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The Luongo Thread - "Make it stop, make it stop!"

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01-03-2013, 12:35 AM
  #726
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
The difference here is when Kessel was acquired he was nearly 15 years younger than Roberto Luongo is right now.

I don't think refusing to move your top young assets for a 33 year old goaltender is tantamount to rebuilding. Staying the course would be a more apt description IMO.

Again, most people's argument is based on what is in Burke's best interests to keep his job. Not what is best for the longterm health of the Maple Leafs. I agree Burke would last longer in Toronto if he acquired Luongo, I'm just not convinced he will sell the farm to secure his future.

Burke won't admit it but he knows full well he misjudged how far his team was from competing when he pulled the trigger on the Kessel deal. Don't see him compounding that mistake by paying a King's ransom to try and sneak into the playoffs. The foundation just isn't there to compete for a cup - you would have to think Burke see's this.
IMO if they were interested in the "long term health" of the Leafs they should have rebuilt from the bottom up on day 1 of Burke's tenure.

Plus, I don't think anyone (in their right mind)is suggesting they "sell the farm" to get Lu, but in order to get they're going to have to give. I don't see them giving up Reilly or Gardiner, but I don't see why a 1st rounder would be out of the question.

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01-03-2013, 12:45 AM
  #727
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
"It's not their time" has got to be one of the funniest arguments I have heard for the Leafs. What building blocks are they waiting to put into place?
This doesn't make any sense. Timing is everything when it comes to assembling a roster. Top teams are buyers at the deadline and crap teams are sellers...

The Leafs have had a 2nd, 9th and 5th overall pick in the last 3 drafts. Not exactly a candidate to pillage youth for that final piece to put them over the top.

You want to talk about a team that absolutely has to pay whatever price necessary to acquire Luongo? The Chicago Blackhawks. Now that makes some sense.

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01-03-2013, 12:51 AM
  #728
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IMO if they were interested in the "long term health" of the Leafs they should have rebuilt from the bottom up on day 1 of Burke's tenure.
In hindsight, they would. But isn't moving another 1st rd pick before the season even starts just compounding 1 mistake with another? Aren't we supposed to learn from history...

People seem to be overlooking the apparent King's ransom Gillis has been seeking. No way should Burke pay a price anywhere close to what was reported at the draft.

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01-03-2013, 01:12 AM
  #729
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
The difference here is when Kessel was acquired he was nearly 15 years younger than Roberto Luongo is right now.

I don't think refusing to move your top young assets for a 33 year old goaltender is tantamount to rebuilding. Staying the course would be a more apt description IMO.



Staying the course? As in hovering around the middle of the pack? Perfect plan there.



If Burke's plan is to muddle around the middle, he's doing a great job. The problem is he started out intending to retool. Got spanked, and now it's just hover above dead last, not completely tanking, but not pushing for it either. He's floundering. If that's a good plan, he's well on his way.



And it doesn't matter that Luongo is 33. In ANA, when Pronger and Niedermeyer were acquired, their best young assets were 22 -23 years old. Your core assets can be super young and the other assets be older... just as long as they're good and they help your team advance.




Quote:
Again, most people's argument is based on what is in Burke's best interests to keep his job. Not what is best for the longterm health of the Maple Leafs. I agree Burke would last longer in Toronto if he acquired Luongo, I'm just not convinced he will sell the farm to secure his future.

Burke won't admit it but he knows full well he misjudged how far his team was from competing when he pulled the trigger on the Kessel deal. Don't see him compounding that mistake by paying a King's ransom to try and sneak into the playoffs. The foundation just isn't there to compete for a cup - you would have to think Burke see's this.



Forget Burke's job for a moment, look at the organizational depth. Burke has ensured that he doesn't have a franchise player coming up through the ranks (again, Reilly withstanding but he's got a ways to go). His real assets are on the main club. That's where he's pooled his prime building blocks. So what does he do? Support them or continue to fail, risking their eventual departure?




If Burke sees that the foundation isn't there, even after making sure his prime assets are on the NHL club instead of the pipeline, then is he an utter failure or what? If there's nothing big to look forward too, and his team won't win as is, then what is he to do? Sit there and "stay the course"? Is that a plan? He won't admit that he has no plan, he doesn't have to, but he has already executed deals to put in place his retool strategy. He's bought in. Wavering now only makes him seem inept, and will only ensure that his team goes nowhere. Is the objective to remain rudderless?

