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With Fehr end-around, owners hit new low—and waste lead

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Old
12-07-2012, 12:21 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Please tell me why you feel that way.

Owners - tell Bettman what they want
Fehr tells players what they should do

Owners vs. Fehr while Bettman is the voice of the owners he does not decide the NHL.

I understand Bettman has some power but am I stupid or do I not understand the system? Why do people think Bettman pulls all the strings???
He does not pull all the strings, but he does advise the owners and I think he is doing the same as Fehr and catering to the top tier of owners, plus his contract stipulations as far as negotiating a CBA are odd and smell fishy to me...again, catering to the few with the biggest bank accounts.

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12-07-2012, 12:22 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by THW View Post
Fehr could have negotiated in good faith with permission from the league, he could have met with the owners side, he could have met with players to inform them about offers. He could not ratify a contract nor could he agree to a proposal. Its the same from a janitors union to a union of billionaires negotiating with millionaires about sports. The excuse of players wanting to focus during the season is kind of childish, as most other unions work while negotiating, so thats a preference issue, and as long as the owners allowed that, then its a moot issue. I have negotiated 2 contracts with my union and the owners and the tactics being used are commonplace. From my UAW negotiations to Sports, the process is fundamentally the same.
Well I concede those points to you because I don't have those particular bits of knowledge. However, I don't necessarily agree that traveling constantly and putting your body and mind through extremes is equatable to working in the auto industry... but whatever.

The bolded, however, is quite telling in my opinion; the ownership allowed it to happen and didn't really seem to push the issue, which indicates to me that their "We're ready to negotiate NOW!" stuff was just a facade, and they'd planned the lockout from the start.

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12-07-2012, 12:22 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by THW View Post
He does not pull all the strings, but he does advise the owners and I think he is doing the same as Fehr and catering to the top tier of owners, plus his contract stipulations as far as negotiating a CBA are odd and smell fishy to me...again, catering to the few with the biggest bank accounts.
Pretty sure he's catering to the few with the smallest bank accounts, but yes, otherwise agreed.

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12-07-2012, 12:23 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
The NHL had a lot of things back in the day. No like free agency for players for one. That helped to keep a lot of those dynasty teams together for enough years to become dynasty teams.
We agree once again. Truth is at this point the NHL is speaking out of both sides of its mouth
Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
From what Fehr says....hold out and the players can get more....

If that is true, how is that for the good of the game?
How is that looking out for the fans?
How is that helping the franchises losing money?

The only answers I have is the players don´t care about the NHL, they care about being set for life, which is understandable but to what point is 5 million a year not enough when you were making 5.5 million a year?
Where in the NHLPA's mandate does it say its supposed to care about those things?If you have a change to make more why not. I thought you were neutral.

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Originally Posted by colchar View Post
But if they spend as little as possible how good could their on ice product possibly be? If that product stinks they will lose fan support and therefore ticket sales, advertising money, etc. so they will still fail to make money.

And having that product can negatively impact other teams as well because fans won't pay to go see their team play what is, essentially, a team that is only a step or two above a beer league team.

Having a cap might cost them money in salaries but it helps them to earn money in ticket sales, advertising, etc. and prevents those teams from costing other teams money.
Fans will always show up, even if it is very little. Cutting cost plus no salary cap is fine. Sure you end up with the Marlins then, but the point is to make money.

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12-07-2012, 12:23 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by bigd View Post
How do you know that Bettman isn't telling the owners what they should do? From the Bettman presser you could tell that Fehr has definetly got Bettman rattled. He's a cocky SOB that thinks, because he has 20 years of NHL labor experience, Fehr should bow down to him. That tells me the players got the right guy.
Huh?

I am sure Bettman saw Fehr´s resume. Did you?

Bettman is not rattled because of Fehr he is pissed because it is damaging the NHL.

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12-07-2012, 12:24 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
Why shouldn't the owners try and negotiate the best "fool proof" deal now? This is the only time they get to do so, once the CBA is signed, they cannot collude together, as that's illegal. So they only have now to get this right for the next 7-10 years.

What "damage" are the players really taking on? LOL. They've gotten the NHL to bend on $300 million on make whole, what did the NBA players get? Or NFL? As far as I know they got nothing.

50-50 split is in line with every other pro sports league, poor NHL players can't make ends meet with the damage of going down to 50-50 ... c'mon.
bend on making hole? Its their money the owners signed these players in good faith.

I will put in simpler terms for you.

