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Old
12-11-2012, 03:04 PM
  #876
y2kcanucks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
How do you figure. Bozak is your 3C that can slot in when Kes is injured. MacArthur is the 2nd line winger to complete the second line. Outside of the fact that they are both UFA's, a point that I forgot, that's pretty sound. It's possible that Gillis can work a deal out with either of them before hand.

I think the first more projects to be 15-18 to be honest, lets not go crazy here, and that gives Vancouver 2 firsts in the next draft. Good trade material, or help that depleted prospect pool. Hell toronto's pick may not even hit that high. It could be tenth or 11th or w/e. As they say, Rome wasn't built in a day.

Don't get me wrong, I like Joffery Lupul. I really do. But for him to be the center piece of a deal like this makes me wary. He does have a history of injuries, and there is a chance that he produced as well as he did because he was playing with Kessel.
Bozak doesn't help us at all. As a 1C with the Leafs his point total was significantly lower than his linemates. When playing with inferior linemates his point total will drop significantly from the 48 he put up last year. I would much rather keep Luongo and roll with Lapierre/Schroeder/Malhotra as our 3C than trade a star goalie for Bozak. And if neither of our internal options work, then we can trade a 1st or 2nd round pick for a better option, not Roberto Luongo.

MacArthur is not an upgrade on Higgins, Hansen, or Raymond, so why would he be a good choice for our 2nd line RW spot? It makes no sense to bring in more of what we already have that we need to UPGRADE on. So no, the idea is not sound at all.

If you aren't offering Lupul, there are a few other pieces that the Leafs could offer that would make the Canucks interested. Bozak and MacArthur are not those pieces.

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12-11-2012, 03:08 PM
  #877
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
If you aren't offering Lupul, there are a few other pieces that the Leafs could offer that would make the Canucks interested. Bozak and MacArthur are not those pieces.
Mike Gillis was targeting Bjugstad of Florida as the main piece in a Roberto deal. Not surprisingly, Tallon turned him down.

You're insistent on a top six solution to a Roberto deal but apparently Mike Gillis would be just fine with a futures return instead.

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12-11-2012, 03:10 PM
  #878
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Originally Posted by MakeTheIronSing View Post
Again, the thread has gone... again, to another different value for Luongo, now its a 1st rounder a 3rd line centreman, a AHL level winger, Clarke MacArthur and a 2nd.

There's zero consensus amongst Canucks fans of the value of this guy. And nobody has even mentioned a goalie in return for him. ???

Yesterday he needed to be moved for top 6 holes, then it was to supplement right wings, then it was to acquire 2 blue chip defenders, then it was 3 first rounders (which I'm still at a loss for words about), now its 1st rounder a 3rd line centreman, a AHL level winger, Clarke MacArthur and a 2nd.

If I didn't know any better, Canuck fans would make it seem there as hard up for talent as the Leafs are.
Different fans have different opinions of Luongo's value. That said, I find this post somewhat disingenuous but will assume you have not read through much of it. While Y2K has always demanded a higher return, numbers, myself, vankiller, cogburn and Bleach have all been pretty consistent in our expectations. At no point have any of us demanded three firsts or two blue chip prospects. So again, you are making assumptions of the fanbase that simply did not occur.

Joffrey Lupul
Nikolai Kulemin
Nazem Kadri
Tim Connolly
Tyler Bozak
Joe Colborne
Matt Frattin
Matt Finn
1st (either 2013 or 2014)
2nd 2013

Some combination of those players or picks have sought for, obviously with numerous various. Frankly, I'd prefer less if it meant Lupul but regardless a good combination of this group is what we want. MacArthur is not an interesting starter by any means as he does not upgrade our roster.

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12-11-2012, 03:10 PM
  #879
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
If the Canucks can trade one of the goalies for an asset that addresses our major need then a deal will get done I'm sure. But that doesn't mean Gillis is going to just give Luongo away for Bozak and a 2nd like some have suggested.
Yep. The only thing Bozak and a 2nd would get is Gillis fired (Or Nikolai Khabibulin)

Personally I am in favour of getting a package of futures and picks for Luongo to flip at the trade deadline or if the season is cancelled the draft. There are very few pieces that T.O has that would fit into our line-up and none leaf fans seem willing to part with. The only roster player/cap dump I would consider taking that the leaf fans here have indicated would be available is McArthur and only if we send Raymond out in the deal with Toronto or a separate deal with another team.

