The Business of HockeyDiscuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Franchise sales, valuations, TV contracts, ratings, expansion, relocation, the CBA and work stoppage discussion goes here.
Players Starting to Ask Uncomfortable Questions of NHLPA Leadership
Now if memory serves me correctly (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) the NHL is only able to get contracts insured for 5 years. I think (provided I am correct) that is a pretty substantial reason.
Yep, just had that confirmed in the stickied megathread. I can see that as being a good reason to die on the 5 year contract hill.
From my observation, Fehr is in this for the competition. He is in this to win, not for the best short or even medium term economic solution. He may be looking long term. Perhaps he believes in winning a deal that allows the players to come out ahead for the next 15-20 years.
For all we know, the players may have instructed Fehr to do whatever it takes to win and he is executing on those instructions.
Interestingly enough, I now almost see the roles reversed. Functionally, this looks like a players' strike to me.
I'm enjoying watchin this play out. This is a very high level chess game played by masters.
That's fine if that's what it is. That's not 'using the players,' that's simply doing his job.
I don't think it looks like a players strike though. They'd gladly play longer under the now-expired CBA. And it's always the owners who get up and leave meetings.
True middle-of-the-road teams have sufficient enough demand for tickets to financially carry their franchises relative to the league mean. They don't need to rely upon embarrassingly cheap ticket programs such as this one (that covers a full 1/4 of the upper tier) just to get the casual Joe into the building...
Those tickets are that cheap in an attempt to uncover the price-point at which demand exists. Tickets are priced according to demand.
This crap again?
The program you're referencing is a sponsored discount. The radio station, 99.9FM, bought the right to sponsor end-zone balcony tickets which are then sold at $9.99 (see the promo connection there?). The tickets aren't just outright discounted to that level to suit demand.
Furthermore, the whole scheme is a way of concentrating STH at the "defense" end of the ice, where there is less demand than in the more-expensive "shooting" end. The promo section sold out for the entire season, so guess where all additional STH packages and gameday sales are going to be sold? That's right, the more expensive end of the ice.
It's a mechanism for maximizing demand for the more expensive product, while making the discount money back through sponsorships.
But don't let all of that get in the way of a ridiculous contraction theory.
That's fine if that's what it is. That's not 'using the players,' that's simply doing his job.
I don't think it looks like a players strike though. They'd gladly play longer under the now-expired CBA. And it's always the owners who get up and leave meetings.
Please link ANY post I made claiming Fehr is using the players.
It's a mechanism for maximizing demand for the more expensive product, while making the discount money back through sponsorships.
It is a mechanism to get butts into the seats via a cheap price under the guise of radio station throwing them some money (likely a small amount) in exchange for publicity. The station pays the club money as naming sponsor. If sufficient demand existed however then the tickets would be priced higher and sans any sponsorship.
A full 1/4 of the upper tier season tickets there are priced at the level of junior hockey season tickets in Canada. That is a telling sign.
Last edited by Gump Hasek: 12-09-2012 at 12:46 PM.
Reason: sp
It is a mechanism to get butts into the seats via a cheap price under the guise of radio station throwing them some money (likely a small amount) in exchange for free publicity. The station pays the club money as naming sponsor. If sufficient demand existed however then the tickets would be priced higher and sans any sponsorship.
A full 1/4 of the upper tier there is priced at the level of junior hockey season tickets in Canada. That is a telling sign.
You have no idea how much the station paid for the sponsorship.
Last edited by Killion: 12-09-2012 at 12:53 PM.
Reason: lets not go there.
You have no idea how much the station paid for the sponsorship.
Nor do you or you'd surely have shared it, so govern yourself according to your own advice.
The point stands...
A full 1/4 of the upper tier season tickets there are priced at the level of junior hockey season tickets in Canada. That is a telling sign.
Last edited by Killion: 12-09-2012 at 12:54 PM.
Reason: edited del...
Just heard an interesting interview with Howard Bloom (Sports Business News). He was questioning why the NHLPA is so stuck on contract length beyond five years term, since given that only 12% of their membership is signed to deals beyond that length, it seems the balance of the league are being held out to protect only those most privileged few.
