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Lockout continues Part V - Hockey cancelled till January 14th

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Old
12-12-2012, 09:46 AM
  #276
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How do you know the Owners are reluctant?
From TSN Full Story : http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=411413

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After watching negotiations go off the rails in a very public setting last week, the NHL and NHL Players' Association are heading back underground. And they've invited some company.

The NHLPA continued to push for mediation when players and owners gathered in New York last week and the NHL eventually agreed. However, deputy commissioner Bill Daly acknowledged Tuesday that he would carry "no expectations" into the next session.

As recently as last week, Bettman indicated that he didn't think mediators would be able to help bridge the gap in negotiations and questioned why the union continued to ask for their presence after claiming a deal was at hand.

"We're not interested in mediation," Bettman said Thursday. "We went through it a week and a half ago. It was of no value because of the position of the parties. When the mediators weren't available this week, we did what we felt was our own informal mediation in terms of trying to move the process forward, giving where we could.

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12-12-2012, 09:52 AM
  #277
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call me naive, however i created a theory when Sundin retired. I predicted that the leafs would not make the playoffs during the current CBA, which ultimately proved to be correct. I said that the league would enter into another lockout, which ultimately proved to be correct. The final piece to the puzzle was that when play resumed the leafs would not miss the playoffs throughout the entirety of the new CBA agreement, which hopefully proves to be correct.

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12-12-2012, 10:08 AM
  #278
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How do you know the Owners are reluctant?
Good point.

Maybe it was just Bettman who didn't want them, and the owners were open to it.

We know Bettman didn't want them because he said he didn't.

Bettman has also appeared to have no interest in negotiating (take it or leave it being clear) but the owners did negotiate with the players last week.

Hmmm.

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12-12-2012, 10:39 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuruPitka View Post
call me naive, however i created a theory when Sundin retired. I predicted that the leafs would not make the playoffs during the current CBA, which ultimately proved to be correct. I said that the league would enter into another lockout, which ultimately proved to be correct. The final piece to the puzzle was that when play resumed the leafs would not miss the playoffs throughout the entirety of the new CBA agreement, which hopefully proves to be correct.
Well considering the next CBA will likely be 8-10 years, I sure as hell hope you're right about that last part!

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12-12-2012, 11:04 AM
  #280
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YAY MORE GAMES CANCELLED!!!!

That is my next contribution to the fact we are having a full blown lockout. God damn it all thse two sides better be freaking ready for draft day.

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12-12-2012, 11:18 AM
  #281
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How do you know the Owners are reluctant?
Because it was reported that they were in damned near every single media source that talked about the negotiations. Daley himself came out and said they weren't interested in mediators. Kind of makes you wonder how willing they are to make a deal if they aren't willing to have mediators in there to help even when those mediator's suggestions are non-binding.

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12-12-2012, 11:25 AM
  #282
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Because it was reported that they were in damned near every single media source that talked about the negotiations. Daley himself came out and said they weren't interested in mediators. Kind of makes you wonder how willing they are to make a deal if they aren't willing to have mediators in there to help even when those mediator's suggestions are non-binding.
It's because Fehr is asking for so much the NHL won't get what they want if the mediators are in the building. They won't get enough from the players, and they'd give up too much. Bettman doesn't want that.

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12-12-2012, 11:26 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by colchar View Post
Because it was reported that they were in damned near every single media source that talked about the negotiations. Daley himself came out and said they weren't interested in mediators. Kind of makes you wonder how willing they are to make a deal if they aren't willing to have mediators in there to help even when those mediator's suggestions are non-binding.
I haven't been following the media reports.

Why wouldn't they want to make a deal? They'll have to at some point.

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12-12-2012, 11:31 AM
  #284
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Because it was reported that they were in damned near every single media source that talked about the negotiations. Daley himself came out and said they weren't interested in mediators. Kind of makes you wonder how willing they are to make a deal if they aren't willing to have mediators in there to help even when those mediator's suggestions are non-binding.
Mediation is designed to help bridge the gap, but clearly the NHL is not interested in completing a successful deal based on mutual compromise, which is what a negotiator's role is in the process.

