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To everyone who doesn't feel like reading the last 8 pages. A summary:
At the beginning of the thread, an Avs fan stated they would maybe move RoR for a top pairing dman. Toronto comes along and offers Gardiner, a first year player who led all rookie dmen and led in hits, had 30 points with obvious top pairing potential, and then that same Avs fan said no? Was Shea Webber the expected return or something? Then there was just a couple fans who were just being disrespectful with responces and what not. Arguments ensued back and forth for a long time with no other really offers being made except for the last two or so pages.
Now, my analysis of Ryan O'Rielly:
I think that the Avs, while have a great talent in RoR, are overating him quite a bit.
a) He is unsigned.
b) He has only had one good season. Its not like he has been a consistant producer all his career.
c) His choice to take a 2 year contract is a potential problem whether anyone wants to admit it or not. You don't see any other unsigned RFA's signing multiyear deals in other leagues just because a contract wasnt hammered out before the lockout.
One fan offered Edler (Which I thought was ridiculous) and then it was replied with "Only if he is resigned." I'm sorry, but RoR, who by all means had a great season, is not worth a resigned top pairing, reliable and consistant dman like Edler. You know what youre getting with Edler. RoR has only had one good season. The rest were 26 points. Yes he is young, but until he puts up at least another season as good or better than the last, he will not command that kind of return from another team.
From the Oilers, while my fellow fans may not like it, I would offer:
Gagner + 1st Round Selection on 2012
for
Ryan O'Rielly + Joey Hishon + 4th Round Pick in 2012
That deal is contigent on there being no NHL season played this year.
I only say yes to this deal because you screwed up the years and ended up making it Gagner+Yakupov for Radar, Hishon, and... a 5'10" 2 way center prospect
change the years to 2013 and it's not close, especially if we use the same lottery system as last time (ie Edmonton ends up with a late first)
There is a pretty big difference, considering O'Reilly did most of his developing in the NHL, while Gardiner took the college-AHL route.
Jake Gardiner played his full first year in professional hockey in the NHL. He played all of 10 games in the AHL the year before. Where do you get your information from?
If Avs management is pissed off, they will give in and sign a contract he likes ,let him play for a few months and than all of a sudden ship him out and he will wonder what just happened to him.
They won't sell low...
This...a thousand times this. If anyone thinks the Avs are in 'a pickle', this is exactly what would happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Knight
This is one guy I'd move Nazem Kadri in a deal for. I know Toronto would have to add more. What else? I don't know.
Hope that also comes with a pants-down spanking!
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Podium
Again i said "IF" there is no quote that gives his specific reason and thats a real possibility. The fact that your getting so defensive probably means its a real fear There are likely 3 reasons why he signed 2 years:
To circumvent the KHL's lockout addition limit
Leverage in contract negotiations
To force a trade
If and only if its the latter, which is a real possibility, then his value takes a huge hit.
See above. The Avs can easily match. There is no issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015
I dunno, the fact you're so defensive about Gardiner's value must mean he isn't worth it and people need convincing.
I'd love to see the thread where Avs fans are actually ASKING for Gardiner. (or ANY leafs at all?? We're happy with our team, sure we've got holes but they'll be addressed in due time...there's no rush.)
Last edited by Leaf Rocket: 12-09-2012 at 09:01 AM.
Reason: QDP
I think that the Avs, while have a great talent in RoR, are overating him quite a bit.
a) He is unsigned.
b) He has only had one good season. Its not like he has been a consistant producer all his career.
c) His choice to take a 2 year contract is a potential problem whether anyone wants to admit it or not. You don't see any other unsigned RFA's signing multiyear deals in other leagues just because a contract wasnt hammered out before the lockout.
My analysis of your analysis.
He has had three good seasons in the NHL. He was a third line defensive center as an 18-20 year old and as a 20-21 year old he started getting a more offensive role. At the age of 21 he was top 30 in center scoring, led the league in takeaways, is very good in the faceoff circle and was 14th in Selke voting. He deserved more votes for that one, but it's one of those awards where you have to pay your dues for lots of years to get votes. He'll be a Selke finalist soon enough.
The contract situation isn't as dramatic as you want to believe. The reason a contract wasn't "hammered out before the lockout" was because both parties agreed to wait until a new CBA was in place over a month before the CBA expired. It's not like they negotiated feverishly and ran out of time. They wanted to see what the new CBA would look like.
