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Old
12-08-2012, 10:11 PM
  #301
Kegs
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
When did I agree? If I did I misunderstood. Leaf fans have already made an agreement with me earlier close to this. No reason to take less now.

Bozak
Kadri
Colborne
Blacker

Not sure why you wouldn't agree to this this, value is very close, and who knows you might get another Finn by keeping that 2nd.
just wow... i wonder if a leaf fan traded rask for raycroft?

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12-08-2012, 10:12 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
When did I agree? If I did I misunderstood. Leaf fans have already made an agreement with me earlier close to this. No reason to take less now.

Bozak
Kadri
Colborne
Blacker

Not sure why you wouldn't agree to this this, value is very close, and who knows you might get another Finn by keeping that 2nd.
My issue is that if we deal Bozak, it's with the intent that Colborne is the one replacing him somewhere in the lineup. We do not have an quality depth in this position. The only other players we have that fill their roles are Grabo (2nd line) and McClement (3rd but should be 4th). Connolly is crap, as is Steckel.

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12-08-2012, 10:16 PM
  #303
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You can add them to the top list.

Also Lupul would be a tough deal as well. Taking 65 points(potentially) could be enough of a subtraction that would make bringing in another goalie(Luongo or whoever) be a counter productive move.
If we added Raymond going the other way, then it's more like 25 points out of your lineup. Plus with Kadri, Colborne, etc, pushing for roster spots, they'd likely also contribute. I don't see Toronto's forward depth as the issue here, imo.

Personally I'd prefer Lupul straight up to almost any Bozak/Colborne/Frattin/2nd package, or whatever it's at right now.

Not that I'd do either, as Lupul has less than a year left on his contract, but Lupul with a small plus is a lot more appealing than 4 decent futures pieces

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12-08-2012, 10:23 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
. That kind of deal is never going to happen. Mike Gillis would be looking for that horseshoe up his rear end if he managed to get that kind of package out of Burke & Nonis for Roberto.

Show me a deal Brian Burke has made since coming to Toronto in which he has shipped out youth with good potential like the players you've listed above for an aging veteran.

You won't find one because it has never happened and the Leafs aren't in a position to do such a thing now either. Heck, he wouldn't let go of Jake Gardiner for Rick Nash, and you think he's going to give up a boatload of potential for Roberto? Ain't happenin' bro.
I saw Blah blah blah blah, just believe me I know everything...

What was a stronger need for you? Wing or Goaltending?

Did you here he is also not trading schen...

Look you can say whatever you want, the simple fact is people on both sides seemed agreeable to it. It is a middle ground, from people like you, and people on our side asking for the moon. (Gradner plus).

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Originally Posted by Kegs View Post
if i was vancouver id make this trade but not if i was toronto... from a non biased point of view... i know kadri takes a lot of heat but i think he will be a good nhl player.

1st issue. isnt this the majority of the leafs centres?

2nd issue. luongo is getting a bit old.

3rd issue. luongo is clearly being moved because he doesnt want to be a backup goalie. this is known by every gm in the league. this lowers his value im pretty sure. esp with luongos no trade clause. he actually has full controll over where he lands... unless he doesnt have this clause?

#1 it is one of their wings, Kadri has been playing the wing. If Bozak is not movable... well good luck getting any goalie never mind Luongo.

#2 Yeah real old when you have two 40 year old goalies in the last two cup finals... and Rollie at 42 the year before, caring his team into the playoffs and into the Conference finals.

#3 this is why the price is not Kessel or Gardiner +++

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12-08-2012, 10:23 PM
  #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
From what I can gather, it seems to me like:

Kessel
Grabovski
Phaneuf
Rielly

Are completely untouchable. Understandable.