Bettman is too busy running back to his office to cancel some more games off the schedule instead of trying to prevent them from being lost.

Its their way or the highway, and we just witnessed how a whole bunch of meaningful talks got flushed down the drain last week " all things offered previously now off the table" according to Bettman as he likes to dictate rather than negotiate a settlement. Take it or leave it, Yes or No is not the way an impartial 3rd party negotiator operates so Bettman doesn't see the process as needed nor wanted.

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12-12-2012, 12:19 PM
  #285
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It's because Fehr is asking for so much the NHL won't get what they want if the mediators are in the building. They won't get enough from the players, and they'd give up too much. Bettman doesn't want that.
Yeah but the mediators can't impose anything that is binding on either party. They are just there to play UN Peacekeeper, act as facilitators, to make sure that both sides are being reasonable, and to keep the discussions going so I cannot see why Bettman would be against it. If anything the mediators said was binding, as in an arbitration hearing, then I could see one or both sides being against it as they could stand to lose but for Bettman to be against using facilitators just reeks of unwillingness to negotiate in good faith. I think he knows the mediators will tell him he is being unreasonable and he doesn't like being told he is wrong.

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12-12-2012, 12:21 PM
  #286
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Mediation is designed to help bridge the gap, but clearly the NHL is not interested in completing a successful deal based on mutual compromise, which is what a negotiator's role is in the process.

Bettman is too busy running back to his office to cancel some more games off the schedule instead of trying to prevent them from being lost.

Its their way or the highway, and we just witnessed how a whole bunch of meaningful talks got flushed down the drain last week " all things offered previously now off the table" according to Bettman as he likes to dictate rather than negotiate a settlement. Take it or leave it, Yes or No is not the way an impartial 3rd party negotiator operates so Bettman doesn't see the process as needed nor wanted.

I agree (see my post above). Bettman is a dictator who is pissed off that he has finally met his match in Fehr - someone who he cannot bully or intimidate. And because of that Gary is acting like a little kid who throws his toys out of the sandbox and stomps off home.

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12-12-2012, 01:07 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by colchar View Post
Yeah but the mediators can't impose anything that is binding on either party. They are just there to play UN Peacekeeper, act as facilitators, to make sure that both sides are being reasonable, and to keep the discussions going so I cannot see why Bettman would be against it. If anything the mediators said was binding, as in an arbitration hearing, then I could see one or both sides being against it as they could stand to lose but for Bettman to be against using facilitators just reeks of unwillingness to negotiate in good faith. I think he knows the mediators will tell him he is being unreasonable and he doesn't like being told he is wrong.
Not the point. The mediators will just give Fehr more leverage to get what he wants. Bettman doesn't want that.

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12-12-2012, 01:52 PM
  #288
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http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/...-oldfield.html

Mediator says NHL and Players aren't far apart and if both sides want a deal, one can be done

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12-12-2012, 02:45 PM
  #289
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http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/...-oldfield.html

Mediator says NHL and Players aren't far apart and if both sides want a deal, one can be done

Oldfield: NHL sides not far apart
Divides on key issues can be bridged
By Dan Oldfield, Special to CBC Sports

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A media blackout, an undisclosed location and mediation ó music to my ears. And it should be music to anyone who wants to get this thing over with.

In 2005 the NHL Board of Governors announced ďa new era of cooperation and partnershipĒ with its players. Itís been rather short as eras go. In seven short years weíve gone from that to dying on hills.

But a good thing about hills is they allow you a better view of the landscape.

Hopefully when Bill Daly and his NHL colleagues climb that hill they will be able to see that the divisions between them and the players arenít as deep as they seem to think.

This latest standoff between the parties seems to have come down to a few key issues. Issues that with a little imagination and a little give and take are not insurmountable.
...
Conclusion

Those are the issues that appear to remain as a block to a new agreement. It wonít be dead easy, but itís hard to believe an entire season would be lost because of them.