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01-03-2013, 01:17 AM
  #730
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
This doesn't make any sense. Timing is everything when it comes to assembling a roster. Top teams are buyers at the deadline and crap teams are sellers...

The Leafs have had a 2nd, 9th and 5th overall pick in the last 3 drafts. Not exactly a candidate to pillage youth for that final piece to put them over the top.

You want to talk about a team that absolutely has to pay whatever price necessary to acquire Luongo? The Chicago Blackhawks. Now that makes some sense.


Timing is everything from an organizational standpoint too. What push are they waiting for, that they should prolong taking the next step? It's not about putting them over the top. It's about having a plan in place to tank or to improve to compete now. They have done neither, instead choosing to remain in the middle. Hence, embrace mediocrity.



If timing was everything when assembling a roster, why did Burke not take time to draft instead of taking on a 6 year older player in Kessel and choosing to build around him? His team wasn't ready to compete then, so why do that? Why acquire Phaneuf and try to build around him, instead of sluffing off those assets for picks and following traditional rebuild? He didn't have to advance the process then either, so why did he?

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01-03-2013, 01:27 AM
  #731
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
In hindsight, they would. But isn't moving another 1st rd pick before the season even starts just compounding 1 mistake with another? Aren't we supposed to learn from history...

People seem to be overlooking the apparent King's ransom Gillis has been seeking. No way should Burke pay a price anywhere close to what was reported at the draft.
That all depends on their goal and how they think they can achieve it. If the goal is to get into the playoffs ASAP then Luongo, and not draft picks is the solution...if long term contention is the plan then they are going to have to tank for several years more. I'm not sure how long MLSE and fans will be patient if Burke were to approach them with another 5 year plan on top of the last one. Especially when there are no guarantees that it'll even be successful.

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01-03-2013, 01:33 AM
  #732
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post


If timing was everything when assembling a roster, why did Burke not take time to draft instead of taking on a 6 year older player in Kessel and choosing to build around him? His team wasn't ready to compete then, so why do that? Why acquire Phaneuf and try to build around him, instead of sluffing off those assets for picks and following traditional rebuild? He didn't have to advance the process then either, so why did he?
Kessel was 21 when Burke acquired him. Just a kid.

The Phaneuf deal was a no-brainer. Gave up a bunch of filler for a 25 year old impact player with a rare skillset.

Luongo's age make him a poor comparable here. If we're talking Ryan Kesler, I would be willing to bet Burke would pay a King's ransom(Rielly, 1st) to get it done...

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01-03-2013, 01:36 AM
  #733
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Kessel was 21 when Burke acquired him. Just a kid.

The Phaneuf deal was a no-brainer. Gave up a bunch of filler for a 25 year old impact player with a rare skillset.

Luongo's age make him a poor comparable here. If we're talking Ryan Kesler, I would be willing to bet Burke would pay a King's ransom(Rielly, 1st) to get it done...
Is that actually a "King's ransom"? Or is it simply value for value?

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01-03-2013, 01:53 AM
  #734
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Kessel was 21 when Burke acquired him. Just a kid.

The Phaneuf deal was a no-brainer. Gave up a bunch of filler for a 25 year old impact player with a rare skillset.

Luongo's age make him a poor comparable here. If we're talking Ryan Kesler, I would be willing to bet Burke would pay a King's ransom(Rielly, 1st) to get it done...


The argument is getting pieces that coincide with TO's "window". Kessel was just a kid, but guess what, they could have drafted three 18 year old kids with their 1sts. I mean, if they weren't ready to contend, why not go after the youngest assets possible?


Phaneuf is even more an indictment of that as he was 25 over being 18 yrs old. They could have sold those assets for picks, that again would have fallen better in line with their window. But Phaneuf is there to highlight how the plan diverges regardless of ages coinciding with the window. A few high end 18 year olds would have made a lot more sense, so why go after the 25 year old with the rare skill set? Answer: Because he has a rare skill set, just like Luongo.

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01-03-2013, 02:02 AM
  #735
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Next, the contract is so good that it's being made illegal. Last, his age is such that he has 3-4 years of high end play left = more than enough to garner a competitive offer.
I'm sold, let's trade Schneider!!!

Or we can accept the reality that offers that will excite fanboys just aren't going to happens. Hold your breath kids!!

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01-03-2013, 02:02 AM
  #736
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Something tells me, you take the Leaf fans desired trade with the Canuck fans desired trade and it'll be something in the middle lol.