But then you have the next tier, of

Lupul
Kulemin
JVR
Finn
2013 1st
Gardiner

type pieces, and imho none of these guys should be untouchable. Toronto has an abundance of wingers and left-side defensemen, and if your trading for a player who instantly becomes your MVP, having that many untouchables is ridiculous.(I'm not saying they all have the same value, simply in terms of current importance to the team)

Out of curiousity, if Toronto was unwilling to come to contract terms with Lupul, would you be willing to include him as a piece?
No untouchables (at least at a reasonable asking price), but majority of those are assets I wouldn't consider dealing for a 34 year old Roberto Luongo. I mean, Dale Tallon won't include Bjugstad in Luongo trade talks (at least from what I have read).. There isn't a significant market for Roberto (according to Cox's previous article), to warrant trading those assets. Just the way I see it right now. The Canucks can wait until more teams enter trade talks, but he isn't getting any younger..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
If we added Raymond going the other way, then it's more like 25 points out of your lineup. Plus with Kadri, Colborne, etc, pushing for roster spots, they'd likely also contribute. I don't see Toronto's forward depth as the issue here, imo.

Personally I'd prefer Lupul straight up to almost any Bozak/Colborne/Frattin/2nd package, or whatever it's at right now.

Not that I'd do either, as Lupul has less than a year left on his contract, but Lupul with a small plus is a lot more appealing than 4 decent futures pieces
He's the other half of the Leafs' primary scoring, and trading him for Luongo wouldn't make any sense.


Last edited by TheLeastOfTheBunch: 12-08-2012 at 10:37 PM.
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Old
12-08-2012, 10:36 PM
  #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
When did I agree? If I did I misunderstood. Leaf fans have already made an agreement with me earlier close to this. No reason to take less now.

Bozak
Kadri
Colborne
Blacker

Not sure why you wouldn't agree to this this, value is very close, and who knows you might get another Finn by keeping that 2nd.
Not bad, but the Leafs are giving up next to no cap.

Unless the cap stays high, the Leafs need to send back more salary assuming this deal takes place before the offseason.

Either Lombardi must be added, or (better in my opinion) replace Bozak with Connolly + 3rd or something. The second one works better for the Leafs as Bozak fits much better with Kessel than Connolly seems to.

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12-08-2012, 10:38 PM
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
If we added Raymond going the other way, then it's more like 25 points out of your lineup. Plus with Kadri, Colborne, etc, pushing for roster spots, they'd likely also contribute. I don't see Toronto's forward depth as the issue here, imo.

Personally I'd prefer Lupul straight up to almost any Bozak/Colborne/Frattin/2nd package, or whatever it's at right now.

Not that I'd do either, as Lupul has less than a year left on his contract, but Lupul with a small plus is a lot more appealing than 4 decent futures pieces
If, as you mentioned earlier, Lupul/Leafs were at odds contract wise I would definitely consider moving him for Luongo.

The search for a top line winger would then begin, starting with Kadri/JVR as hopefuls.

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12-08-2012, 10:40 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by TheLeastOfTheBunch View Post
No untouchables (at least at a reasonable asking price), but those are assets I wouldn't consider dealing for a 34 year old Roberto Luongo. I mean, Dale Tallon won't include Bjugstad in Luongo trade talks (at least from what I have read).. There isn't a significant market for Roberto (according to Cox's previous article), to warrant trading those assets. Just the way I see it right now. The Canucks can wait until more teams enter trade talks, but he isn't getting any younger..



He's the other half of the Leafs' primary scoring, and trading him for Luongo wouldn't make any sense.
Luongo is 33, and hasn't shown any signs of declining so far. Tallon won't include Bjugstad because he has the best goaltender outside the NHL in his prospect system, so he's not really pressed for an upgrade.

And yes, Lupul is a good player. He also has loads of question marks, same as Luongo, but if the choice were between him and 4 lesser futures, which would you prefer? Not to mention the Leafs have loads of winger depth after him, in Kessel, JVR, Kulemin, Kadri, Macarthur, Frattin, etc, as well as Biggs and Ashton coming in as well. You'd certainly be a better team after the fact.

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12-08-2012, 10:46 PM
  #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
From what I can gather, it seems to me like:

Kessel
Grabovski
Phaneuf
Rielly

Are completely untouchable. Understandable.