You get hired by a company they offer you 50k a year and you accept. You get your first cheque and see that your only getting the equivalent of 35k a year. You question the boss and say "well we agreed on 50k a year what happened" Well I didn't feel like paying you that and I had in mind way before I signed you I was going to low ball you after you signed by taking money back.

So you threaten lawsuits or grievance then the owner comes back and says ok here ya go I will give you 40k a year.......how is that making you whole? Your still down 10k on what you agreed on.

Better yet the same day you see your company recorded 300 % profit over the last 4 years. Hmmm what would you do?

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12-07-2012, 12:25 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Model62 View Post
Record revenues, year after year. It's a distribution problem among the clubs first, and an HRR share problem second.
Therein lies a differentiation of perspective that could soundly be at the heart of a lot of what's going on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
Revenue sharing is increased massively in the new CBA to the point where the PA isn't even arguing it.

The Maple Leafs aren't a freaking charity either, if the Leafs are being asked to pay in more to subsidize all these other franchises, then sure, why shouldn't they get some extra "profit" (how you want to define that is up to you since a lot of that money is likely to go straight into revenue sharing)?
Hey, can I borrow that?

There, Model62, is an argument presented by Soundwave to show you that Revenue Sharing isn't the problem. Player costs are the problem. Player salaries have skyrocketed out of the range of a great many teams in the League.


Last edited by MoreOrr: 12-07-2012 at 12:31 PM.
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12-07-2012, 12:26 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by ryno23 View Post
Bang on.

What also happens now is my Leafs will make an extra 7 million under Gary's deal since the cap will go down roughly 7 million. So CBJ may only lose 30 million instead of 37 million. How does $7 million help any failing markets?

How is taking money from the players going to solve the huge disparity in marketplaces?

I know how......revenue sharing meaningful revenue sharing just like all the other leagues do.
Revenue sharing is increased massively in the new CBA to the point where the PA isn't even arguing it.

The Maple Leafs aren't a freaking charity either, if the Leafs are being asked to pay in more to subsidize all these other franchises, then sure, why shouldn't they get some extra "profit" (how you want to define that is up to you since a lot of that money is likely to go straight into revenue sharing)?

If a player plays great, he's rewarded handsomely with pay raises up the wazoo, but the Leafs, being one of the handful of NHL teams that's actually very successful and they're rewarded as a business with what? Being asked to bail out other franchises?

Is Sidney Crosby asked to share his salary with poorer players? How well would that go over with the players, lol.

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12-07-2012, 12:26 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Huh?

I am sure Bettman saw Fehr´s resume. Did you?

Bettman is not rattled because of Fehr he is pissed because it is damaging the NHL.
Fehr is breaking Bettman, that's why he's rattled. He's trying to improve the NHL. Destroying the middle class of player by forcing only large and small contracts is bad for the game.

Fehr is cool, composed, analyzing proposals and talking hard numbers in their press conferences. I can understand Fehr's arguments because he explains it to me. I can take his numbers and do the calculation.

Bettman is emo, blaming the PA, rejecting proposals after 10 minutes four times, and beating around the bush in their press conferences. I can't understand Bettman's arguments because he doesn't explain anything to me. I can't take his numbers and do anything with them to say the PA is at fault.

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12-07-2012, 12:27 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
We agree once again. Truth is at this point the NHL is speaking out of both sides of its mouth
Where in the NHLPA's mandate does it say its supposed to care about those things?If you have a change to make more why not. I thought you were neutral.


Fans will always show up, even if it is very little. Cutting cost plus no salary cap is fine. Sure you end up with the Marlins then, but the point is to make money.
When they go on National TV and state it "for the love of the game" is that not what the players say?

I consider myself neutral because I also dont believe in contract limits the NHL is trying to impose.

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12-07-2012, 12:29 PM
  #211
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I hope they cancel more games today. They have to. Or the season for that matter. So sick of this idiocy.

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12-07-2012, 12:30 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
Fehr is breaking Bettman, that's why he's rattled. He's trying to improve the NHL. Destroying the middle class of player by forcing only large and small contracts is bad for the game.

Fehr is cool, composed, analyzing proposals and talking hard numbers in their press conferences. I can understand Fehr's arguments because he explains it to me. I can take his numbers and do the calculation.

Bettman is emo, blaming the PA, rejecting proposals after 10 minutes four times, and beating around the bush in their press conferences. I can't understand Bettman's arguments because he doesn't explain anything to me. I can't take his numbers and do anything with them to say the PA is at fault.
There's no rush for Fehr to do anything.

