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Lockout continues Part V - Hockey cancelled till January 14th

View Poll Results: OWNERS OR PLAYERS, who do you support
owners 75 62.50%
players 45 37.50%
Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-10-2012, 10:30 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
An easy way to aleviate some team problems is to make the gap between floor and cap wider.

Don't force teams who don't have fans to spend as much as they have been.

Those teams are just there so the league can have 30 teams, not to service some fictitious fan base.

Let them spend what they can afford.

NHLPA wouldn't like it, but these teams could just be feeder systems until they, if ever, grow a fanbase.
Honestly, if they're going to do that, just fold the teams, absorb the talent, and get send 100 or so players from around the league down to have a career in the minors. The product on the ice will be better, and at least some of the deadbeat teams will be gone. That still won't fix the majority of the teams barely scraping by.

P.S: Thx for posting those images MLG.

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12-11-2012, 12:27 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by mix1home View Post
I read tsn and couple of forums.
When lookout started I think there was a sympathy for players, but now I would say at least 2/3 of fans back Bettman and owners.

I liked couple of points there:

- last NHL offer was good enough
- players should have called the vote on that one
- there is no significant difference between 10 years CBA and 8 years; do players really want to go though this again in 6 years?
- contract length should be fixed in CBA so that there is no collusion allegations by NHLPA later and 5 years as good as any. There is enough of length there and it will end retirement contracts hoax.
I'm still on the players side but I can't for the life of me figure out why they only want the next CBA to last 6 years. They get ***** every time there's a lockout, what's their angle here?

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12-11-2012, 04:31 AM
  #228
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Originally Posted by mix1home View Post
I read tsn and couple of forums.
When lookout started I think there was a sympathy for players, but now I would say at least 2/3 of fans back Bettman and owners.

I liked couple of points there:

- last NHL offer was good enough
- players should have called the vote on that one
- there is no significant difference between 10 years CBA and 8 years; do players really want to go though this again in 6 years?
- contract length should be fixed in CBA so that there is no collusion allegations by NHLPA later and 5 years as good as any. There is enough of length there and it will end retirement contracts hoax.
I would argue it's more than 2/3. The players are decidedly not in hockey fan's good books, although oddly, I find the non-TSN press is probably more pro-PA.

This is a negotiation between two very skilled bargainers and that was reflected in the NHL's latest offer. Every time each side sees an opportunity to gain more for their constituents, they jump on it, no matter how big or small. The NHL has put how many "take-it-or-leave-it" offers on the table? Fehr knew they would be back and low-and-behold, they're going to meet again on Wednesday.

The fight over the CBA term is likely one where the PA is just trying to gain a last bit of leverage. Maybe in the next meeting they trade it off for more lenient contract terms. Getting those restrictions may mean a lot to the NHL, but it also means a lot to the players as it gives them less security and forces similar amounts of money in less years, leaving less cap space.

I fundamentally disagree with taking it to a vote. First of all, if the NHL's offer is good, so is the PA's. They are very similar. Second, Fehr has the mandate to seek the best deal he can get for his constituents. It will go to a vote when he thinks he's satisfied that requirement.

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Also read the article today discussing salaries of Tretiak, Larionov and other USSR hockey stars. They got on average 600 rubles per month, which was about double of what trade person made in USSR.

Not to mention that they did not have the same sport facilities, sport medicine, or equipment and spend many months away from families in looked sport camps with strict minute-by-minute regime.
Is it really fair to compare the salaries of NHL players to those of Soviet players under one of the most brutal regimes in world history?

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12-11-2012, 08:11 AM
  #229
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Is it really fair to compare the salaries of NHL players to those of Soviet players under one of the most brutal regimes in world history?
"one of most brutal regimes in world history" for those players who played in the 1970s - 1990s ??

I grew up in the Soviet Union in the 1980s and half of the 1990s and you could hardly consider it one of the most brutal regimes. Yes we lacked lots of food choice at the grocery store and incomes for families was crap (my parents barely made enough working at research institutes as PHDs to support two kids), BUT it WASN'T brutal.

I had a great childhood (no video games, only a few tv channels and TONS of time outdoors). Played sports, hung out with friends, went to camp a few times...sounds pretty good to me.

