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Lockout continues Part V - Hockey cancelled till January 14th

View Poll Results: OWNERS OR PLAYERS, who do you support
owners 75 62.50%
players 45 37.50%
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Old
12-23-2012, 11:20 AM
  #826
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From TSN

Quote:
The players have voted overwhelmingly - 706-22 - to give the NHLPA the power of dissolution by way of a disclaimer of interest. As TSN's Legal Analyst Eric Macramalla writes, we've come to a bit of a crossroads. The NHLPA must now decide what it wants to do next. There are options, but with each option comes risk. Full Story.
Judging by the results of the NHLPA vote 706 of 728 players that voted to dissolve the union as opposed to accept the current lousy "take it or leave it offer" from the NHL.

That's 97% of the union opposed, while the Roman Hamrlik types are the small vocal minority that would take the offer as is.

The PA is as resolved to dissolve and take this battle to the courts, as one would suspect when they don't have a negotiating partner.. Hopefully Bettman and the Owners come to their senses soon and return to the table with a better final offer, after realizing the NHLPA is not interested in what they're serving up at present.

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12-23-2012, 11:28 AM
  #827
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
From TSN



Judging by the results of the NHLPA vote 706 of 728 players that voted to dissolve the union as opposed to accept the current lousy "take it or leave it offer" from the NHL.

That's 97% of the union opposed, while the Roman Hamrlik types are the small vocal minority that would take the offer as is.

The PA is as resolved to dissolve and take this battle to the courts, as one would suspect when they don't have a negotiating partner.. Hopefully Bettman and the Owners come to their senses soon and return to the table with a better final offer, after realizing the NHLPA is not interested in what they're serving up at present.
its confusing
but i think the fear of players threatening to take the owners to court forces them to make a better offer the players might prefer
being a lockout the players could get the money back theyve lost if they win in court

correct?

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12-23-2012, 11:41 AM
  #828
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I've had enough of the players whining and crying to the media . If they think they're being treated so badly in the NHL they can go over and play in Europe .

I'm also tired of this bs about how much they've given . If they really agreed to a 50/50 split in revenues this dispute would have been resolved along time ago , buiding in loopholes isn't agreeing to an even split and losing the season to cater to roughly 25% of it's membership is a disgrace .

This being said i do believe they'll be a deal but it won't happened until the last possible second before the season is cancelled . Fehr won't stop shifting the goalposts until then and Bettman has finally realized this .

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12-23-2012, 11:42 AM
  #829
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Originally Posted by p.l.f. View Post
its confusing
but i think the fear of players threatening to take the owners to court forces them to make a better offer the players might prefer
being a lockout the players could get the money back theyve lost if they win in court

correct?
Yes essentially that is the way this card in played.

a) It brings the Owners back to the table with the incentive to get a new CBA deal signed.

or

b) Face the uncertainty of chaos ahead with the union dissolving and US Anti-trust laws allowing for 3 X lost wages as potential damages in lawsuits per NHL player.

So take a player like Crosby for example making $8.7 mil per.. Lost wages due to this illegal lockout (after decertification) for 1/2 a season is $4.35 mil.. 3 X $4.35 mil could result in $13.05 mil in anti-trust fines paid to Sid in a successful court case. Then a complete dissolving of the union thereafter would set all NHL players free.

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12-23-2012, 11:46 AM
  #830
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Originally Posted by p.l.f. View Post
its confusing
but i think the fear of players threatening to take the owners to court forces them to make a better offer the players might prefer
being a lockout the players could get the money back theyve lost if they win in court

correct?
and what happens if the players lose ?

How many players want to lose at least one if not more seasons in salary to gamble that they'll win in court ?

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12-23-2012, 11:50 AM
  #831
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
How many players want to lose at least one if not more seasons in salary to gamble that they'll win in court ?
Well according to the recent NHLPA vote to dissolve the union of 706 Yes and 22 No votes ..

(The players have voted overwhelmingly - 706-22 - to give the NHLPA the power of dissolution by way of a disclaimer of interest...
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=412172 )

The answer to your question would be everyone of those players that voted Yes, or 97% of those that voted.

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12-23-2012, 11:54 AM
  #832
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so the players are confident that they would win in court?
if they lose what happens (other than losing their wages) ?

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12-23-2012, 11:54 AM
  #833
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Would the wealthy clubs be willing to share more revenue is there was something in it for them?

Honestly, Rangers, Leafs, Flyers ... supporting the Islanders, Coyotes ... does nothing to make the league better.