His view is that as many as 6 teams are on the brink of folding if no season is played this year, and he names them. Claims contraction is more likely to come versus relocation, followed eventually by the issuance of expansion franchises to QC & GTA.
12 minutes in length; the interview with Bloom begins at roughly the 1 minute mark. Click the play button located at the top left of the page - beside the headline. It gets really interesting just past the 10 minute mark.
The entire interview is just a big load.
He derides the players as uneducated and stupid, then lays into Fehr for using the media, ignoring that the fact Bettman has done the same thing.
He criticizes the Canadian media for the way they treat Bettman ("reprehensible"), yet does the same thing to Fehr.
Claims the Canadian media who don't understand the nuances of sports business, yet he himself comes off as less educated than a typical HF BoH poster.
Claims the Canadian dollar made up "40%" of NHL's post-lockout growth, in reality it was a mere 0.8%.
Adler brings up that Americans are spending less on hockey and implies that the recession seriously hurt the league, yet revenues are at an all-time high.
Claims Donald Fehr "is pushing hundreds of NHL jobs off the cliff."
Says Florida, Carolina, Tampa, Columbus, and Phoenix are on the verge of folding. What's his evidence? None, other than "the NHL should have never expanded into Florida" and that Carolina tarped off a few seats last year.
Oh, and apparently the league would rather contract over relocate so they can later expand and get "$400-500 million" in expansion fees from a Quebec City expansion club (Winnipeg, for reference, paid $170 million).
Nor do you or you'd surely have shared it, so govern yourself according to your own advice.
The difference is that I didn't claim to have that knowledge.
Quote:
The point stands....
Not really. You made a claim that was based on a baseless and misleading interpretation of what you saw.
But hey, if you're still confident that you're right, base your reputation on it. Let's both bookmark this thread and revisit it in a couple of years when these 6 teams either have or have not folded. It should be pretty simple to see how close you are to being right about this.
Says Florida, Carolina, Tampa, Columbus, and Phoenix are on the verge of folding. What's his evidence? None, other than "the NHL should have never expanded into Florida" and that Carolina tarped off a few seats last year.
Oh, and apparently the league would rather contract over relocate so they can later expand and get "$400-500 million" in expansion fees from a Quebec City expansion club (Winnipeg, for reference, paid $170 million).
That was the main part I had an issue with; a Toronto/GTA expansion fee would prove lucrative for sure but to apply that to QC is beyond stretching it.
That's fine if that's what it is. That's not 'using the players,' that's simply doing his job.
I don't think it looks like a players strike though. They'd gladly play longer under the now-expired CBA. And it's always the owners who get up and leave meetings.
I think a lot of people aren't aware of the ploy there though. They think that if they were playing under the cba this year it was going to be an extension of the old CBA word for word. But from what the lawyer on hockey central said months ago, it was just under the financial terms, all the wording making a players strike illegal wouldn't be in effect. So the players could have basically held the season hostage. So of course they'd gladly play and negotiate, because they would have all of the leverage.
Now if memory serves me correctly (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) the NHL is only able to get contracts insured for 5 years. I think (provided I am correct) that is a pretty substantial reason.
I believe you are absolutely correct but surely they must be able to re-insure those contracts for subsequent five year terms? On Hockey Central they have consistently said that this five year term issue is simply a means through which the league/owners are seeking to idiot proof things since they have proven that they cannot be trusted not to hand out ridiculous contracts.
Nor did I, but rather, I suggested the fee was likely small because it was a radio station.
I'm also not the one that suggested those teams would fold for sure but rather posted a link to an interview. Hope that helps.
Edit: albatross beat me to it, but "this entire lockout is due the franchises that are currently in financial peril. The lockout is all about providing financial relief to 6 or so teams that will eventually fold otherwise because they are located in markets where not enough demand exists to financially carry the franchises on their own" were the exact words used. I'd say that counts as saying that franchises are getting ready to fold. Using small qualifiers like "or so" and "eventually" doesn't change the core argument being made.
You also the following misleading claim in support of your point that Carolina belonged on a list of relocation candidates:
"They don't need to rely upon embarrassingly cheap ticket programs such as this one (that covers a full 1/4 of the upper tier) just to get the casual Joe into the building..."