He keeps getting the NHL to bend every time. Each one of the NHL's big offers has been even better than the last one, to the point where the PA is now going to get $300 million in make whole.

Fehr can already spin this as a win for him already. But you might as well keep pushing now.

It's no different from a kid who has parents that think they're punishing their child, but they're actually always copping out at the last minute. The only message the kid really gets is "I get my way if I keep doing this behaviour".

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12-07-2012, 12:30 PM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
Fehr is breaking Bettman, that's why he's rattled. He's trying to improve the NHL. Destroying the middle class of player by forcing only large and small contracts is bad for the game.

Fehr is cool, composed, analyzing proposals and talking hard numbers in their press conferences. I can understand Fehr's arguments because he explains it to me. I can take his numbers and do the calculation.

Bettman is emo, blaming the PA, rejecting proposals after 10 minutes four times, and beating around the bush in their press conferences. I can't understand Bettman's arguments because he doesn't explain anything to me. I can't take his numbers and do anything with them to say the PA is at fault.
NHLPA affiliated personnel should not be allowed to post here.

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12-07-2012, 12:30 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
So you're blaming NHL for giving that concession to players in 2005? NHL should have continued to fight to keep the UFA age at 31? Huh?
Pepper, the trade was UFA age coming down to 27 for the linkage (ergo cap floor).

The cap floor is hurting the weak teams. The UFA age gave them better protection (3 contracts that Burke cries about).

If this were the Trade board, we'd all say that the PA won that trade.


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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
Revenue sharing is increased massively in the new CBA to the point where the PA isn't even arguing it.

Define massively.

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12-07-2012, 12:32 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Pretty sure he's catering to the few with the smallest bank accounts, but yes, otherwise agreed.
I believe that the biggest pockets dictate how things go. There are owners that would rather see the game on the ice, but since Bettman only needs 8 owners on his side(if I remember correctly) he will listen to the deepest pockets because the teams losing money are taking handouts to keep afloat. But that is just what I believe. I could be wrong.

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12-07-2012, 12:34 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by ryno23 View Post
Bang on.

What also happens now is my Leafs will make an extra 7 million under Gary's deal since the cap will go down roughly 7 million. So CBJ may only lose 30 million instead of 37 million. How does $7 million help any failing markets?

How is taking money from the players going to solve the huge disparity in marketplaces?

I know how......revenue sharing meaningful revenue sharing just like all the other leagues do.
It would be much easier to share revenue if there was a better TV contract. There would be a better TV contract if more people watched hockey on TV. There would be more people watching hockey on TV if more actual, hardcore hockey fans watched more then just their own team on TV. But they don't, which is why NBC only shows 5 teams all the time. Then if at least one of those teams aren't in the finals, nobody is going to watch.

Then you could say well the NHL should make a better product to attract the viewer, which is fair.

Or, of course, just contract and relocate the league to 12 northeastern corridor teams, and call it a day.

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12-07-2012, 12:34 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
Revenue sharing is increased massively in the new CBA to the point where the PA isn't even arguing it.

The Maple Leafs aren't a freaking charity either, if the Leafs are being asked to pay in more to subsidize all these other franchises, then sure, why shouldn't they get some extra "profit" (how you want to define that is up to you since a lot of that money is likely to go straight into revenue sharing)?

If a player plays great, he's rewarded handsomely with pay raises up the wazoo, but the Leafs, being one of the handful of NHL teams that's actually very successful and they're rewarded as a business with what? Being asked to bail out other franchises?

Is Sidney Crosby asked to share his salary with poorer players? How well would that go over with the players, lol.
They are such an anomoly that is hard to argue a point cause even when they suck they fill the building and I know cause I am a leafs fan.

What happens when all teams are quality teams is that when an opposition team comes into a building for some mid revenue team they will sell out.

Say Phoenix comes to play here in Ottawa. That place does not sell out not even close but when Vancouver, Detroit, Rangers among the better teams come it sells out.

So it behooves the NHL to fix their flailing franchises with meaningful revenue sharing and ensuring all teams are good teams.

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12-07-2012, 12:34 PM
  #218
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Is Sidney Crosby asked to share his salary with poorer players? How well would that go over with the players, lol.
Actually, yes, he is. Crosby would make much more under the old non-salary cap system.

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12-07-2012, 12:35 PM
  #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
So all the Bad stuff goes with Bettman....

What about record revenue, salaries and teams in the league since Bettman has taken over????????

No credit for that, he is just an evil little man.
While he IS an evil little man. I give him alot of credit. I give the GAME OF HOCKEY more credit.