There was no genocide, ****, violent crime was very low and almost invisible....meanwhile there was all kinds of terrible atrocities being committed around the world.

USSR was brutal when Stalin was around and made decisions which killed or displaced millions of people, but that was in the 1920s - 1950s several generations earlier.

Thats my 2 cents

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12-11-2012, 08:40 AM
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mix1home View Post
I read tsn and couple of forums.
When lookout started I think there was a sympathy for players, but now I would say at least 2/3 of fans back Bettman and owners.

I liked couple of points there:

- last NHL offer was good enough
- players should have called the vote on that one
- there is no significant difference between 10 years CBA and 8 years; do players really want to go though this again in 6 years?
- contract length should be fixed in CBA so that there is no collusion allegations by NHLPA later and 5 years as good as any. There is enough of length there and it will end retirement contracts hoax.
Good points.

I think 8 years is reasonable for both CBA and contract length, neither of which impacts operating costs.

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12-11-2012, 08:52 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
Is it really fair to compare the salaries of NHL players to those of Soviet players under one of the most brutal regimes in world history?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mix1home View Post
Also read the article today discussing salaries of Tretiak, Larionov and other USSR hockey stars. They got on average 600 rubles per month, which was about double of what trade person made in USSR.

Not to mention that they did not have the same sport facilities, sport medicine, or equipment and spend many months away from families in looked sport camps with strict minute-by-minute regime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruski View Post
"one of most brutal regimes in world history" for those players who played in the 1970s - 1990s ??

I grew up in the Soviet Union in the 1980s and half of the 1990s and you could hardly consider it one of the most brutal regimes. Yes we lacked lots of food choice at the grocery store and incomes for families was crap (my parents barely made enough working at research institutes as PHDs to support two kids), BUT it WASN'T brutal.

I had a great childhood (no video games, only a few tv channels and TONS of time outdoors). Played sports, hung out with friends, went to camp a few times...sounds pretty good to me.

There was no genocide, ****, violent crime was very low and almost invisible....meanwhile there was all kinds of terrible atrocities being committed around the world.

USSR was brutal when Stalin was around and made decisions which killed or displaced millions of people, but that was in the 1920s - 1950s several generations earlier.

Thats my 2 cents
Well in the west the propagand is the old KGB is now the organized crime of Russia, and while there is and has probably always been organized crime in North America, most people are not involved. However, for those that are it would be called brutal.

However, as far as monetary compensation, the government doesn't pay exceptional contracts at any time (except for hidden expense claims), so not surprising if Tretiak and Larionov weren't well paid. Go back in time though NHL players didn't make enough money during the season and had to have summer jobs.

Times change, and thanks to organizing the NHL players now make plenty. Free market has forced other leagues around the world to follow suit.

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12-11-2012, 08:57 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Ruski View Post
"one of most brutal regimes in world history" for those players who played in the 1970s - 1990s ??

I grew up in the Soviet Union in the 1980s and half of the 1990s and you could hardly consider it one of the most brutal regimes. Yes we lacked lots of food choice at the grocery store and incomes for families was crap (my parents barely made enough working at research institutes as PHDs to support two kids), BUT it WASN'T brutal.

I had a great childhood (no video games, only a few tv channels and TONS of time outdoors). Played sports, hung out with friends, went to camp a few times...sounds pretty good to me.

There was no genocide, ****, violent crime was very low and almost invisible....meanwhile there was all kinds of terrible atrocities being committed around the world.

USSR was brutal when Stalin was around and made decisions which killed or displaced millions of people, but that was in the 1920s - 1950s several generations earlier.

Thats my 2 cents
The fist unclenched somewhat past Andropov. Chernenko was mild and he was very sick and passed fairly quickly. I remember being in a shoe store when they announced his death with my mother. One of the cashiers started crying. Gorbachev was all about carving his name in history, a lot of reforms and lifting of the iron curtain.

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12-11-2012, 09:04 AM
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruski View Post
"one of most brutal regimes in world history" for those players who played in the 1970s - 1990s ??

I grew up in the Soviet Union in the 1980s and half of the 1990s and you could hardly consider it one of the most brutal regimes. Yes we lacked lots of food choice at the grocery store and incomes for families was crap (my parents barely made enough working at research institutes as PHDs to support two kids), BUT it WASN'T brutal.

