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Players Starting to Ask Uncomfortable Questions of NHLPA Leadership

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Old
12-09-2012, 08:36 AM
  #126
ScottyBowman
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Originally Posted by grog View Post
Why don't you tell them what they should get paid, go ahead, tell us all what they should make, it's not as though they earned what they did under some ownership controlled anything but free market over the past few yea...o wait.

Ill tell you what, if you don't like what they get paid, don't watch, because no matter how you slice it, the reason the cap went up is more people paid more money to watch those players that so many of you seem to have a hate on for. JUST STOP WATCHING, those players don't owe you a damn thing, or [mod] accept that everyone always wants as much as they can get and for better or worse this negotiation is just part of a process.
Right on. I can tell political agendas have creeped in to these hockey threads. Its unfortunate a percentage of this country has fallen into the whole job creators and industrialists can do no wrong crap. All of a sudden the owner [mod: supporters] have started worrying about the 4th liner. Laughable at best.


Last edited by Fugu: 12-09-2012 at 12:34 PM. Reason: ...
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12-09-2012, 08:37 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Just heard an interesting interview with Howard Bloom (Sports Business News). He was questioning why the NHLPA is so stuck on contract length beyond five years term, since given that only 12% of their membership is signed to deals beyond that length, it seems the balance of the league are being held out to protect only those most privileged few.

His view is that as many as 6 teams are on the brink of folding if no season is played this year, and he names them. Claims contraction is more likely to come versus relocation, followed eventually by the issuance of expansion franchises to QC & GTA.

https://soundcloud.com/thecharlesadl...est-on-the-nhl

12 minutes in length; the interview with Bloom begins at roughly the 1 minute mark. Click the play button located at the top left of the page - beside the headline. It gets really interesting just past the 10 minute mark.
That is quite possibly the biggest load of ******** I've ever heard. I can most assuredly tell you Tampa Bay isn't going to fold, contract, or relocate. Not now and not in the foreseeable future. That's clearly just an anti southern hockey biast moron speaking out of his ass. Which in turn discredits everything else the blowhard had to say.

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Old
12-09-2012, 09:22 AM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
That is quite possibly the biggest load of ******** I've ever heard. I can most assuredly tell you Tampa Bay isn't going to fold, contract, or relocate. Not now and not in the foreseeable future. That's clearly just an anti southern hockey biast moron speaking out of his ass. Which in turn discredits everything else the blowhard had to say.
So you think he gets his information out of nowhere???

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12-09-2012, 09:41 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
That is quite possibly the biggest load of ******** I've ever heard. I can most assuredly tell you Tampa Bay isn't going to fold, contract, or relocate. Not now and not in the foreseeable future. That's clearly just an anti southern hockey biast moron speaking out of his ass. Which in turn discredits everything else the blowhard had to say.
Par for the course, basically.

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Originally Posted by Jaffray15 View Post
So you think he gets his information out of nowhere???
Well, why on earth would someone with CTV have an interest in catering to his local audience anyway? It's not like he's been beating the relocation drum for years or anything...

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12-09-2012, 09:51 AM
  #130
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So you think he gets his information out of nowhere???
So where did he get it from? He did a study, ok fine. What was his methodology? What numbers did he use? Forbes? Secret access to Jeff Vinik's bank records? Has he released a published report on this with some more detailed info? Put it in a newspaper? He says "I know you can blame Gary Bettman for the two Florida teams". Since when? Bettman wasn't responsible for either team being placed in Florida. If he can't even get that basic fact correct, why should I trust him when he says both teams in Florida are gone with a full season lockout?

And the host that says that sports writers in Florida are more interested in greyhound racing than hockey, and he knows because he lived here? That's a joke. Nothing more than pandering to the anti-southern crowd.

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12-09-2012, 10:03 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Have you ever acknowledged, that even with the radical demands offered by the owners, they still aren't crafting an offer that will change the fundamental problems with the NHL's economics?

Everything about this CBA leads me to believe we're going to be sitting here watching the Proskauer Rose team "Let's Reset the Wages to The Lowest Common Denominator" whenever the CBA expires.
For the love of pete you're not going to honestly put on a straight face and say the PA's offers have addressed those issues?

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12-09-2012, 10:09 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Have you ever acknowledged, that even with the radical demands offered by the owners, they still aren't crafting an offer that will change the fundamental problems with the NHL's economics?

