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Paul Krugman Calls Out Republican Hypocrisy on the "Fiscal Cliff"

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Old
12-22-2012, 04:30 AM
  #76
Ilkka Sinisalo
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
So good luck Obama. You want to send us over the fiscal cliff by vetoing a bill that would cut taxes for middle class families because we aren't "taxing the rich" enough? Do so at the risk you become very unpopular.
Obama ran for re-election on a platform of higher taxes for the rich. He won, and the Democrats also performed well in the Senate and House elections. Now Obama is, as promised, proposing higher taxes on the rich, an idea which the majority of Americans agrees with. The GOP is balking at this. And you think that this will reflect badly on OBAMA?

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12-22-2012, 05:26 AM
  #77
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The country is overwhelmingly in favor of taxing the rich. It ain't Obama who will suffer over this issue.

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12-22-2012, 05:30 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
So your defence of blowing 1 trillion $ is ignorance?
Obama didn't "blow" $1 trillion - he brought the economy from 9 percent contraction to 3 percent growth and 700,000 jobs lost a month to monthly job growth ever since.

What is it with your side and statistics? You refuse to accept polling data, you refuse to accept climate data and you even refuse to accept GDP and job growth statistics. This is why your side's chances of winning elections are declining every year. The further removed you are from reality, the further removed you'll be from the majority reality-based electorate.

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12-22-2012, 07:19 AM
  #79
Panteras
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I have to say that I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to economics, it's not something that interests me. But with that said, even without knowing detailed specifics, some things are truly beyond me.

It just seems pretty self evident that cutting spending isn't going to do the trick, you also have to have some sort of tax revenue.

Also, wanting to cut spending everywhere, but not in the biggest sector that the government spends money (the military) is dumbfounding. Specially since we could probably cut billions upon billions and still be the world's #1 military spender...

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12-22-2012, 08:58 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Panteras View Post
I have to say that I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to economics, it's not something that interests me. But with that said, even without knowing detailed specifics, some things are truly beyond me.

It just seems pretty self evident that cutting spending isn't going to do the trick, you also have to have some sort of tax revenue.

Also, wanting to cut spending everywhere, but not in the biggest sector that the government spends money (the military) is dumbfounding. Specially since we could probably cut billions upon billions and still be the world's #1 military spender...
Actually, it seems like you understand it completely.

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12-22-2012, 09:16 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by BrainOfJ View Post
I would argue that this wasnt a result of the president...but of the business cycle finally hitting its trough. Just as it's peak(incredible gdp, 4% unemployment, stock market through the roof) wasn't a result of Bush's policies.
And jobs arent growing..unemployment claims are falling, big difference haha. Workforce participation is at like a 50 year low today.

As far as the fiscal cliff goes...I have been(have to) watch this thing very closely.. I thought the rejection of plan B wasnt smart just cause now it is "we either get a deal done or we throw our country into recession." Without a temporary back up plan...but I also didn't like the rejection of Obamas plan. 400k is a solid compromise on tax rates and ir offered a good chunk of spending cuts. Maybe not 100% of the cuts republicans would like to see...but a significant amount without a doubt. I thought it was a very well balanced plan that republicans should have accepted.

I also hate that republicans went on recess.
I feel like accepting Plan B is like saying, the Republicans lost the election, but we'll let them dictate policy regardless.

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12-22-2012, 10:17 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by BrainOfJ View Post
I would argue that this wasnt a result of the president...but of the business cycle finally hitting its trough. Just as it's peak(incredible gdp, 4% unemployment, stock market through the roof) wasn't a result of Bush's policies.
And jobs arent growing..unemployment claims are falling, big difference haha. Workforce participation is at like a 50 year low today.
I don't think that makes sense - a 12 point GDP swing and 700K jobs lost to, what, 250K months created, within a couple of months.... and that's the natural business cycle? And coincidentally there was a massive stimulus program at the same time, which had no effect at all? How realistic is that?

Jobs are being created though... not fast enough to keep up with population growth, it's clearly not all attributable to people dropping out of the workforce.

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12-22-2012, 10:45 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by BrainOfJ View Post
I dont see that at all. I see it as a "well heres something that is temporary which covers what we agree on right now in case we dont get this solved...so we can continue with finding a real solution going forward."

Plan B right now is better than the alternative of no plan and tax raises on everyone.
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12-22-2012, 11:03 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by BrainOfJ View Post
I dont see that at all. I see it as a "well heres something that is temporary which covers what we agree on right now in case we dont get this solved...so we can continue with finding a real solution going forward."

Plan B right now is better than the alternative of no plan and tax raises on everyone.
Disagree.

Just let the tax cuts expire and then watch the dems introduce a tax bill in the New Year that will cut taxes for everyone making less than $250,000.

The Republicans going to vote against a tax cut? I think not.

Plan B would never have made it out of the senate to the President's desk because it was not a viable plan.

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12-22-2012, 11:55 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by BrainOfJ View Post
Thats risky though...you're expecting politicians to do the right thing

Plan B wasnt a plan..but meerly an extension of time in my eyes. That's why I think it should have been looked at. If they passed plan B and then worked off of what the president offered...Imo that would be the best way to go about it. That way, if there is no solution by the 31st...youre not putting the whole country at risk while you continue to negotiate. Of course, had the accepted Obamas plan like they should have...we wouldn't even be worrying about this anymore
Right! And then let the Rep's hold the debt ceiling hostage until they get everything else they want.