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12-11-2012, 03:17 PM
  #880
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
If the Canucks can trade one of the goalies for an asset that addresses our major need then a deal will get done I'm sure. But that doesn't mean Gillis is going to just give Luongo away for Bozak and a 2nd like some have suggested.
Gillis may hold out for a better return, but if the return you are looking for is a high end 2nd line winger/borderline 1st line winger, I think other GMs decline.

The perspective of many Leafs fans and fans of other discussed teams is that if they can't get Luongo for discount, they won't get him. There is a wildly varying opinion on what exactly discount means (from Bozak + 2nd to more valuable futures packages) but I don't think Gillis will receive a package of the magnitude that addresses your "major needs" as you say.

I could be wrong on this of course, but if you and Gillis are on the same page it seems to me Luongo won't be moving. Time to revisit the Schneider thread?

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12-11-2012, 03:22 PM
  #881
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
Gillis may hold out for a better return, but if the return you are looking for is a high end 2nd line winger/borderline 1st line winger, I think other GMs decline.

The perspective of many Leafs fans and fans of other discussed teams is that if they can't get Luongo for discount, they won't get him. There is a wildly varying opinion on what exactly discount means (from Bozak + 2nd to more valuable futures packages) but I don't think Gillis will receive a package of the magnitude that addresses your "major needs" as you say.

I could be wrong on this of course, but if you and Gillis are on the same page it seems to me Luongo won't be moving. Time to revisit the Schneider thread?
& we've had threads since July where Canuck fans are saying we aren't giving Luongo up for a discount yet here we are.....
If you only want him at a discount, have been told you're not getting him for a discount & you continue coming back... who is the one really in need?

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12-11-2012, 03:25 PM
  #882
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Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
& we've had threads since July where Canuck fans are saying we aren't giving Luongo up for a discount yet here we are.....
If you only want him at a discount, have been told you're not getting him for a discount & you continue coming back... who is the one really in need?
Might want to check the thread(s). There have been discussions between Leaf and Canuck fans for ballpark prices I consider decent.

Just because fans such as yourself and Y2K don't agree, doesn't mean it doesn't make for interesting conversation with those willing to negotiate.

P.S. I don't deny the Leafs are the ones in need of a goalie. Doesn't mean I'd like Burke giving up the sky for Luongo specifically.

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12-11-2012, 03:30 PM
  #883
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Bozak doesn't help us at all. As a 1C with the Leafs his point total was significantly lower than his linemates. When playing with inferior linemates his point total will drop significantly from the 48 he put up last year. I would much rather keep Luongo and roll with Lapierre/Schroeder/Malhotra as our 3C than trade a star goalie for Bozak. And if neither of our internal options work, then we can trade a 1st or 2nd round pick for a better option, not Roberto Luongo.

MacArthur is not an upgrade on Higgins, Hansen, or Raymond, so why would he be a good choice for our 2nd line RW spot? It makes no sense to bring in more of what we already have that we need to UPGRADE on. So no, the idea is not sound at all.

If you aren't offering Lupul, there are a few other pieces that the Leafs could offer that would make the Canucks interested. Bozak and MacArthur are not those pieces.
Lupul is UFA in 48 games or less, how could you think he holds value either, even tho he's got the skill we'd be looking for.

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12-11-2012, 03:34 PM
  #884
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
I don't deny the Leafs are the ones in need of a goalie. Doesn't mean I'd like Burke giving up the sky for Luongo specifically.
And that's relative too. What may seem like a little for the Canucks (such as what many here think is fair: Tyler Bozak, Nazem Kadri, Matt Finn, Jesse Blacker, pick), is a lot for the Leafs.

