bettman's watch.

I would think that any reasonable person can gather that he does alot more than what the Owners tell him to do.
So all the Bad stuff goes with Bettman....

What about record revenue, salaries and teams in the league since Bettman has taken over????????

No credit for that, he is just an evil little man.

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