I had a great childhood (no video games, only a few tv channels and TONS of time outdoors). Played sports, hung out with friends, went to camp a few times...sounds pretty good to me.

There was no genocide, ****, violent crime was very low and almost invisible....meanwhile there was all kinds of terrible atrocities being committed around the world.

USSR was brutal when Stalin was around and made decisions which killed or displaced millions of people, but that was in the 1920s - 1950s several generations earlier.

Thats my 2 cents
While I appreciate the first hand account, I cannot agree with it.

The Soviet Union may not have been as bad as it was from the 1920's on through to the 1960's, but it was still a totalitarian state. Citizens were not entitled to a public or private life, the KGB was active and as brutal as ever, dissent was put down with violence, a Russification policy was still being pursued, and most relevant to the topic at hand, wages were insignificant.

The average citizen had difficulty putting food on their table. It is outrageous to compare what Soviet hockey players earned under such a disgusting regime to NHL players who, in theory at least, get paid what the market gives them (when the NHL is not trying to artificially drive down wages).

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12-11-2012, 09:15 AM
  #234
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(when the NHL is not trying to artificially drive down wages).
Lol. This reminds of people that think Bill Gates is evil and Steve Jobs is a godsent.

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12-11-2012, 09:18 AM
  #235
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Lol. This reminds of people that think Bill Gates is evil and Steve Jobs is a godsent.
Not familiar with the salary cap, I guess?

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12-11-2012, 09:20 AM
  #236
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With negotiations possibly to resume later this week between Bettman & Daly & the Fehr bro's the season is all but done. These 2 groups have not and will not agree to terms.

The last chance and best chance for a deal came and went last week when these 2 groups were out of the room and the owners & players had a heart to heart. The NHL made a fair offer and the NHLPA under Fehr's leadership and advice made a big mistake of greedily coming back and whining for more. I agree with Don the NHLPA should have taken the NHL's offer to a vote at that time. NHLPA > high school educated greedy FOOLS! Owners are now dug in pissed off and want Fehr out and will try to break the union.

Both sides are too blame for this ongoing debacle the NHL has too many teams in bad markets and too many teams losing money. And more damage has been done to the game. The PA are idiots flushing big dollar pay cheques down the toilet a third of these scrubs are lucky they even have a job in Bettman's crappy 30 team league.

So in the end the NHLPA ends up down the same failed road Goodenough took them down in 04/05 and Fehr will end up getting dumped by the PA just like his predecessor.

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12-11-2012, 09:24 AM
  #237
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This 5 year contract limit is another example of how stupid the NHL is.

That would only benefit big market teams. Taking away the small market's opportunity to offer a ridiculous term negates their bargaining power. If five years is the max anybody can offer, then why wouldn't the players go to markets where they can maximize their off ice earning potential?

Half way through that CBA, when Nashville, Phoenix and Florida start losing marquee free agents to Toronto, New York and Detroit after just five years, those owners will start complaining that it is too short.

The owners will never settle on a solution. The grass will always be greener to them.

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With negotiations possibly to resume later this week between Bettman & Daly & the Fehr bro's the season is all but done. These 2 groups have not and will not agree to terms.

The last chance and best chance for a deal came and went last week when these 2 groups were out of the room and the owners & players had a heart to heart. The NHL made a fair offer and the NHLPA under Fehr's leadership and advice made a big mistake of greedily coming back and whining for more. I agree with Don the NHLPA should have taken the NHL's offer to a vote at that time. NHLPA > high school educated greedy FOOLS! Owners are now dug in pissed off and want Fehr out and will try to break the union.

Both sides are too blame for this ongoing debacle the NHL has too many teams in bad markets and too many teams losing money. And more damage has been done to the game. The PA are idiots flushing big dollar pay cheques down the toilet a third of these scrubs are lucky they even have a job in Bettman's crappy 30 team league.

So in the end the NHLPA ends up down the same failed road Goodenough took them down in 04/05 and Fehr will end up getting dumped by the PA just like his predecessor.
If the players do that, then they truly are as dumb as you say they are.