Everything about this CBA leads me to believe we're going to be sitting here watching the Proskauer Rose team "Let's Reset the Wages to The Lowest Common Denominator" whenever the CBA expires.
Agree with this- back at the same table, in the same room with probably the same lawyers (minus Fehr and Bettman one hopes) watching the same worn out fiasco at the end of the next CBA, if there is one.

At what point does this sorry excuse for a league management team recognize that not all of their 30 franchises will make money, that some will never make money and that continually lowering the cost of player salaries by formal terms in a CBA (essentially to protect themselves from each other) is not the ultimate answer to this issue. I mean, really, when an inordinate percentage of "league" profit is realized by only 10% of the franchises, wouldn't one try to figure out how to adjust that? That perhaps the ultimate answer is to take responsibility for poor decisions on franchise locations, number of franchises and revenue sharing.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but is there one thing in any of the NHL proposals (or PA counter proposals) that advantages the players over the past CBA terms, besides maybe getting a single room on road trips?

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12-09-2012, 10:11 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Jaffray15 View Post
So you think he gets his information out of nowhere???
He gets his info from the same sources who guaranteed the season would be started by now. ie, sources who tell him what he wants to hear.

Middle-of-the-road teams like Carolina, Tampa and Nashville are not going to fold or relocate. That's total nonsense.

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Old
12-09-2012, 10:23 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
That is quite possibly the biggest load of ******** I've ever heard. I can most assuredly tell you Tampa Bay isn't going to fold, contract, or relocate. Not now and not in the foreseeable future. That's clearly just an anti southern hockey biast moron speaking out of his ass. Which in turn discredits everything else the blowhard had to say.
Actually, you discredited nothing but rather chose to rely upon a strawman argument instead.

Some people clearly don't want to admit that this entire lockout is due the franchises that are currently in financial peril. The lockout is all about providing financial relief to 6 or so teams that will eventually fold otherwise because they are located in markets where not enough demand exists to financially carry the franchises on their own, and that is after already receiving substantive welfare annual payments in most cases. Choose to plug your ears and ignore the outside world all you wish but it is still there regardless.

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Old
12-09-2012, 10:31 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Have you ever acknowledged, that even with the radical demands offered by the owners, they still aren't crafting an offer that will change the fundamental problems with the NHL's economics?

Everything about this CBA leads me to believe we're going to be sitting here watching the Proskauer Rose team "Let's Reset the Wages to The Lowest Common Denominator" whenever the CBA expires.
Absolutely I have. However the CBA that would fix things would never ever be approved by the players - as it means even more coming from them (using some formula of the median to determine HRR). Neither do I believe the RS required would ever be approved by the league.

So instead of going one way or the other to have a healthy league, the league tries to do a hybrid of both at the same time. Can it work? Yes... assuming that it's not just the big teams driving growth, but the NHL as a whole (we saw this with NHL central revenues seeing a lot of growth). Do I honestly think it will work? I do not know. The math looks grim when you look at the cap numbers. However if there's that much revenue driving the cap, then it's not all coming from 5-6 teams.

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12-09-2012, 10:38 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Middle-of-the-road teams like Carolina, Tampa and Nashville are not going to fold or relocate. That's total nonsense.
True middle-of-the-road teams have sufficient enough demand for tickets to financially carry their franchises relative to the league mean. They don't need to rely upon embarrassingly cheap ticket programs such as this one (that covers a full 1/4 of the upper tier) just to get the casual Joe into the building...

http://hurricanes.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=73778

Those tickets are that cheap in an attempt to uncover the price-point at which demand exists. Tickets are priced according to demand.

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12-09-2012, 10:52 AM
  #137
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Neither side has brought up expenses, out side the players %.

It is a non issue. OK well it may be your issue but the NHL nor the NHLPA seem to care about it.
Actually the NHL originally did when they asked for changes to HRR for greater deductions of certain costs the teams were incurring.

They backed off that request a while ago in the negotiations though.

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12-09-2012, 11:05 AM
  #138
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Why do posters think that the CBA is where you fix a failing franchise? The CBA gives you a set operating cost, if you mismanage the income of the business or set up in a market that will not support the business, it is not the responsibility of the employees to ensure viability of the business. Its ridiculous to think the players need any part in fixing the problem of bad owners, bad markets or poor team management. The NHL has to fix their failing team problem internally and not hang their hats on the band-aid fix that would come with a new CBA. They started the wage snafu and they could fix it themselves.