Do you think teams would be more willing to share their revenue if they got a draft picks for Revenue Sharing?

1st. rounder for every 5 million
2nd. rounder for every 3 million
3rd. rounder for every 1 million

So if you provided 13 million you'd get 2 1st. and a 2nd., say at the end of the rounds?
I really like this idea, a slight advantage to the financially successful but not an overwhelming Yankee like dominance.

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12-23-2012, 12:00 PM
  #834
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so the players are confident that they would win in court?
if they lose what happens (other than losing their wages) ?
As long as the Owners continue to inflict their lockout on the players and the fans holding the hockey world hostage, the players are not getting paid anyways.

Essentially the players have nothing to lose as all they're risking is what is already lost today in lost wages even if they lose in court.

A loss in court is break-even, and a win in court is a financial windfall of 3 X lost wages. No downside of any outcome that worst case scenario is what you have now.

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12-23-2012, 12:05 PM
  #835
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Well according to the recent NHLPA vote to dissolve the union of 706 Yes and 22 No votes ..

(The players have voted overwhelmingly - 706-22 - to give the NHLPA the power of dissolution by way of a disclaimer of interest...
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=412172 )

The answer to your question would be everyone of those players that voted Yes, or 97% of those that voted.
I heard how much they were united behind there last leader as well . Where did that support go once the season was lost ?

If this season is lost Fehr will be turfed just like Bob .

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12-23-2012, 12:06 PM
  #836
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
and what happens if the players lose ?

How many players want to lose at least one if not more seasons in salary to gamble that they'll win in court ?
This is speculation:

I think if the players lose, they don't get any compensation, but I don't believe the owners can force the players to negotiate as a union if the union is decertified.

It is the players' association, not the owners' association so if players decertify owners would have to negotiate individually.

IIRC owners have said they'd want all contracts voided, but the owners wouldn't necessarily win their entire suit, so who knows.

It could be all players are released from all contracts ... I'm sure some of the owners would love to see all those superstars on the market, whereas some would see this as a huge set back in building their teams. Oilers losing Eberle, RNH, Hall, Bruins losing Seguin, Islanders with Tavares walking away to the highest bidders.

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12-23-2012, 12:09 PM
  #837
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
As long as the Owners continue to inflict their lockout on the players and the fans holding the hockey world hostage, the players are not getting paid anyways.

Essentially the players have nothing to lose as all they're risking is what is already lost today in lost wages even if they lose in court.

A loss in court is break-even, and a win in court is a financial windfall of 3 X lost wages. No downside of any outcome that worst case scenario is what you have now.
You've skewed the facts Mess . The players are losing salary by not agreeing to the owners offer but you know this already . Going through the courts to decide this matter will cost the players much more than just one year of wages . T

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12-23-2012, 12:10 PM
  #838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
I heard how much they were united behind there last leader as well . Where did that support go once the season was lost ?

If this season is lost Fehr will be turfed just like Bob .
I think Fehr is a much stronger and smarter leader than Bob, with relevant experience in sports labor relations.

Fehr wouldn't be taking this so far if he didnt see victory as a realistic option. He's too calculated.

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12-23-2012, 12:10 PM
  #839
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
I heard how much they were united behind there last leader as well . Where did that support go once the season was lost ?

If this season is lost Fehr will be turfed just like Bob .
Yes, the players learned quite a bit from the last lock-out.

Finally agreeing to a cap and then the owners having succeeded in getting the union leaderless gave them a 24% paycut.

This time they have played the decertification card, and have someone leading them who has played this game against the big US sports owners, not a 2nd. tier league.

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12-23-2012, 12:11 PM
  #840
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
You've skewed the facts Mess . The players are losing salary by not agreeing to the owners offer but you know this already . Going through the courts to decide this matter will cost the players much more than just one year of wages . T
Good thing Fehr is a lawyer then right? Saves a bunch of lawyer fees.

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12-23-2012, 12:13 PM
  #841
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People that support the owners basically support tyranny.

And whats worse, Leafs fans that support the owners basically support tyranny that hampers the Leafs (their own team they support) efforts to get better.

Makes no sense how even a minority of fanbase would support the NHL let alone a majority.

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12-23-2012, 12:13 PM
  #842
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
You've skewed the facts Mess . The players are losing salary by not agreeing to the owners offer but you know this already . Going through the courts to decide this matter will cost the players much more than just one year of wages . T
elaborate ?

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12-23-2012, 12:14 PM
  #843
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I heard how much they were united behind there last leader as well . Where did that support go once the season was lost ?