Point: if Roberto is traded to the Leafs, it will be a price that Brian Burke can swallow and it doesn't gut the Leafs of youth or screw their depth in a certain position.

Roberto the goaltender is a wonderful piece. The price to get him that Canucks fans are throwing out there isn't so wonderful.

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12-11-2012, 03:35 PM
  #885
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Originally Posted by skywarp75 View Post
Lupul is UFA in 48 games or less, how could you think he holds value either, even tho he's got the skill we'd be looking for.
Well that's the position I've maintained since the summer. Clearly things are changing, and if there's no season at all then Lupul holds very little value.

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12-11-2012, 03:39 PM
  #886
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
Might want to check the thread(s). There have been discussions between Leaf and Canuck fans for ballpark prices I consider decent.

Just because fans such as yourself and Y2K don't agree, doesn't mean it doesn't make for interesting conversation with those willing to negotiate.

P.S. I don't deny the Leafs are the ones in need of a goalie. Doesn't mean I'd like Burke giving up the sky for Luongo specifically.
For every discussion about a ballpark in players there is 10 discussions with outrageous claims & deals offered (both sides).

Besides there have been ballparks set before & they get blown away & the process goes back in circles again.

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12-11-2012, 03:41 PM
  #887
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And that's relative too. What may seem like a little for the Canucks (such as what many here think is fair: Tyler Bozak, Nazem Kadri, Matt Finn, Jesse Blacker, pick), is a lot for the Leafs.

Point: if Roberto is traded to the Leafs, it will be a price that Brian Burke can swallow and it doesn't gut the Leafs of youth or screw their depth in a certain position.

Roberto the goaltender is a wonderful piece. The price to get him that Canucks fans are throwing out there isn't so wonderful.
Indeed, although the price you listed is a lot but I could see Burke giving up a lot. What I can't see Burke doing is giving up pieces that improve the Canucks' roster to the degree many of their fans are looking for because, simply put, those pieces on the Leafs are far too crucial and not worth moving in this case.

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12-11-2012, 03:47 PM
  #888
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Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
For every discussion about a ballpark in players there is 10 discussions with outrageous claims & deals offered (both sides).

Besides there have been ballparks set before & they get blown away & the process goes back in circles again.
Of course. Such is the nature of trade threads.

There are many fans with many differing opinions. If some are right, I don't see Luongo traded and the negotiations are done with.

If others are right and Gillis is willing to move for a lesser futures package, then we have something to talk about with them.


Also, the longer the CBA takes to be finalized the more the dynamic of the trade talk changes.

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12-11-2012, 03:50 PM
  #889
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Indeed, although the price you listed is a lot but I could see Burke giving up a lot. What I can't see Burke doing is giving up pieces that improve the Canucks' roster to the degree many of their fans are looking for because, simply put, those pieces on the Leafs are far too crucial and not worth moving in this case.
I agree. I can't see Brian Burke giving up pieces that are close to being NHL ready like Nazem Kadri.

I could, however, see him sending Tyler Bozak as the centre piece with two pieces attached to him. I think Bozak, Matt Finn, Joe Colborne, and a second round pick is fair value.

In that package the Canucks get an NHLer in Tyler Bozak that is solid defensively and is no slouch offensively either. He's perfect for their third line. Matt Finn is a great talent and, IMO, will eventually become a top four d-man in the NHL. He has the vision, hockey IQ, and physical presence to progress through the professional ranks.

Joe Colborne is a project but one that a lot of teams would like to nurture on their minor league teams.

So that's an NHLer, a great defensive prospect and a good forward prospect in Joe Colborne plus a pick that will be like a late first.

That's a solid return for Roberto and his contract, IMO.

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12-11-2012, 04:06 PM
  #890
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Oh and y2k I see you're avoiding finding me an example of a mid-30s player on a decade long contract returning significant pieces. Not surprising though, because there isn't such an example.
Has someone meeting that criteria ever been traded?