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Old
12-09-2012, 11:17 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
True middle-of-the-road teams have sufficient enough demand for tickets to financially carry their franchises relative to the league mean. They don't need to rely upon embarrassingly cheap ticket programs such as this one (that covers a full 1/4 of the upper tier) just to get the casual Joe into the building...

http://hurricanes.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=73778

Those tickets are that cheap in an attempt to uncover the price-point at which demand exists. Tickets are priced according to demand.
I see you're also including the Detroit Red Wings as a embarrasingly cheap ticket team.... one that isn't a middle of the road team because of these ticket prices....

http://redwings.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=78937

same cheap ticket price, look at both links for a 10/12 game plan.

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Last edited by Killion: 12-09-2012 at 11:55 AM. Reason: ya, lets not turn up the heat;
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Old
12-09-2012, 11:24 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by predfan98 View Post
I see you're also including the Detroit Red Wings as a embarrasingly cheap ticket team.... one that isn't a middle of the road team because of these ticket prices....

http://redwings.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=78937

same cheap ticket price, look at both links for a 10/12 game plan.
I believe your right, the lockout isn't just about the bottom feeder teams it's about the 20+ teams that are boarderlining red or black.


Last edited by Killion: 12-09-2012 at 11:55 AM.
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Old
12-09-2012, 11:34 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Guillaume Latendresse said yesterday that he doesn't understand why 5 years limit on players' contract is an issue for the Union, saying guys that sign 5 years contracts are a rarity.

I cannot understand why owners are pushing for this. As they have said on Hockey Central umpteen times, do the Penguins only want Crosby wrapped up for five years?

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Old
12-09-2012, 11:36 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Lacaar View Post
For the love of pete you're not going to honestly put on a straight face and say the PA's offers have addressed those issues?
The owners made the decision to lockout the players to "fix" the league's economics

And then presented an offer that does no such thing.

Fool me once, Shame on you

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12-09-2012, 11:42 AM
  #143
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Absolutely I have. However the CBA that would fix things would never ever be approved by the players - as it means even more coming from them (using some formula of the median to determine HRR). Neither do I believe the RS required would ever be approved by the league.

So instead of going one way or the other to have a healthy league, the league tries to do a hybrid of both at the same time. Can it work? Yes... assuming that it's not just the big teams driving growth, but the NHL as a whole (we saw this with NHL central revenues seeing a lot of growth). Do I honestly think it will work? I do not know. The math looks grim when you look at the cap numbers. However if there's that much revenue driving the cap, then it's not all coming from 5-6 teams.

Instead of developing a plan for partnership, where the rich teams and the PA shares fairly equally in the cost of fixing the NHL... the owners are demanding the PA does all the sacrifice.

Why? Because the greed at the ownership table will not permit Ilitch and co to do real sharing with some billionaire somewhere else.

But what they can all agree on is that Using the Lowest Common denominator is good for All NHL owners.

So they go with the easy fix.

The fix that isn't even a fix.

The fix that assures us we'll be back here in 7-10 years.

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12-09-2012, 11:44 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Just heard an interesting interview with Howard Bloom (Sports Business News). He was questioning why the NHLPA is so stuck on contract length beyond five years term, since given that only 12% of their membership is signed to deals beyond that length, it seems the balance of the league are being held out to protect only those most privileged few.

His view is that as many as 6 teams are on the brink of folding if no season is played this year, and he names them. Claims contraction is more likely to come versus relocation, followed eventually by the issuance of expansion franchises to QC & GTA.

https://soundcloud.com/thecharlesadl...est-on-the-nhl

12 minutes in length; the interview with Bloom begins at roughly the 1 minute mark. Click the play button located at the top left of the page - beside the headline. It gets really interesting just past the 10 minute mark.
This guy really hates Fehr. Wow
He makes a lot of interesting points, but I think he is way overstating his case. Essentially, he is saying the players are uneducated rednecks who barely have a high school education and Donald Fehr is the whole problem. Oh, and the Canadian media are also uneducated, unsophisticated mouth breathers who can no more understand the complexities of economics than they can the complexities of performing brain surgery.