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12-11-2012, 09:25 AM
  #238
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Not familiar with the salary cap, I guess?
Actually I am not a fan of it, just because I think it's stupid to limit the richer teams from spending whatever they want. I also would be in favour of buying players from other teams. And I would also get rid of the NMCs and NTCs. What a load of crap.

But as a whole, I support the fact that the business should be able to regulate itself however it sees fit, and union for millionaires is ludicrous. If they want a salary cap, whatever. No unions in European soccer, and they make money hand over fist.

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12-11-2012, 09:31 AM
  #239
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Actually I am not a fan of it, just because I think it's stupid to limit the richer teams from spending whatever they want. I also would be in favour of buying players from other teams. And I would also get rid of the NMCs and NTCs. What a load of crap.

But as a whole, I support the fact that the business should be able to regulate itself however it sees fit, and union for millionaires is ludicrous. If they want a salary cap, whatever. No unions in European soccer, and they make money hand over fist.
European soccer is 10000x more popular then hockey. They are not comparable. In the slightest.

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12-11-2012, 09:31 AM
  #240
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The owners will never settle on a solution. The grass will always be greener to them.


.

Each team has different needs. They are trying to make it a bit easier for the crappy teams to do business.

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12-11-2012, 09:33 AM
  #241
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European soccer is 10000x more popular then hockey. They are not comparable. In the slightest.
On a smaller scale the model can work just the same.

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12-11-2012, 09:37 AM
  #242
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After more thought...there may be one last way of getting a deal done and i believe it has to be done like this...

This week the NHL should place it's final yes or no take it or leave it offer on the table to the PA and make it absolutely clear this is the NHL's FINAL OFFER!

The PA should then put it to a vote. If it's rejected by the PA the season is done. I believe there is a chance the PA may split and accept. Fehr is playing games and trying to get more and more it's time for the NHL to set a deadline with the PA force their hand and say this is it take it by this date so we can give the fans a legit 55-60 game schedule or else we cancel the season.

NHL > make a final offer set a deadline acceptance date.

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12-11-2012, 09:37 AM
  #243
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Lol. This reminds of people that think Bill Gates is evil and Steve Jobs is a godsent.
Well considering bill gates stole Steve jobs ideas then made billions off of it while Steve jobs had to devise a whole new concept so his company could be different which in turned caused apple to crash for a little while, I think it is safe to say bill gates is pretty evil.

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12-11-2012, 09:43 AM
  #244
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Each team has different needs. They are trying to make it a bit easier for the crappy teams to do business.
And in doing so, they will only make things worse. Just like the last lockout.

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12-11-2012, 09:45 AM
  #245
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With no CBA in sight, we've heard a lot about the possibility of the NHLPA dissolving itself with a view to the players initiating antitrust litigation to, in part, get a court to lift the lockout. This process of dissolving the NHLPA has been referred to interchangeably as decertification and a disclaimer of interest. But the terms - as explained by TSN Legal Analyst Eric Macarmalla - are different. Full Story.

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12-11-2012, 09:47 AM
  #246
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The NHL made a fair offer and the NHLPA under Fehr's leadership and advice made a big mistake of greedily coming back and whining for more. I agree with Don the NHLPA should have taken the NHL's offer to a vote at that time. NHLPA > high school educated greedy FOOLS! Owners are now dug in pissed off and want Fehr out and will try to break the union.
These were the guys at the meetings:

I'm sure most of these guys will have finished up the schooling, but they played:

Mayers 4 years Michigan
Toews 2 years North Dakota
Miller 3 years Michigan State
Backes Minnesota 3 years State U - Mankato
Parros 4 years Princeton
St. Louis 4 years Vermont
Westgarth 4 years Princeton
Adams 4 years Harvard
Hainsey 2 years UMass-Lowell
Horcoff 4 years Michigan State
Cammalleri 3 years Michigan
Winnik 3 years New Hampshire
Darche 4 years McGill

Are you using Don Cherry as a voice of informed reason?

The owners want to break the union? You mean force them to decertify so that they are all indpendent contractors without CBA limitations restricted solely by their signed contract with the teams?

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12-11-2012, 09:49 AM
  #247
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here we go
this is it
last rounds

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12-11-2012, 09:58 AM
  #248
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And in doing so, they will only make things worse. Just like the last lockout.
Last lockout addressed some issues but raised news ones. Can't put in a brand new financial system in and not expect any kinks.