But then you have the next tier, of

Lupul
Kulemin
JVR
Finn
2013 1st
Gardiner

type pieces, and imho none of these guys should be untouchable. Toronto has an abundance of wingers and left-side defensemen, and if your trading for a player who instantly becomes your MVP, having that many untouchables is ridiculous.(I'm not saying they all have the same value, simply in terms of current importance to the team)

Out of curiousity, if Toronto was unwilling to come to contract terms with Lupul, would you be willing to include him as a piece?
The way I see it:

I don't think Kulemin or Lupul are untouchable necessarily, its just that you'll see many of us unwilling to give them up because of Lupul's role on the team and Kulemin's value swinging so low after last year (unwilling to sell low I think is a good way to describe it). Even trading Lupul could be considered selling low due to injury history and contract status (or maybe selling high based on last year, depending on your perspective I guess).

JVR is not untouchable but he is unlikely to be traded after just being acquired.

Gardiner isn't untouchable but he's likely only available for a young, high potential player at another position (center, goalie).

Finn and the 2013 1st are available for the right price. Trading 1sts is highly controversial around Toronto in this day and age however.

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12-08-2012, 10:47 PM
  #310
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What about something like Lupul and Connolly/Bozak for Luongo and Raymond/? (fill in a preference)? We take on some salary but address both our needs, while Toronto shores up their goaltending and only downgrades on scoring instead of subtracting completely. Perhaps, include a conditional pick if Lupul doesn't resign.

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12-08-2012, 10:50 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Luongo is 33, and hasn't shown any signs of declining so far. Tallon won't include Bjugstad because he has the best goaltender outside the NHL in his prospect system, so he's not really pressed for an upgrade.

And yes, Lupul is a good player. He also has loads of question marks, same as Luongo, but if the choice were between him and 4 lesser futures, which would you prefer? Not to mention the Leafs have loads of winger depth after him, in Kessel, JVR, Kulemin, Kadri, Macarthur, Frattin, etc, as well as Biggs and Ashton coming in as well. You'd certainly be a better team after the fact.
Would Toronto be a better team if they traded Lupul for Luongo? Yeah, could be.

The issue is yes we have winger depth but none are on Lupul's level at this moment in time. In throws up more question marks in an already question mark ridden forward group. Like I've said before, if this was next year with more time for JVR, Kadri etc. to assert themselves and Kulemin to re-assert himself you might see us agreeing. Now, however, I hope you can see why we are squeamish.

Another factor that could come in is Lupul's gripe with Carlyle. I know publicly they've said its behind them but you never know...could be politics.

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12-08-2012, 11:04 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Do you have a link saying the NHLPA wants that? As it doesn't make much sense to me. Also, teams like the NYR that have Redden in the minors are unlikely to be for that. But none of this means anything unless the new CBA actually changes the rule.

Either way, because

Do you think he'd want to play out the end of his career riding the bus, regardless of if his cap hit still counts? I doubt it, but it seems like your own argument works against you here.

All I said was that Luongo will be paid much less so there is much less incentive for him to play. But I suppose it does make sense that he would purposely force himself on a team when he knows he's no longer wanted, as that seems absolutely consistent with how he's conducted himself so far.[sarcasm]



So because no one knows anything just assume the contract is bad. In my opinion GMs are smart enough to realize that there are enough options available that it's virtually impossible for there to be no options left.



Yeah, and Kadri might bust, Kulemin remain a 7 goal scorer, etc, etc. Risk cuts both ways. It's not like any of the offers have included any surefire impact players for us.
Look, if you're so certain of Luongo's contract being 6 years instead of 9 like it says on paper... keep him.

As for the risk aspect... anything carries risk. The difference is with young players, the realistic expectation is improvement, and the Leafs need to be relying on young players.

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12-08-2012, 11:05 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
What about something like Lupul and Connolly/Bozak for Luongo and Raymond/? (fill in a preference)? We take on some salary but address both our needs, while Toronto shores up their goaltending and only downgrades on scoring instead of subtracting completely. Perhaps, include a conditional pick if Lupul doesn't resign.
Interesting thought...

I would think that Connolly makes more sense as it would be iffy to blow up 2/3rds of our 1st line from last year.