House GOP Claim: Does not raise taxes. It is a net tax cut that prevents a $4.6 trillion tax hike on January 1

Reality: In fact, by allowing several key tax credits to expire –including the expanded Child Tax Credit and a credit that helps with higher education tuition — Plan B would raise taxes on 20 million families. Also, allowing the current payroll tax cut to expire will affect every working American. As the Tax Policy Center noted, “Most low income and middle income families with children will see their taxes rise.”

House GOP Claim: Permanently extends income tax rate cuts for Americans making less than $1 million, which protects 99.81 percent of all taxpayers

Reality:
This plan would raise just 15 percent of the revenue of Obama’s campaign proposal to allow the Bush tax cuts to expire on income in excess of $250,000. As Citizens for Tax Justice noted, “millionaires get 50 percent of the additional tax breaks from moving the threshold to $1 million.”


House GOP Claim:
Permanently extends the current estate and gift tax ($5 million at 35 percent and indexed for inflation)

Reality: Keeping the estate tax at this level means that a miniscule 0.2 percent of estates will face the tax, costing the government billions in revenue every year. All of the benefit goes to the very wealthiest Americans.

House GOP Claim: Permanently extends parity for capital gains and dividend taxes, preventing dividend taxes from being taxed at the highest rates

Reality: Similar to the voter-rejected Romney tax plan, this would be another handout to the wealthy. President Obama has proposed allowing the Bush tax cut on dividends to expire for high-income earners.


House GOP Claim:
Does not include anything on the debt limit or other non-tax policy items

Reality: This means that federal unemployment benefits will expire for two million workers, and gives the Republicans the opportunity to hold the debt limit hostage when it needs to be raised in a few months.

Who won the election again?

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/201...cts/?mobile=nc

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Last edited by Led Zappa: 12-22-2012 at 12:01 PM.
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Old
12-22-2012, 11:58 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panteras View Post
I have to say that I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to economics, it's not something that interests me. But with that said, even without knowing detailed specifics, some things are truly beyond me.

It just seems pretty self evident that cutting spending isn't going to do the trick, you also have to have some sort of tax revenue.

Also, wanting to cut spending everywhere, but not in the biggest sector that the government spends money (the military) is dumbfounding. Specially since we could probably cut billions upon billions and still be the world's #1 military spender...
Bring the troops home ASAP. Put some stimulus into the local economy by having massive infrastructure plans. Get local business going and start rebuilding America instead other countries. It will get various local businesses producing things and putting money in the pockets of middle class Americans rather than multi billionarire dollar arms corporations. There is no point at all in raising taxes to spend on over seas wars.
I believe stimulus packages can work when done in the right way but why do it to kill people over seas?
The democrats are just as "war mongering" as the GOP. There are many fiscally responsible "classic" conservatives that would definitely get out of overseas wars.
I am not totally against taxing the richest people but least cut a significant portion out of the defence budget. In reality, there are way too many people getting very rich to stop the gravy train.

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12-22-2012, 12:19 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrainOfJ View Post
Zappa...for some reason it wont let me reply to your post directly...but how does all of that add up as compared to just going off the cliff with no deal in place at all?

No deal would be much more detrimental than the temporary plan B. Rather than pointing the fingers and playing the blame game, these guys need to put the god damn party politics aside and do something for us taxpaying citizens for a change.

But of course...its being ignored that I completely support Obama's proposed plan. This place
I'm simply pointing out that they didn't extend "all" tax cuts as you inferred and that going with that deal for now would never get us anywhere close to the "Obama" plan, which you said you support, as do I, even though I'm against tying SSI to it.

Did you miss the part where taxes go up on the middle class?

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Old
12-23-2012, 06:38 AM
  #94
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There is no cliff. It is more like a down ramp.

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Old
12-23-2012, 11:38 AM
  #96
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Speaking to Beohner

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama
I just won re-election. You’re asking me to accept Mitt Romney’s tax plan. Why would I do that?

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Old
12-23-2012, 01:27 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by BrainOfJ View Post
Cuts and tax raises kicking in jan 1 is pretty gradual.
Yes but subsequent legislation, and believe me, if Jan 1st passes without a deal there will be subsequent legislation, then said legislation will most certainly be retroactive.

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Old
12-27-2012, 02:44 PM
  #98
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Reuters Top News ‏@Reuters Maybe the Starbucks cups are working? House sets Sunday session as fiscal cliff deadline nears http://reut.rs/RUKOnd

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12-27-2012, 06:41 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
Reuters Top News ‏@Reuters Maybe the Starbucks cups are working? House sets Sunday session as fiscal cliff deadline nears http://reut.rs/RUKOnd
Obama meeting with key leaders on Friday, too.

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12-27-2012, 08:06 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
The Fed fundamentally shifted their focus from keynesianism to monetarism in the 70s. They went from covering stability and unemployment to solely focusing on money supply and inflation.

I thought this was pretty much common knowledge.
I honestly thought the focus of the Fed was responsible for inflation from the onset. When you say stability, I assume you mean the stability of the banking system, right?

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