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Well considering bill gates stole Steve jobs ideas then made billions off of it while Steve jobs had to devise a whole new concept so his company could be different which in turned caused apple to crash for a little while, I think it is safe to say bill gates is pretty evil.


If you think that every one of Apple's ideas was original and they haven't stolen a single piece of technology, you are sadly mistaken. These companies steal technology and ideas from each other on a daily basis.

The only difference between them is that one of them had a turtleneck and hipsters loved him.

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12-11-2012, 10:04 AM
  #249
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On a smaller scale the model can work just the same.
Debatable. Popularity is what drives the profit. Soccer is the worlds most popular sport, and that popularity, drives extremely high profit margins for the top teams. The whole point of the NHL is parity. If this model was to be adopted, rich teams would simply run the league like they did pre-salary cap.

In soccer, take the EPL for an example. The top teams, ManU, ManCity, Chelsea etc run that league. It is not competitive. You know, without a doubt, that one of those teams will win the league any given year. These teams then move on to champions league, which makes the sport so much more interesting. The NHL doesn't have this channel, which is why league-wide parity is so vital.

There is a lot more to this argument, but I hope you see the point I am trying to make.

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12-11-2012, 10:06 AM
  #250
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Actually I am not a fan of it, just because I think it's stupid to limit the richer teams from spending whatever they want. I also would be in favour of buying players from other teams. And I would also get rid of the NMCs and NTCs. What a load of crap.

But as a whole, I support the fact that the business should be able to regulate itself however it sees fit, and union for millionaires is ludicrous. If they want a salary cap, whatever. No unions in European soccer, and they make money hand over fist.
http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/87...sy-route-nhlpa

Quote:
If there's a hockey player somewhere making a list of pros and cons when it comes to decertification, the lack of clear evidence on the outcome makes it a challenging exercise. Decertification is a powerful weapon, but it's largely untested.

"It is far from the silver bullet," said Gabriel Feldman, director of the Tulane Sports Law Program.

At the very least, it could be the threat that makes the owners move closer to the players as talks face another critical turn this week. It's the last bit of offense the players have left. Followed through to its bitter end, decertification could bring millions in damages to the players and result in an NHL without a salary cap, without a draft and more contractual freedom than the players have ever enjoyed. It would blow up the system as we know it and lead to consequences imagined and unimagined. Although it's highly unlikely things would ever advance that far before a deal is struck between the two sides.

The cons? If this turns into a fight in the courts, this season is lost. If it drags out as court cases tend to do, next year would be gone, too. Sure, there's an endgame where the stars in the league cash in, but the NHL's rank and file would be hurt by the lack of a minimum salary, pensions and other benefits that are included in the CBA.

And then there's the big one. If the players lose the court fight, their last bit of leverage is wiped out. Gone.

It's a serious risk.

The NHL, using the same lawyers, still could take a page from the NBA and file a pre-emptive lawsuit that puts the court fight on more favorable turf. Like, say, New York. In filing its lawsuit, the NBA argued that the players weren't negotiating in good faith because "more than two dozen" players threatened to decertify. But NHL players have mostly been careful not to publicly threaten decertification, and the NHLPA declined a request to speak with Fehr about the topic for this story.

All these factors may be why those who are paid well to guide the players on decision-making are split on the issue. An informal straw poll of 10 NHL player agents resulted in four voting yes for decertification, three for no and three deferring completely to whatever Fehr believes is best.

One, who requested anonymity voted no, saying: "I don't think the league is that scared of decertification."

Kurt Overhardt, whose company KO Sports represents players like Mike Smith, Ryan Kesler and Kevin Bieksa, is ready to dissolve the union right now, citing a lack of meaningful negotiation in the current system.

"Because of Gary [Bettman], [NHL labor lawyer] Bob Batterman and [Bruins owner] Jeremy Jacobs, the big three's unwillingness to negotiate in good faith, the players have no alternative," Overhardt said early last week. "The exposure for the owners is dramatic. It's not for one owner; it's for 30 owners. Hopefully, 29 owners wake up and tell the commissioner to do his job. ... Right now, this guy is not acting like a commissioner. He's acting like a czar."

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