I'm not 100% sold on Raymond to be honest. To me he would slot in behind MacArthur on the 3rd line as recently he hasn't provided much scoring which won't help us in our dilemma.

Is there another winger you might be willing to part with?

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12-08-2012, 11:08 PM
  #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Look, if you're so certain of Luongo's contract being 6 years instead of 9 like it says on paper... keep him.

As for the risk aspect... anything carries risk. The difference is with young players, the realistic expectation is improvement, and the Leafs need to be relying on young players.
I'd be fine keeping Luongo, and trading Schneider. The thing is it's far more likely that teams like Chicago, Edmonton, Toronto, Columbus, whoever, are far more likely to want an established starter, which is why I believe there would be more interest in Luongo than Schneider(regardless of what their values are at).

And I've been saying all along that if Toronto wanted to base it around an older player like Lupul, Phaneuf, Grabovski, whoever, I'd much prefer that to a package involving multiple futures.

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12-08-2012, 11:09 PM
  #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Luongo is 33, and hasn't shown any signs of declining so far. Tallon won't include Bjugstad because he has the best goaltender outside the NHL in his prospect system, so he's not really pressed for an upgrade.

And yes, Lupul is a good player. He also has loads of question marks, same as Luongo, but if the choice were between him and 4 lesser futures, which would you prefer? Not to mention the Leafs have loads of winger depth after him, in Kessel, JVR, Kulemin, Kadri, Macarthur, Frattin, etc, as well as Biggs and Ashton coming in as well. You'd certainly be a better team after the fact.
Luongo will be turning 34 in about 4 months or so, my mistake. Exactly how many teams are hard pressed, outside of the Leafs, of acquiring Luongo?

Outside of Phil, none of those guys can be expected at this point to provide offence consistently. Leafs would be better team if they trade 3-4 lesser pieces (with few of them being prospects).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
What about something like Lupul and Connolly/Bozak for Luongo and Raymond/? (fill in a preference)? We take on some salary but address both our needs, while Toronto shores up their goaltending and only downgrades on scoring instead of subtracting completely. Perhaps, include a conditional pick if Lupul doesn't resign.
Raymond's also an upcoming UFA.

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12-08-2012, 11:13 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by TheLeastOfTheBunch View Post
Luongo will be turning 34 in about 4 months or so, my mistake. Exactly how many teams are hard pressed, outside of the Leafs, of acquiring Luongo?

Outside of Phil, none of those guys can be expected at this point to provide offence consistently. Leafs would be better team if they trade 3-4 lesser pieces..
Well would you rather pull of a hockey trade that improves both teams, or "sell the farm" so to speak?

Quote:
Isn't Raymond also an upcoming UFA?
As are Lupul, Connolly, and Bozak.

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12-08-2012, 11:15 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
Interesting thought...

I would think that Connolly makes more sense as it would be iffy to blow up 2/3rds of our 1st line from last year.

I'm not 100% sold on Raymond to be honest. To me he would slot in behind MacArthur on the 3rd line as recently he hasn't provided much scoring which won't help us in our dilemma.

Is there another winger you might be willing to part with?
No issues with taking Connolly. That works but unfortunately the other wingers would be Higgins, Hansen and Booth, all of whom are quite valuable in the role we ask. Raymond is expendable mostly due to him and Kesler having utterly no chemistry. So it'd have to be a pick or something if not Raymond.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLeastOfTheBunch View Post
Raymond's also an upcoming UFA.
I'd see that more as a benefit. No commitment for any of us (Lupul/Connolly will be UFAs as van mentioned). I wouldn't be adverse to tossing a conditional pick if he bolts though.


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12-08-2012, 11:17 PM
  #318
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I love this. You're like one of mt staff that always thinks she's right so she thinks everyone else is retarded.

Having a $10m cap hit that costs $1m would be valuable to some teams.
And having a potential back up goalie in ages 38-42 that carries a 5.3 million dollar cap hit is great value and excellent cap management. Not to mention the uninsured value of approx 13 million dollars in salary is great value for teams generating lower revenues? Of course there is this notion of burrying Lou's cap hit when he is older, which will no longer be allowed.

