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Jagr: What could have been

View Poll Results: If not for time lost, would Jagr have passed Messier in points?
Yes 180 91.84%
No 16 8.16%
Voters: 196. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-14-2012, 01:56 PM
  #101
pdd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
As for the playoff comments Yzerman actually had more seasons where his teams made the playoffs over Messier.

If Yzerman and the Red Wings didn't blow up constantly in the playoffs his numbers would probably look better and he wouldn't have been subject to constant trade speculation for so much of his early career.


There really is no argument for Yzerman having a better career than Messier.. there just isn't... no matter what spin one person puts on it.
The only problem with Yzerman's playoffs vs. Messier's is that Yzerman didn't play a significant number of playoff games until his prime was over (only twice during his prime did his team pass the second round and only to face dynasty Edmonton, and none before).

Messier had the benefit of playing his early career on a line with Gretzky and going deep into the playoffs, followed by centering his own line as he moved into his prime and continued to go deep into the playoffs on a DYNASTY TEAM on which he was arguably as low as the fifth-best player behind Gretzky, Coffey, Kurri, and Fuhr (I'd probably rank him ahead of Fuhr career, but Fuhr was probably more important to the Oilers). Edmonton 1990 he had a solid forwards corps surrounding him, some decent defensemen, and a very strong goaltending performance from Ranford. And NYR 1994, the team was loaded with solid players like a budding Kovalev and Amonte, peak Graves, a post-prime Anderson, MacTavish and Tikkanen to do the defensive work, with Leetch, Zubov, Lowe, and Beukeboom on the D in front of a peak Richter. Messier was at bet the third-best player on the team, probably fourth behind Leetch, Richter, and Zubov. You could have dropped Nicholls or Carson into Messier's spot and they could have won the Cup.

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Old
12-14-2012, 03:36 PM
  #102
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What was a huge reason for Detroit's struggles? Yzerman's poor play!

3 years in the early 90s Yzerman had over 100 points in the regular season only for him to regress and be under a PPG in the playoffs.. and that was when he was only about offense.. unlike Messier who was always a responsible two way player.

Yes Messier got to play on a dynasty (As did Yzerman arguably last team to win back to back cups and three cups in six years... most succesful team past 16 seasons) double edged sword.. this also had a negative effect on his regular season numbers.. really any surprise he had his biggest regular season by far when Gretzky was gone? He did it as a 30 year old too which is late for a career year... the only other player who was a PPG on that Oilers team was Kurri who was 36 points behind Messier that year.

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Old
12-14-2012, 03:40 PM
  #103
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According to the History of Hockey top 70 players of all time 2009 (well after both players careers had finished)

Mark Messier was voted 22nd.

Steve Yzerman was 36th...14 behind Messier as well as below Joe Sakic and Jaromir Jagr.

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Old
12-14-2012, 04:02 PM
  #104
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Funny also reading that list... Gretzky, Coffey, Kurri, Fhur...

He won a cup without 3 of them!.... is Yzerman ever winning a cup without Nik Lidstrom?

Laughable to suggest anyone of Coffey, Kurri or Fhur had better careers than Messier.

Kurri had a great career..you want to know why he had a great career? Because he was playing with the Greatest player of all time on every shift for what 10+ years?

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Old
12-14-2012, 06:21 PM
  #105
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I'm just gonna stop bothering to argue with this guy....

You bring up all these intangibles for Yzerman and Federov when its convenient (Youtube clip of Federov's "anticipation", saying people called Yzerman a better player after his two way game developed, etc.), completely ignore their downsides (unmotivated Federov, Yzerman choker label pre-1997, etc.), and then only harp on the downsides of Messier (his stay in Vancouver) while not bring up any of his intangibles (leadership of captaining two teams to a cup, his immense physical game, mean streak, etc.).


It's like talking to a wall. I know what facets of the game Yzerman was better at than Messier, and I also know what facets Messier was better at than Yzerman. All things considered, I (and most other people) consider Messier to have a greater career than Yzerman.

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Old
12-14-2012, 06:28 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ag925 View Post
If not for games lost to lockouts ('94-'95, '04-'05, '12-'13) and his time in the KHL ('08-'09, '09-'10, '10-'11), would Jagr have passed Messier for 2nd all-time in points?

Regular Season:
Messier - 1,887
Jagr - 1,653
Difference - 234
Not only pass him but would probably pass 2,000 points.

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Old
12-14-2012, 07:25 PM
  #107
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How did this become an argument about Yzerman vs Messier?

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Old
12-14-2012, 07:52 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by iamjs View Post
Not only pass him but would probably pass 2,000 points.
Let's say Jagr was to average 80 Pts in the 3 seasons he missed playing in the KHL, that gives him an additional 240 Pts.

Then you add another possible 80-100 Pts in 2004-05 and finally 30-40 additional points this season (if there is a season) with the games lost and you're looking at a possible 350-380 Pts and that means Jagr would have anywhere between 2003-2033 Pts.

He would be the NHL's second all-time leader and the only player other than Gretzky with 2000+ Pts.

He would have most certainly passed Messier.

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Old
12-15-2012, 01:50 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Let's say Jagr was to average 80 Pts in the 3 seasons he missed playing in the KHL, that gives him an additional 240 Pts.

Then you add another possible 80-100 Pts in 2004-05 and finally 30-40 additional points this season (if there is a season) with the games lost and you're looking at a possible 350-380 Pts and that means Jagr would have anywhere between 2003-2033 Pts.

He would be the NHL's second all-time leader and the only player other than Gretzky with 2000+ Pts.

He would have most certainly passed Messier.
Agree 100 %.

Sometimes I think Jagr is so underrated in these boards. I bet if he was born in Canada he would be listed in the same category with Lemiux and Gretzky.

And when comparing Jagr and Messier, how come nobody mentions the international level? Jagr: Triple gold membership: Olympic gold, 2 WHC gold + other medals. That's gotta mean something and Jagr's MVP-status for his national team. Which makes it interesting why Messier was left out of the 1998 Nagano team? Just asking, not here to start a fight .

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