Iím betting it wonít be.

Dan Oldfield is the lead negotiator for the Canadian Media Guild, a former journalist, and a longtime hockey fan.

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12-12-2012, 02:48 PM
  #290
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Not the point. The mediators will just give Fehr more leverage to get what he wants. Bettman doesn't want that.
The simple fact that you believe that the 3rd party impartial mediators would side with Fehr, is a strong indication as to which side is holding the hockey World hostage and demands are unreasonable.

You're not wrong in your belief as that is what Bettman believes also would be the case, and he would be asked to be more reasonable and give some concessions if he wants a deal completed.

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12-12-2012, 02:53 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Cor99 View Post
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/...-oldfield.html

Mediator says NHL and Players aren't far apart and if both sides want a deal, one can be done
Fehr also believes the sides are close on the money aspect and only need to negotiate on the few remaining issues let unresolved.

Bettman as you and I know doesn't feel that is the case at all because they're only close if the PA caves into all his other unrealistic demands. In his PC last week Bettman called Fehr out for saying the sides were close, objecting violently to that notion before he packed up talks and went home.

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12-12-2012, 03:13 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
The simple fact that you believe that the 3rd party impartial mediators would side with Fehr, is a strong indication as to which side is holding the hockey World hostage and demands are unreasonable.

You're not wrong in your belief as that is what Bettman believes also would be the case, and he would be asked to be more reasonable and give some concessions if he wants a deal completed.
Why else would he not want the mediators? Why else would the players be saying that they haven't given a thing publicly? They wouldn't be allowed to say these things publicly if they were true. Bettman knows the problem here and he tried to play hard ball but Fehr and the players have the advantage and they know it.

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12-12-2012, 03:40 PM
  #293
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bettman will ruin the optimism somehow
you watch

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12-12-2012, 03:51 PM
  #294
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bettman will ruin the optimism somehow
you watch
There's optimism?

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12-12-2012, 04:31 PM
  #295
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Nick Kypreos ‏@RealKyper
#CBA meeting over. No progress. #NHL remains firm on "take it or leave it" last offer to #NHLPA.

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12-12-2012, 04:34 PM
  #296
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Nick Kypreos ‏@RealKyper
#CBA meeting over. No progress. #NHL remains firm on "take it or leave it" last offer to #NHLPA.
Trying to push the union to fall on the sword and make everyone a free agent.

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12-12-2012, 04:42 PM
  #297
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YAY MORE GAMES CANCELLED!!!!

That is my next contribution to the fact we are having a full blown lockout. God damn it all thse two sides better be freaking ready for draft day.
Once the season is cancelled, and with no tight deadline on the horizon, I think both sides will lose a lot of the "urgency" they've displayed of late.

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12-12-2012, 04:46 PM
  #298
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Trying to push the union to fall on the sword and make everyone a free agent.
That won't happen.

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12-12-2012, 05:05 PM
  #299
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Why else would he not want the mediators? Why else would the players be saying that they haven't given a thing publicly? They wouldn't be allowed to say these things publicly if they were true. Bettman knows the problem here and he tried to play hard ball but Fehr and the players have the advantage and they know it.
Because right now, it's a waste of time. Both sides know where the other stands, and have a decent idea of what the other side is willing to and not willing to give on. A mediator will not suddenly wave a magic wand to make the PA realize why 5 year contract limit is such a great idea.

I expect the mediators will maintain their 0% success rate by the time this lockout is through.

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12-12-2012, 05:06 PM
  #300
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Nick Kypreos ‏@RealKyper
#CBA meeting over. No progress. #NHL remains firm on "take it or leave it" last offer to #NHLPA.
Way to go Bettman hold firm on that "take it or leave it offer" to the scrubs! Now give those greedy dummies a deadline date as well! lol

It's now December 12th and the employees have pushed the owners as far as they are going to go. They can either vote on the deal and accept it or continue to be locked out and continue right on burning up those fat pay cheques when the NHL cancels the season.

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