As much as Avs fans want to play the innocent "we just want to keep our players and you guys are bothering us" card the fact is as a previous poster mentioned: this is a fantasy trade talk forum. You are not Sherman we are not Burke. This forum is for legit rumours or to discuss perceived value.
Despite claims of Avs fans saying "no thank you", that didn't happen with the majority. Many started with the sarcastic comments and act like RoR is in another league of value compared to Gardiner. I agree he may hold a bit more value but not something a little + wouldn't even out.
Many are saying Gardiner is overrated yet some Avs stated how they only want to trade him for OEL, McDonagh and MAYBE Subban. Then one poster said they'd even be disappointed if ROR was traded for Crosby.
Bottom line, if your not interested in Gardiner, fine, but don't act like te value is not even close then complain we overrate our players and lowball Avs fans in deals and act innocent on top of it to boot.
Ps: "The" Bozak had 47 points last year. RoR had 55. Don't try to tell me Gardiner and Bozak isn't fair value. The Bozak and a 2nd joke is stale, get some new material boys.
In my opinion, Avs trading O'Reilly for Gardiner plus small plus would make them a worse team today and most likely tomorrow.
That doesn't mean Gardiner is a bad player. He has good offensive skill and skating and a very manly chin. I'd probably want to see how he does in a system that doesn't play run and gun losing hockey before trading anything significant for him, but I think there is a good chance he's a legit top four PMD.
While the current Avs d-core is a merry bunch of misfits, they also have Barrie, Elliott and Siemens in the pipeline. I wouldn't be surprised if Barrie makes the jump this year and he has excelled as a PMD at every stage of his career. I think Avs will be fine for the time being.
Because it is always the same story. A Leafs fan wants one of our 3 centers. Usually offers up nothing of real value(not in this trade but then again you could argue if Gardiner fits a need) to the Avs. The Avs point that out. Leafs fans get mad jump in and bash our players into oblivion. Avs fans get mad jump in and do the same and we have a nice pissing contest.
Actually far from it. As a Leafs fan, I'm saying you'd be lucky to get Gardiner for Ryan O'Reilly, and we are the ones not interested in that trade, let alone packaging more assets to get him. Stop acting like your 3 centermen are so valuable that we're salivating to get any of them. We're not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoemAvs
I would never ever trade ROR for Gardiner. In my mind they do not have the same value. Why? Because I tend to take proven players over potential. ROR is younger and has been amazing.
He made the team out of camp as a 2nd rounder and continues to get better and better every year. He is probably our best defensive player right now. His season was close to Selke worthy.
Proven? One 18 goal 55 point season plus whatever he managed to accomplish defensively is about as Selke worthy as Gardiner was Norris worthy. Not even close. Keep ROR, but know that we don't even want him that much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoemAvs
Did Gardiner have a great season last year? You bet he did. Could he turn out to be a great player`? Yes he could. Is his game as far along as RORs? No. I want to see what he can do under Carlyles style next year first and he really is not that good defensively right now from what I have seen. That is expected from a defenseman his age but all in all he is just not as far as ROR is. If both repeat there 2011/2012 output and Gardiner shows major strides defensively and adds a few points, than we can talk.
Don't even talk like ROR's game is so ****ing advanced. He had one 18 goal scoring season to go with his two way game. Big whoop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoemAvs
You might not realize that but ROR was arguably our top player last year (with Landeskog). You should not expect any fanbase to be happy if you offer up your great but still unproven rookie for another teams best players and state that is fair value. Even if that is true that fanbase won't like it...
Being one of the best Avs players doesn't mean very much these days.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoemAvs
I just wish that Avs and Leafs talk is banned from Trade and Transactions because it always ends bad and to be honest, there are no trades to be made between those teams. We are just bad trading partners.
Avs fans seem to be of the belief that their current crop of centermen are worth more than they actually are. They're nice players and you can keep them. Just don't come into a chat thinking they're somehow completely superior to what another franchise has.
It's always the SAME story. Leafs fans get P-Oed because Avs fans don't want to take their 'decent package' and begin to try and DUMP on the player WE DON'T WANT TO TRADE in the first place!!!! [This thread was NOT started by an Avs fan]
Actually I take objection to the idea that the Avs fans are thumbing their noses at players they'd be lucky to acquire for their players. I wouldn't be happy to see Gardiner move for ROR at all. Nor do I want him in some alternate proposal.
Actually far from it. As a Leafs fan, I'm saying you'd be lucky to get Gardiner for Ryan O'Reilly, and we are the ones not interested in that trade, let alone packaging more assets to get him. Stop acting like your 3 centermen are so valuable that we're salivating to get any of them. We're not.