It's one thing to disagree, but never once did I say nor has anyone been called "retarded". I have a hard time seeing anyone over the ages of 12 using that terminology. The pattern is there, some posters making things up to push their agenda, as well as make believe name calling. All this information is readily available to anyone who choses to search for it. Very few teams will be willing to take on that contract, no question about. Continue dreaming up as many scenarios as you like, the facts are the facts, and with how much Nucks fans value him, leadership etc, it would clearly be in the best interest for the Nucks organization to keep him, and his contract.

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12-08-2012, 11:22 PM
  #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Well would you rather pull of a hockey trade that improves both teams, or "sell the farm" so to speak?
In your original post:
Quote:
I'd prefer Lupul straight up to almost any Bozak/Colborne/Frattin/2nd package
I wouldn't call the latter a "sell the farm" type move. I'd rather opt for that than trading Lupul, easily since trading for Roberto would put us in a win now mode for the next 5 seasons or so. Trading Lupul for Luongo doesn't make the team a clear playoff contender IMO, now with a suspect offence and defence..


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12-08-2012, 11:23 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
No issues with taking Connolly. That works but unfortunately, the other wingers would be Higgins, Hansen and Booth, all of whom are quite valuable in the role we ask. Raymond is expendable mostly due to him and Kesler having utterly no chemistry. So it'd have to be a pick or something if not Raymond.
Yeah Higgins, Hansen and Booth are all players I'd be interested in acquiring but you mentioned Vancouver wouldn't be interested in moving them. Unfortunately none of them recently have shown capable of providing a strictly points punch that would slot them ahead of MacArthur in terms of scoring I don't think. Higgins/Hansen would certainly be a 3rd line upgrade though.

Lupul + Connolly for Luongo + Replacement Winger is a very interesting idea. The question being...who fits the replacement bill?

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12-08-2012, 11:29 PM
  #321
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My issue is that if we deal Bozak, it's with the intent that Colborne is the one replacing him somewhere in the lineup. We do not have an quality depth in this position. The only other players we have that fill their roles are Grabo (2nd line) and McClement (3rd but should be 4th). Connolly is crap, as is Steckel.
Keep Bozak, give us a first.

Done.

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12-08-2012, 11:31 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
Yeah Higgins, Hansen and Booth are all players I'd be interested in acquiring but you mentioned Vancouver wouldn't be interested in moving them. Unfortunately none of them recently have shown capable of providing a strictly points punch that would slot them ahead of MacArthur in terms of scoring I don't think. Higgins/Hansen would certainly be a 3rd line upgrade though.

Lupul + Connolly for Luongo + Replacement Winger is a very interesting idea. The question being...who fits the replacement bill?

Higgins was on a huge tear in the latter half of the season last year. He had some issues with infections and missed a bunch of games though. He would be an upgrade on MacArthur, maybe not physically or goal scoring, but I think he'd outscore MacArthur and be a viable pker.

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12-08-2012, 11:44 PM
  #323
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Higgins was on a huge tear in the latter half of the season last year. He had some issues with infections and missed a bunch of games though. He would be an upgrade on MacArthur, maybe not physically or goal scoring, but I think he'd outscore MacArthur and be a viable pker.
I think Higgins would be an excellent addition but I don't think he makes the loss of Lupul more palatable.

If Lupul + Connolly for Luongo + Higgins was the theoretical trade I think its close in a value sense but that leaves the Leafs with something like:

Van Reimsdyk-Bozak-Kessel
MacArthur-Grabovski-Kulemin
Higgins-McClement-Kadri/Frattin

as the top 9. That's an awful lot of question marks.

Should be good defensively though...

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12-08-2012, 11:51 PM
  #324
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Bozak
Kadri
2nd (becomes 1st if Toronto makes playoffs)

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Old
12-08-2012, 11:53 PM
  #325
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Originally Posted by BigMacJokinen View Post
Bozak
Kadri
2nd (becomes 1st if Toronto makes playoffs)
Change Bozak to Kulemin, add Raymond and I'd take it. Although if that was the deal I wouldn't be too disappointed

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