If this season is lost Fehr will be turfed just like Bob .
Voting to dissolve the talks and union is the same as saying "No thanks" to the latest NHL offer, and therefore accepting the consequences of a lost season.

Fehr works for the NHLPA and if 706 players are united to not accept the current NHL offer, then why would they fire Fehr as losing a season is what they're prepared to do. Only 22 players voted opposed and would take the current deal to save the season.

As long as the Owners don't offer a better CBA to the NHLPA the season will be lost anyways as its the Owners controlling the lockout and the cancelling of games, not the PA.

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12-23-2012, 12:18 PM
  #844
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You've skewed the facts Mess . The players are losing salary by not agreeing to the owners offer but you know this already . Going through the courts to decide this matter will cost the players much more than just one year of wages . T
Interesting that if the owners win their suit the players will be declared free agents, the owners just won't have to pay penalties.

As a Leafs' fan there are some players I'd like to keep, but overall how much pain would there be if the Leafs had to rebuild from scratch and the only asset they could use is their money?

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12-23-2012, 12:18 PM
  #845
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Back in 2006, I suggested that teams be able to trade cap space, so if the Leafs needed to spend to $80 million, they just go and trade $10 million to Phoenix for their unused cap. People were really against that at the time, saying parity would be spoiled, but it really does work like a luxury tax/revenue sharing arrangement on specific instances. But that was when I still cared about the survival of the NHL.

Now I'm just curious as to how the NHLPA and NHL might completely unravel and what a new world order might look like.

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12-23-2012, 12:19 PM
  #846
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Originally Posted by p.l.f. View Post
elaborate ?
The courts won't settle this issue over the course of one summer and the damage to the game will lower revenue for both sides .

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12-23-2012, 12:22 PM
  #847
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Voting to dissolve the talks and union is the same as saying "No thanks" to the latest NHL offer, and therefore accepting the consequences of a lost season.

Fehr works for the NHLPA and if 706 players are united to not accept the current NHL offer, then why would they fire Fehr as losing a season is what they're prepared to do. Only 22 players voted opposed and would take the current deal to save the season.

As long as the Owners don't offer a better CBA to the NHLPA the season will be lost anyways as its the Owners controlling the lockout and the cancelling of games, not the PA.
Putting up a united front for public consumption is fine but if you think there's only 22 players who'll sign the owners present offer if it was put to a vote then you're being foolish .

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12-23-2012, 12:22 PM
  #848
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Interesting that if the owners win their suit the players will be declared free agents, the owners just won't have to pay penalties.

As a Leafs' fan there are some players I'd like to keep, but overall how much pain would there be if the Leafs had to rebuild from scratch and the only asset they could use is their money?
I feel like it would be an amazing free for all. I'd probably start talking to Steven Stamkos' family and sell the idea of coming to Toronto with a fresh start in the NHL get him to talk to PK Subban, Alex Pietrangelo and John Tavares, re-sign some of our guys who might want to stay, fill in the blanks, plan the parade, call it a day...

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12-23-2012, 12:34 PM
  #849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Interesting that if the owners win their suit the players will be declared free agents, the owners just won't have to pay penalties.

As a Leafs' fan there are some players I'd like to keep, but overall how much pain would there be if the Leafs had to rebuild from scratch and the only asset they could use is their money?
yes
thats what i was hearing
pretty bizzare

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12-23-2012, 12:35 PM
  #850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Interesting that if the owners win their suit the players will be declared free agents, the owners just won't have to pay penalties.

As a Leafs' fan there are some players I'd like to keep, but overall how much pain would there be if the Leafs had to rebuild from scratch and the only asset they could use is their money?
As a Leaf fan "Blow it up" is the best thing that could happen to this team.

Supporting the richest most profitable team and paying MLSE prices is best served if they can go freely shopping behind Leaf Nation's funding to buy better players than we have now, and deliver better results on the ice for us in return for that investment.

If Leaf fans want to get more bank (bang) for their investment & entertainment buck, then the NHLPA is taking us right down the road that would benefit us most in the long run, by allowing MLSE to flex its financial muscle to it full capacity for us bringing Stamkos, Tavares and Perry home.

A current CBA that has already forced our team into being the least successful and the only non playoff one in a cap world, is only going to get worse under the next new one.. Short-term 5 year contracts with 5% variance and higher UFA ages, and a 12% players pay-cut of HRR, lowers a $70 mil hard cap to $58-59 mil ceiling, which all cripple MLSE and Leaf fans money even more, and bring further parity. Making an already bad situation even worse.


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