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12-11-2012, 04:09 PM
  #891
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Well that's the position I've maintained since the summer. Clearly things are changing, and if there's no season at all then Lupul holds very little value.
I really cannot see the Leafs getting rid of Lupol right now. Him and Kessel just work too well together. From Lupol's perspective, he's been traded 4 times in the last 5-6 years. Toronto finally seems like a solid fit for him. I'd expect Toronto to resign Lupol for 4 years and 4-5 million.

Toronto will continue to try and build a team around Kessel. They aren't about to let his best linemate so far walk.

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12-11-2012, 04:17 PM
  #892
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Has someone meeting that criteria ever been traded?
To answer both questions. Calagry received some significant offers for Iginla but opted not to trade him. Likewise, the rumored Sundin deal between Toronto and Montreal was Grabovski, Higgins and a 1st. May have been a bit more. Supposedly, Gainey offered Plekanec and Subban for Lecavalier and let's not forget the Gomez deal.

Most of those never went through but did harbor credible sources to backup the claim. Grabovski ended up being thrown to the Leafs for Sundin's negotiation rights.

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12-11-2012, 04:20 PM
  #893
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I tried to ask this last night and all I got was that there is a greater weakness in the top six on the right wing and this is why the Canucks didn't win a stanley cup. I've been trying to find out why a team wouldnt want two great goaltenders the whole time.

To no avail.
Do you guys just keep forgetting Luongo wants a trade or are you in denial ? It's getting rediculous.

"Oh we will just keep the guy who doesn't want to be here and it won't be a distraction when the media asks our guys every night what is going on with Luongo"

Guess what you would be better off getting nothing back and moving him than keeping him with the media circus that would be following your team around. Not to mention his cap space would be better used in other positions.

Some of you guys have your head in the sand acting like if you keep ignoring these issues they will go away. This a far bigger reason why you will not get full value for him than his contract.

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12-11-2012, 04:21 PM
  #894
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To answer both questions. Calagry received some significant offers for Iginla but opted not to trade him. Likewise, the rumored Sundin deal between Toronto and Montreal was Grabovski, Higgins and a 1st. May have been a bit more. Supposedly, Gainey offered Plekanec and Subban for Lecavalier and let's not forget the Gomez deal.

Most of those never went through but did harbor credible sources to backup the claim. Grabovski ended up being thrown to the Leafs for Sundin's negotiation rights.
But Iginla / Sundin weren't signed for another decade. And there certainly weren't questions about whether they could decline and how that decline could screw a team over.

Regardless, what do you think about: Bozak, Finn, Colborne + 2nd for Roberto?

I believe that's fair, IMO.

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12-11-2012, 04:29 PM
  #895
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But Iginla / Sundin weren't signed for another decade. And there certainly weren't questions about whether they could decline and how that decline could screw a team over.

Regardless, what do you think about: Bozak, Finn, Colborne + 2nd for Roberto?

I believe that's fair, IMO.
Aye, but goaltenders have a greater shelf life than wingers. That said, Hossa and Kovalchuk would still command significant assets despite their decade contracts and age.

I'm rather meh on it to be frank. Not necessarily a bad deal but not one I'm all too keen on either. Drop the pick, swap Bozak with Kadri and I'd be more interested. Or if you want to send salary, work in Connolly.

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12-11-2012, 04:36 PM
  #896
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And you have described us to a tee. A fringe playoff team with Luongo. Not a contender. That's the same reason it doesn't make sense to deal our 1st plus other top young pieces. I have agreed on a couple of proposals, but once they get extreme, i'm out.
Oh I can understand that . There is no since going threw a rebuild to rush at the end of it . Who wants to be a fringe playoff team after suffering threw a rebuild ? Wait a year or 2 more to complete the rebuild and be a contender for a many years . If the owners get what they want in the new CBA it will be much easier for teams to resign their own players . They can offer 7 year deals while other teams can only offer 5 making it great for competing long term after a rebuild

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12-11-2012, 04:37 PM
  #897
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Aye, but goaltenders have a greater shelf life than wingers. That said, Hossa and Kovalchuk would still command significant assets despite their decade contracts and age.