The Leafs would be lucky to have a goaltender like Luongo, I don't get why he gets as much hate as he does by some leaf fans that want nothing to do with him. His Save percentage last year was comparable to the best save percentage we've seen in a decade, and that was done by HOF goalie Belfour. His save percentage the year prior to that was a save percentage I've never seen a leaf goalie accomplish...

In the Last 15 years, the best goalies in the Leafs organizations came from other teams, there is no shame in that. I just see the potential of having Luongo with the Leafs speed and offence(top 10) and it could do wonders for the franchise.

Also, to the poster that stated the Leafs had a terrible PK, yes they did stats wise. However, a lot of that had to do with the team adjusting to the new PK system implemented by Greg Cronin. Once they got the hang of it in December(lol) they were one of the best PK teams in the league statistically. And to be quite honest, once Reimer went down with the concussion/neck injury we simply didn't get the goaltending needed during PK's and that really dropped it down the charts. They have the personnel to do well on the PK, they have some very strong penalty killers individually.

I also don't think Burke would stop once he got Luongo, I have a gut feeling he is targeting Statsny because there had been many rumours throughout the season that he had interest in him. Adding those two players, or players of that calibre, would give the Leafs a real shot in the arm(sorry, always wanted to use that cheesy phrase).

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01-03-2013, 02:09 AM
  #737
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
I'm sold, let's trade Schneider!!!

Or we can accept the reality that offers that will excite fanboys just aren't going to happens. Hold your breath kids!!



What reality? Why are you talking so matter of fact? Luongo hasn't been traded yet! Lol. I think what we need here is another craigcaulks analogy. That's what will set us right.

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01-03-2013, 02:33 AM
  #738
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What reality? Why are you talking so matter of fact? Luongo hasn't been traded yet! Lol. I think what we need here is another craigcaulks analogy. That's what will set us right.
What I meant to say was "GM's can't wait to overpay!"

There is no helping some of you. You've spent 7 months saying the same thing so often you starting believing it as fact.

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01-03-2013, 02:44 AM
  #739
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What I meant to say was "GM's can't wait to overpay!"

There is no helping some of you. You've spent 7 months saying the same thing so often you starting believing it as fact.


Who's advocating an overpayment? You've taken the subjective analysis of many, with varying viewpoints and have condensed them to one grouping... Later you condemn that group as being out of touch with reality. It seems you're trying really hard to save us from ourselves, when your stance is inapplicable to all of us. Is that rational to you?



Is a 1st + good prospect "overpayment"? What is fair? If you see people posting what you consider fair value, point it out so that everyone is filled in. Otherwise, it's talking to hear yourself talk.

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01-03-2013, 02:53 AM
  #740
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Who's advocating an overpayment? You've taken the subjective analysis of many, with varying viewpoints and have condensed them to one grouping... Later you condemn that group as being out of touch with reality. It seems you're trying really hard to save us from ourselves, when your stance is inapplicable to all of us. Is that rational to you?



Is a 1st + good prospect "overpayment"? What is fair? If you see people posting what you consider fair value, point it out so that everyone is filled in. Otherwise, it's talking to hear yourself talk.
Kadri, Franson, Bozek and a 2nd was called a terrible deal. If you agree with that you should ready to be disappointed. That is the post I addressed originally.

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01-03-2013, 03:04 AM
  #741
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Apparently you didn't actually watch hockey either.

Points do not equal effective. He wasn't nearly as good in 03/04 as he was before that. He was terrible post Moore. He sucked every year in the playoffs. Still does. But her sure is pretty in the shootout.

That trade was a laugher.
Wow, bit of a jackass, huh.

I never said anything about the trade...

71 points is still an effective NHLer no matter what his +/- was.

I never claimed he was as effective as previous seasons, but he was far from an ineffective player.

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01-03-2013, 03:14 AM
  #742
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
Kadri, Franson, Bozek and a 2nd was called a terrible deal. If you agree with that you should ready to be disappointed. That is the post I addressed originally.

It's not terrible. All I want is a 1st and a good prospect. That's it. I think Bozak + Franson + 2nd can be viewed as the equivalent of a 1st.



So now I really don't get why you've been responding to me.


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01-03-2013, 09:07 AM
  #743
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They gave up the 7th most shots in the league and had one of the worst shot differentials as well. By any metric they were a very poor defensive team - mediocre to bad is an understatement IMO.

Are you factoring in the roster players they would lose to bring in Luongo? If the deal was based around Lupul for example they're not a playoff team last year IMO. If it was pure futures, I would put them as a coin-flip.