Do you speak for the whole Leafs fanbase? You act like you are, yet despite you guys apparently not being interested in O'Reilly for Gardiner, several Leaf fans have proposed it. Perhaps you meant YOU are not interested in it. Good, you don't want our centermen. Tell the rest of your fellow Leaf fans this please, since a lot seem to disagree judging from the amount of threads/posts from them about it.
Quote:
Proven? One 18 goal 55 point season plus whatever he managed to accomplish defensively is about as Selke worthy as Gardiner was Norris worthy. Not even close. Keep ROR, but know that we don't even want him that much.
Haha ok buddy. We will keep ROR then. Just tell the rest of your Leaf fans, who apparently don't even want him anyways, to stop asking for him.
Quote:
Don't even talk like ROR's game is so ****ing advanced. He had one 18 goal scoring season to go with his two way game. Big whoop.
Oh...the arrogance. You really are not making yourself any friends with your attitude. Its still a lot more impressive than Gardiner's 30 point season though. Big whoop that is.
Quote:
Being one of the best Avs players doesn't mean very much these days.
Wow You have issues. It still means a lot more than being good on the Leafs though. At least we have actually made the playoffs in recent memory. Might not want to take jabs at other teams buddy, when your a fan of the Toronto Maple Leafs.
Quote:
Avs fans seem to be of the belief that their current crop of centermen are worth more than they actually are. They're nice players and you can keep them. Just don't come into a chat thinking they're somehow completely superior to what another franchise has.
Ok. We will keep our centermen, who we apparently overvalue. Thanks for giving us permission to keep them. And yeah, if you want to talk about superiority, they actually far superior to what you have. Thanks anyways.
Actually I take objection to the idea that the Avs fans are thumbing their noses at players they'd be lucky to acquire for their players. I wouldn't be happy to see Gardiner move for ROR at all. Nor do I want him in some alternate proposal.
Merely you're opinion. Stop acting like its a fact. You think we would be lucky to get Gardiner for O'Reilly? Fine. That's you're opinion. Me, and the rest of the Avs fanbase, have a much different opinion. We would not be happy to see ROR move for Gardiner at all. Nor do we want to see him in some alternate proposal.
Actually far from it. As a Leafs fan, I'm saying you'd be lucky to get Gardiner for Ryan O'Reilly, and we are the ones not interested in that trade, let alone packaging more assets to get him. Stop acting like your 3 centermen are so valuable that we're salivating to get any of them. We're not.
Proven? One 18 goal 55 point season plus whatever he managed to accomplish defensively is about as Selke worthy as Gardiner was Norris worthy. Not even close. Keep ROR, but know that we don't even want him that much.
Don't even talk like ROR's game is so ****ing advanced. He had one 18 goal scoring season to go with his two way game. Big whoop.
Being one of the best Avs players doesn't mean very much these days.
Avs fans seem to be of the belief that their current crop of centermen are worth more than they actually are. They're nice players and you can keep them. Just don't come into a chat thinking they're somehow completely superior to what another franchise has.
I sincerely hope the bolder part is a joke. If its not
But what do we know? Lets ask the NHL GMs and Analyst who vote on these and watch every game.
O'Reilly finished 15th in Selke voting, including a 2nd place vote and a few 3rd place votes. Gardiner didn't get one vote for Norris.
Relax, lets take a deep breath, a step back and start making some proposals again. It seems like the colorado boys arent intrested in gardiner, which is not a crime, they just want a d whos more experienced and further along in his development(altough some insults towards gardiner was unneciseary).
Taking my own advice I would offer something for RoR(would love to have him as 2c on the Ducks) but Im not sure how much Id be willing to give up. Avs fans, is there something that might intrest you?
I sure as hell hope they don't let him walk for nothing. What about Bozak and 2nd for O'Reilly?
The Leafs would probably think about it if the Avs added Stastny
Quote:
Originally Posted by DisneyDucky
Relax, lets take a deep breath, a step back and start making some proposals again. It seems like the colorado boys arent intrested in gardiner, which is not a crime, they just want a d whos more experienced and further along in his development(altough some insults towards gardiner was unneciseary).
Taking my own advice I would offer something for RoR(would love to have him as 2c on the Ducks) but Im not sure how much Id be willing to give up. Avs fans, is there something that might intrest you?