(Ignoring that the program wasn't a discount but a sponsored price; and that it was aimed at full season STH, not "casual Joes")
This is not to mention that the team just acquired a new coalition of minority owners to join the billionaire Karmanos, signed an expanded television contract, hit a STH record, has zero arena issues, signed two marquee players, and has had absolutely no visible hand in this lockout.
If you want to take potshots at the market, that's your right. But you are not correct that this franchise belongs in the category of the seriously-troubled or that they're pushing the league into a lockout. You'd be hard-pressed to find an organization that will be harmed more by the timing of this stoppage.
Last edited by tarheelhockey: 12-09-2012 at 01:32 PM.
Nor did I, but rather, I suggested the fee was likely small because it was a radio station.
I'm also not the one that suggested those teams would fold for sure but rather posted a link to an interview. Hope that helps.
Did you not just post on the previous page that the lockout was due to six or so teams that will eventually fold without assistance? That if we didn't believe that we were just ignoring the facts? Seems like a bit more than just posting a link.
You did, however, make the following misleading claim in support of your point that Carolina belonged on a list of relocation candidates:
"They don't need to rely upon embarrassingly cheap ticket programs such as this one (that covers a full 1/4 of the upper tier) just to get the casual Joe into the building..."
(Ignoring that the program wasn't a discount but a sponsored price; and that it was aimed at full season STH, not "casual Joes")
This is not to mention that the team just acquired a new coalition of minority owners to join the billionaire Karmanos, signed an expanded television contract, hit a STH record, has zero arena issues, signed two marquee players, and has had absolutely no visible hand in this lockout.
If you want to take potshots at the market, that's your right. But you are not correct that this franchise belongs in the category of the seriously-troubled or that they're pushing the league into a lockout. You'd be hard-pressed to find an organization that will be harmed more by the timing of this stoppage.
You can choose to paint the picture however you wish. The fact remains however that if sufficient demand existed in that market then $9.99 tickets wouldn't exist, let alone to that extent of inventory.
For what it is worth, I doubt your team will fold over the near term because the league plans to instead further tax the able markets in order to provide additional annual welfare payments to teams unable to carry their own load. I'm against additional taxation because it just serves to create poorer overall economies and simply prolongs the inevitable.
He also didn't 'nearly destroy' MLB, that's the line people use when they reveal themselves to have no grasp for what the sport accomplished while he was working for the players within it.
He destroyed it from a fans perspective, not a financial one. If you're a Pittsburgh Pirates fan, can you honestly say that the sport is better off because of Fehr?
Did you not just post on the previous page that the lockout was due to six or so teams that will eventually fold without assistance? That if we didn't believe that we were just ignoring the facts? Seems like a bit more than just posting a link.
No. I posted a link to an interview and recapped main points of what the interview subject stated.
The welfare of others is growing. Your market loses money on its own, as per Forbes and many others. This is borne out by the need for $9.99 tickets.
So we believe Forbes numbers now?
This is not to pick on you specifically, but I've seen many times on this board where the Forbes valuations and annual reports are denied vehemently. By people who state that it's nothing more than a tool used by the league to justify the lockout. That it's all accounting tricks and hoops and guesstimates. I have also seen people state just what you did. That the Forbes numbers prove bad markets and bad fans. Maybe if I spent more time here on a regular basis I would understand this split, but as of now, I'm not getting it.
He destroyed it from a fans perspective, not a financial one. If you're a Pittsburgh Pirates fan, can you honestly say that the sport is better off because of Fehr?
Or Brewers, Jays, Expos, Orioles, KC etc.
Fehr took baseball back to the haves and have nots in the most extreme way. Say what you will about the current cap system, but I for one, am glad that we don't see teams like the Rangers, Wings and Leafs loading up on all the mercenaries like we used to. At least now guys at the middle and bottom tiers are valued because you need them in a cap world. The parity is much better now.
For years in Edmonton we were forced to trade guys because we could not afford the offers other clubs would make. The cap, and stable ownership, have changed that. Mostly the cap though IMHO.