As far as six teams going under? Pure hyperbole. I believe this is a part of Bloom's hate for Fehr. Kill six teams and roughly 150 + players' jobs. In fact after saying Nashville will probably go under, he then later says they won't go under but will be irreparably harmed.

I can't speak for all of the ownership groups, but I do know one of the groups on his list well, and they have no intention of folding.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottyBowman View Post
If they are very close then why is ownership running out of meetings and Bettman doing circus like speeches.
Donald Fehr's Ali-like rope-a-dope strategy makes opponents crazy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
That makes no sense whatsoever. What is Fehr gaining here in personal terms?
From my observation, Fehr is in this for the competition. He is in this to win, not for the best short or even medium term economic solution. He may be looking long term. Perhaps he believes in winning a deal that allows the players to come out ahead for the next 15-20 years.

For all we know, the players may have instructed Fehr to do whatever it takes to win and he is executing on those instructions.

Interestingly enough, I now almost see the roles reversed. Functionally, this looks like a players' strike to me.

I'm enjoying watchin this play out. This is a very high level chess game played by masters.


Last edited by TaketheCannoli: 12-09-2012 at 12:06 PM.
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Old
12-09-2012, 11:57 AM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Actually, you discredited nothing but rather chose to rely upon a strawman argument instead.

Some people clearly don't want to admit that this entire lockout is due the franchises that are currently in financial peril. The lockout is all about providing financial relief to 6 or so teams that will eventually fold otherwise because they are located in markets where not enough demand exists to financially carry the franchises on their own, and that is after already receiving substantive welfare annual payments in most cases. Choose to plug your ears and ignore the outside world all you wish but it is still there regardless.
Could you tell me how many times the Lightning has received "substantive welfare annual payments"?

Thanks.

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Old
12-09-2012, 12:05 PM
  #146
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Good on you... that's your opinion.

However everyone initially said the players were all united. Yet when there's 700+ players, that's not really realistic - as there's too many variables (age, past/future earnings, career, etc) for that to last for long. Then Hamrlik and Neuvirth spoke out (confirming what most have been saying - that the PA isn't 100% together), and everyone completely slams them. Then people wonder why others haven't spoken out, or claim that everyone other than those 2 are 100% behind Fehr and the PA.

So- you mean like all of the NHL Board of Governour's votes are unanimous?

There is no way any single owner disagrees with the League's approach, right?


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12-09-2012, 12:11 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Just heard an interesting interview with Howard Bloom (Sports Business News). He was questioning why the NHLPA is so stuck on contract length beyond five years term, since given that only 12% of their membership is signed to deals beyond that length, it seems the balance of the league are being held out to protect only those most privileged few.

His view is that as many as 6 teams are on the brink of folding if no season is played this year, and he names them. Claims contraction is more likely to come versus relocation, followed eventually by the issuance of expansion franchises to QC & GTA.
Howard Bloom is a joke. Sports Business News was a website that would copy newspaper articles word for word and then at the end put "from (some source) and Sports Business News". And that was the extent of its content. He used to be a regular on Ottawa radio but then he guaranteed that the Ottawa Senators were moving to Portland and I haven't heard him on it since then.

All he is good for regurgitating stuff that he's read online. His opinions are worthless.

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12-09-2012, 12:12 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by predfan98 View Post
I see you're also including the Detroit Red Wings as a embarrasingly cheap ticket team.... one that isn't a middle of the road team because of these ticket prices....

http://redwings.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=78937

same cheap ticket price, look at both links for a 10/12 game plan.

Mod
The cheapest full Red Wing plan is $1,144, Carolina is $429. Not exactly analogous markets, at all.


Last edited by Gump Hasek: 12-09-2012 at 12:22 PM. Reason: spelling
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12-09-2012, 12:15 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
Could you tell me how many times the Lightning has received "substantive welfare annual payments"?

Thanks.
I didn't say that specifically. MOD


Last edited by Fugu: 12-09-2012 at 02:22 PM. Reason: ...ot
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12-09-2012, 12:22 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by colchar View Post
I cannot understand why owners are pushing for this. As they have said on Hockey Central umpteen times, do the Penguins only want Crosby wrapped up for five years?
Now if memory serves me correctly (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) the NHL is only able to get contracts insured for 5 years. I think (provided I am correct) that is a pretty substantial reason.

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