Reading over the thread anything short of a legit top pairing dman gets torn apart
The Leafs would probably think about it if the Avs added Stastny
Reading over the thread anything short of a legit top pairing dman gets torn apart
Look's like your finally getting it. We only want to move O'Reilly for someone that can play top pairing minutes with Johnson. Edler, Vlasic, M. Staal are all defesemen we will think about moving O'Reilly for. Now we don't think we're going to get Shea Weber or McDonagh straight up for O'Reilly so you can drop it.
Leaf fans vs Col Fans, just as entertaining as ever.
On to the topic:
If O'Reilly for some reason is moved, then i would want Washington trying to trade for him, one of the only and best options for legit 2 line center for the future. Moving Alzner, Johansson or Forsberg and adding to it, would be something i could see happening.
The only thing I would add, Avs fans say they don't want/need Gardiner, rather a top 2 proven d.
I am just wondering what top pairing d do you realistically feel you can actually get for a great 2nd line centre? I really like O'Reilly, but if your team had a young proven #1 D, would YOU trade him for a 2nd line centre?
I honestly don't think you can get that return. In any case, Gardiner and O'Reilly value's are similar but if AVs don't feel he fills they're needs then so be it.
The only thing I would add, Avs fans say they don't want/need Gardiner, rather a top 2 proven d.
I am just wondering what top pairing d do you realistically feel you can actually get for a great 2nd line centre? I really like O'Reilly, but if your team had a young proven #1 D, would YOU trade him for a 2nd line centre?
I honestly don't think you can get that return. In any case, Gardiner and O'Reilly value's are similar but if Avs don't feel he fills their needs then so be it.
Since the Chris Drury situation is vaguely similar to this one, his return:
Drury and Stephane Yelle returns Derek Morris, Dean McAmmond and Jeff Shantz. Since McAmmond and Shantz' net worth was less than worthless you have to ask yourself: Which player in the NHL today is comparable to Morris in 2002? That's what O'Reilly could be fetching.
__________________ “It’s embarrassing. I’m embarrassed to be here right now. It’s not even funny. And it’s just embarrassing, the way we, you know, the energy we have in the room and the way we approach practices and the way we approach this game. It’s not how you’re going to win any games in this league." - Jean-Sebastien Giguere, April 8 2013
Leaf fans vs Col Fans, just as entertaining as ever.
On to the topic:
If O'Reilly for some reason is moved, then i would want Washington trying to trade for him, one of the only and best options for legit 2 line center for the future. Moving Alzner, Johansson or Forsberg and adding to it, would be something i could see happening.
I have to say, yesterday when I was in involved in this thread it got me pretty pissed off, and somewhat heated. But thinking back at it now, its actually been pretty funny and interesting.
I almost wish the Leafs and Avs played each other more then once or twice a season, because between the 15000 Stastny to the Leafs proposals and the occasional Duchene Leafs thread and now this Oreilly thread, I think theres a bit of a strong dislike between fanbases right now. Would create some heated games at least between fan bases.
Anyways back to Oreilly, to the guy who quoted what I wanted for Oreilly and said I was overvaluing him, great job once again putting words into my mouth... I didnt say I would only move ROR one for one with any of them, obviously we would have to add something to ROR to get McDonagh, or Myers or OEL, or Subban. The only Dman that I mentioned earlier that I feel a 1 for 1 swap would be fair was Marc Staal.
Anyways, lets let Leafs fans rule this thread once again, and continue on with there Gardiner+ crap, might aswell change the thread title to Value of: Oreilly to the Leafs...
edler is in an interesting situation, unsigned I agree with the many Avs fans that have said that with UFA uncertainty he is not worth ROR which I completely understand. But a signed Edler is worth more than ROR, Edler is much more proven than O'Reilly and in turn the difference is more than a second round pick. I know that I am biased (especially with Edler as my pic) but I can't see Gillis trading a signed Edler for ROR and a small +. Also we don't paticlularily have the need because either we move Kesler to wing, or O'Reilly becomes our 3rd line centre so I don't know why Canucks fans had interest in the first place.
as an aside- this was a great thread to read through, lots of laughs. Some people are incredibly witty with their sarcasm others are just lashing out though
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Last edited by live playoff hockey: 12-09-2012 at 08:38 AM.
Okay then. I have cleared this place to discuss what happens with Ryan O'Reilly. As well possibly figure out what's his value for all fan-bases during these lockout time. Was kind enough of just do a simple delete rather than infract, if there are bashing of posters, opinions and fan-bases. It will be an auto Threadban and infraction.
There are likely 3 reasons why he signed 2 years:
others are just lashing out though