As far as Carlyle making them much better, keep in mind this is a team that won 6 of 18 games under their new head coach. I just don't like the leadership and character of that core group, nor the makeup either. Just not at all sold on the top end of that roster.
It's hard to say. The Leafs are a good shooting team, but they'll likely regress some. They do have some guys that are above average shooters, though, so I still think they'll be better than league average. I think the Leafs aren't quite as bad as you suggest, but even if they are, Luongo is good enough to make them a playoff team with no other improvements to the club.

I think the trade would mostly be for futures -- or, if Burke is a ninja, he'll convince Gillis to take the woeful Bozak. I'm not saying Burke should overpay to get Luongo, mind you. I'm saying that it's a rare opportunity to under-pay for a premium asset (with a good cap hit) that would dramatically improve the fortunes of the Leafs. It's too bad for Leafs fans that Burke is also hoping that the already chronically underperforming JVR will find his game while learning to be a center...


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01-03-2013, 10:10 AM
  #744
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Ok, this two contract buyout agreement is huge. IMO, it puts PHI squarely on the map as a Luongo destination. The itch to buy out Bryz will be too great. Especially when they can see a waiting solution.


TOR can buy out Komisarek.


EDM can buy out Khabi to clear room.


Not sure FLA would buy anyone out, but it remains a further option for the if they have to get rid of Upshall's salary.


It opens up more viable options for teams to take on more salary, and in some cases, replace players outright.

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01-03-2013, 11:29 AM
  #745
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Ok, this two contract buyout agreement is huge. IMO, it puts PHI squarely on the map as a Luongo destination. The itch to buy out Bryz will be too great. Especially when they can see a waiting solution.
No way they pay 35 million to buy out Bryzgalov after one season. That's just not happening.

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01-03-2013, 11:31 AM
  #746
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Kadri, Franson, Bozek and a 2nd was called a terrible deal. If you agree with that you should ready to be disappointed. That is the post I addressed originally.
Because it is a terrible deal. It's an enigmatic prospect and a bunch of crap for Luongo. If Gillis made such a trade I certainly hope Aquilini has the sense to fire him on the spot.

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01-03-2013, 11:38 AM
  #747
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Wow, bit of a jackass, huh.

I never said anything about the trade...

71 points is still an effective NHLer no matter what his +/- was.

I never claimed he was as effective as previous seasons, but he was far from an ineffective player.
Only a bit?

Bertuzzi was largely INEFFECTIVE despite his points. Lazy, stupid penalties and poor general play interspersed with some points and basically watching his line become the highly overpaid #2 squad.

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01-03-2013, 12:11 PM
  #748
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Because it is a terrible deal. It's an enigmatic prospect and a bunch of crap for Luongo. If Gillis made such a trade I certainly hope Aquilini has the sense to fire him on the spot.
You and I are in general agreement on this...except I would imagine that Aquaman will be kept aprised of any Luongo movement and I believe Gillis has always made it clear that he is only interested on a deal that helps HIS team.

But screw Burke and the Leafs. I've said from the beginnng why should we help him out...unless he is really willing to pay the price of top end for top end...or at least top end prosects for one of the better, proven goalies in the NHL. Leafs don't want to give up Gardiner? Fine with me. Keep him.

Because the truth for me is, as we face a shortened season, and as long as the cap numbers work, I'd much rather keep both of our top end goalies in a sprint to the Cup.

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01-03-2013, 12:18 PM
  #749
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You and I are in general agreement on this...except I would imagine that Aquaman will be kept aprised of any Luongo movement and I believe Gillis has always made it clear that he is only interested on a deal that helps HIS team.

But screw Burke and the Leafs. I've said from the beginnng why should we help him out...unless he is really willing to pay the price of top end for top end...or at least top end prosects for one of the better, proven goalies in the NHL. Leafs don't want to give up Gardiner? Fine with me. Keep him.

Because the truth for me is, as we face a shortened season, and as long as the cap numbers work, I'd much rather keep both of our top end goalies in a sprint to the Cup.
Exactly! A team that can't score but has two elite goalies is still stronger than a team that can't score but has only one elite goalie.

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01-03-2013, 12:27 PM
  #750
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No way they pay 35 million to buy out Bryzgalov after one season. That's just not happening.

If one team is capable and willing to do something like that, it's them. This is their golden chance to get out of that contract. Not sure if he has an NMC either, but in any event, they will think hard on doing this. It's not cut and dry just because of the money, Comcast can more than afford it. It's the the viability of Bryz there long-term given his current play.



Could go either way.

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