However, I will blame him for the Coyotes situation. I will blame him for failing to realize that the state of Georgia is not a very good sports town and expanding into that market was a major blunder.

I will blame him for continuing to expand way to fast thus diluting the talent pool and by extension creating the dead puck era.

I blame him for forcing teams down the throats of the sunbelt states alot of which happen to be financially struggling franchises.

If you paid attention to the teams driving the 3.3 billion annually, a monkey could have come in and did his job in that regards.

Bettman has over-seen more negative than positive during his tenure as Commish.

And it's nice you you completely missed the part of my post where I credited him with making the owners alot of money therefore they trust him and his opinion.

And none of that is mentioning he is the voice behind the 3rd lickout in as mand expired CBA's under his belt.

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12-07-2012, 12:35 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by ryno23 View Post
How is taking money from the players going to solve the huge disparity in marketplaces?

I know how......revenue sharing meaningful revenue sharing just like all the other leagues do.
How much revenue sharing would be sufficient in order to resolve the league's issue? According to Forbes (I know...) 17 teams earned a collective profit of $380M and 13 teams operated at a collective loss of $130M. The league is already committed to contributing between $150 and $200M. The well may run dry at some point, unless the league finds a way to increase profits for all teams. I think reducing player costs and increasing revenue sharing is a viable long term plan. Certainly not one or the other by itself.

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12-07-2012, 12:36 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
There's no rush for Fehr to do anything.

He keeps getting the NHL to bend every time. Each one of the NHL's big offers has been even better than the last one, to the point where the PA is now going to get $300 million in make whole.

Fehr can already spin this as a win for him already. But you might as well keep pushing now.

It's no different from a kid who has parents that think they're punishing their child, but they're actually always copping out at the last minute. The only message the kid really gets is "I get my way if I keep doing this behaviour".
I agree but I disagree. The NHL hasn't really bent. They've conceded from their first proposal, but they haven't conceded from the last CBA. In summary, they've still requested the PA go from 57% to 50% without giving up something in the old CBA to compensate. So in a negotiation from an overall perspective, they've given up nothing.

With that said, those 3 critical items the NHL brought up, one is very bad for the game. The 5% variance, from what I now realize because of Fehr's explanation, will force contracts to be large and small. Getting rid of the middle class of player is very bad for the game. It leads to the Miami Heat model in the NBA which I don't want to see in the NHL. Rather than Bettman and the owners taking the approach of explaining why the NHLPA proposal is wrong, they just lay blame.

To use your analogy, it's like telling a kid he's wrong without telling him why. If I had to mediate that relationship, I wouldn't understand what the parents are mad at the kid for. The NHL isn't explaining anything to me as a fan. The NHLPA is. I know why the items the NHL wants are wrong.

Just saying we want a longer agreement for our sponsors and fans isn't enough.

For more details items, explain to me the dollars because I'm having a hard time understanding the owners' argument.

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12-07-2012, 12:36 PM
  #222
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I have no clue what is the truth or what has been exaggerated, but if I needed to negotiate a contract I would want Bettman doing it for me.

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12-07-2012, 12:36 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by THW View Post
I believe that the biggest pockets dictate how things go. There are owners that would rather see the game on the ice, but since Bettman only needs 8 owners on his side(if I remember correctly) he will listen to the deepest pockets because the teams losing money are taking handouts to keep afloat. But that is just what I believe. I could be wrong.
the deepest pockets were not in the room on tuesday....just saying

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12-07-2012, 12:37 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by THW View Post
I believe that the biggest pockets dictate how things go. There are owners that would rather see the game on the ice, but since Bettman only needs 8 owners on his side(if I remember correctly) he will listen to the deepest pockets because the teams losing money are taking handouts to keep afloat. But that is just what I believe. I could be wrong.
Well the Leafs owner walked out yesterday. So...

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12-07-2012, 12:39 PM
  #225
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Hey, just because the owners of certain teams don't make enough effort to have their teams be competitive, that's no reason to blame the "Cap Floor".



You know, I can understand fans with your perspective. Why should the League try to force economic mechanisms to help maintain teams in markets that aren't strong? Especially if you're a fan from a strong market. But I really don't understand the players in this. A lot of players play in those not-so-strong markets, and they depend on 30 teams existing in order to have NHL jobs. I don't understand why the players aren't divided over this issue; because if they had your attitude then they should know that if the League doesn't have strong economic mechanisms in place to help keep costs at a somewhat manageable level for the great majority of teams, then a lot of them as players will be out of work.
Of course they will. That's why you don't do rapid expansion

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