I'm rather meh on it to be frank. Not necessarily a bad deal but not one I'm all too keen on either. Drop the pick, swap Bozak with Kadri and I'd be more interested. Or if you want to send salary, work in Connolly.
I understand where you're coming from in terms of wanting Nazem instead of Tyler Bozak. However, I just can't see Brian Burke giving up Kadri, especially now that he's showing that he can play at both ends of the ice while putting up great numbers in the AHL.

I think that Kadri could replace Bozak on the Leafs' roster if that deal went down. I could also see Tyler being signed to an extension at a reasonable rate before the deal to make it more enticing for Mike Gillis.

That's realistic IMO.

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12-11-2012, 04:44 PM
  #898
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Do you guys just keep forgetting Luongo wants a trade or are you in denial ? It's getting rediculous.

"Oh we will just keep the guy who doesn't want to be here and it won't be a distraction when the media asks our guys every night what is going on with Luongo"

Guess what you would be better off getting nothing back and moving him than keeping him with the media circus that would be following your team around. Not to mention his cap space would be better used in other positions.

Some of you guys have your head in the sand acting like if you keep ignoring these issues they will go away. This a far bigger reason why you will not get full value for him than his contract.
Luongo denies trade demand.

We had a media circus last season and still hoisted a second President's Trophy. Hell, the city has the mentality of "Cup or you suck!" The goaltending controversy was a story TSN and Sportsnet over-hyped for rating and little else. Neither Luongo, Schneider or the team paid any attention.

For cap space, I implore you to show us what we could spend 5.3m on. The UFA market, if there is a season, is abysmal. Should the lockout last the duration, unless the cap declines significantly, we have more than enough to keep our roster intact. Now if we nab Perry, Lupul, Iginla or Jagr off free agency, then we'll consider moving Lu for scraps.

Your reasons are fabrication with little basis excluding a disgruntled media. Is the media to blame for Toronto's failure last year? I sincerely doubt it. You have essentially said the same for us going forward. Both are over-hyped nonsense akin players having more value because of a cup ring.

btw, ridiculous is spelt with an i. Sorry, just a horrible pet peeve of mine.

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12-11-2012, 04:48 PM
  #899
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I understand where you're coming from in terms of wanting Nazem instead of Tyler Bozak. However, I just can't see Brian Burke giving up Kadri, especially now that he's showing that he can play at both ends of the ice while putting up great numbers in the AHL.

I think that Kadri could replace Bozak on the Leafs' roster if that deal went down. I could also see Tyler being signed to an extension at a reasonable rate before the deal to make it more enticing for Mike Gillis.

That's realistic IMO.
Fair enough, and you could be correct. Personally, I see Kadri on his way out possibly due to his own frustrations not cracking the roster. One of the reasons I like him is despite being weak defensively, he is a rare versatile playmaker. He could very well slot with Kesler if he surpassed expectations.

Suppose we'll see but I wager one of them is likely included in any potential deal. Depends if Burke wants to break up the number one line.

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12-11-2012, 04:50 PM
  #900
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Do you guys just keep forgetting Luongo wants a trade or are you in denial ? It's getting rediculous.

"Oh we will just keep the guy who doesn't want to be here and it won't be a distraction when the media asks our guys every night what is going on with Luongo"

Guess what you would be better off getting nothing back and moving him than keeping him with the media circus that would be following your team around. Not to mention his cap space would be better used in other positions.

Some of you guys have your head in the sand acting like if you keep ignoring these issues they will go away. This a far bigger reason why you will not get full value for him than his contract.
Do you guys keep forgetting Luongo has said he is fine with coming back to Vancouver until a deal is worked out? Do you guys keep forgetting Luongo has stated he wants to do whats best for the franchise? If its best for the Franchise to hold on to him until we get value & he is ok coming back to a team where he has great friends, a city he loves & a team that is good why wouldn't he come back? Oh yes I forgot its your hypotheticals that you guys ALWAYS add!


scenario I've seen way too many times in these threads:

Canuck fan: "Oh Luongo is ok with ...blah blah"
Leaf fan: "That might be the case but what if ...blah blah"

Bold is garbage.

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