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Rene Bourque

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Old
12-09-2012, 05:10 PM
  #51
Blind Gardien
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
I am comparing the same spastic reaction to slumps you see constantly with the so called "true" fans of the habs and the things they hold dear. He was acquired by Gauthier so that is a -1, he isn't french so that is a -1, he only had 18 goals and below his high 20's average so that is a -1. How the **** do you know he is inconsistant when he has been with the habs for 38 games under 2 coaches that don't belong in the NHL?
Hmm, I don't care who acquired him. Gauthier probably acquired some players I like too, it doesn't make sense to hold the GM against the player. I don't know why you'd ever think that happens. He isn't french... few care... but his name gets him a lot closer than most of the players. None of my favourite current Habs are french. 18 goals? Well, he didn't look even like an 18 goal scorer for us. His play speaks for itself. He was abysmal. 38 games doesn't close the book on him, for sure, but it defintely was a terrible "first impression".
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It is the same nonsense with Kaberle and the people who want him bought out.
It's all about cost effectiveness and how to get the best team. If Weber and Diaz outplay Kaberle, I don't see much use for Kaberle at a $4.25M cap hit. If you can get a better player cheaper, you do it. It's not complicated. Kaberle and Bourque have of course been better in the past than they have as Habs. Maybe they rebound, maybe they don't. Their reliability factors in as well. It's all conditionals, guesswork, and different people will gamble in different directions. I don't want Kaberle or Bourque dumped just for the sake of dumping them, or because I dislike the GM who acquired them. I would want them moved in order to make the Habs a better team.

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12-09-2012, 05:10 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Had him for what 38 games? Ofcourse he wont be missed. The "kneejerks" in the crowd were spouting off this nonsense seconds after the trade was done simply because of the irrational hatred of Gauthier. Now Gauthiers moves are coming to fruition they are becoming a little quieter.



I am comparing the same spastic reaction to slumps you see constantly with the so called "true" fans of the habs and the things they hold dear. He was acquired by Gauthier so that is a -1, he isn't french so that is a -1, he only had 18 goals and below his high 20's average so that is a -1. How the **** do you know he is inconsistant when he has been with the habs for 38 games under 2 coaches that don't belong in the NHL?

It is the same nonsense with Kaberle and the people who want him bought out.
I, for one, never had an irrational hatred towards Gauthier or Martin for that matter. I was never a fan of either of them but they were far from incompetent.

If Bourque had a 1 or 2 year contract or we had a management team that would punt his butt to Hamilton if that was what he deserved, I'd be a lot less against giving another chance.

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12-09-2012, 05:54 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Hmm, I don't care who acquired him. Gauthier probably acquired some players I like too, it doesn't make sense to hold the GM against the player. I don't know why you'd ever think that happens. He isn't french... few care... but his name gets him a lot closer than most of the players. None of my favourite current Habs are french. 18 goals? Well, he didn't look even like an 18 goal scorer for us. His play speaks for itself. He was abysmal. 38 games doesn't close the book on him, for sure, but it defintely was a terrible "first impression".

It's all about cost effectiveness and how to get the best team. If Weber and Diaz outplay Kaberle, I don't see much use for Kaberle at a $4.25M cap hit. If you can get a better player cheaper, you do it. It's not complicated. Kaberle and Bourque have of course been better in the past than they have as Habs. Maybe they rebound, maybe they don't. Their reliability factors in as well. It's all conditionals, guesswork, and different people will gamble in different directions. I don't want Kaberle or Bourque dumped just for the sake of dumping them, or because I dislike the GM who acquired them. I would want them moved in order to make the Habs a better team.
Weber and Diaz havn't outplayed anyone, if they were waved they stand a good chance of not being grabbed because every team has young players like them. Moving vets like Kaberle and Bourque doesn't make the habs better, that is ludicrous. Go look at how well the Bulldogs are doing to see who would be stepping into their place.

Or maybe you think a UFA can replace them? Go find me a 40pt dman who makes significantly less than 4.2 million or a 20 goal forward who gets less that 3.3 million. Until then it just sounds like irrational crying to me.


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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
I, for one, never had an irrational hatred towards Gauthier or Martin for that matter. I was never a fan of either of them but they were far from incompetent.

If Bourque had a 1 or 2 year contract or we had a management team that would punt his butt to Hamilton if that was what he deserved, I'd be a lot less against giving another chance.
Give him "another" chance? When was the first chance exactly? He gets tossed into the burning wreakage of a team and the "kneejerks" expect miracles, good luck with that.

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Old
12-09-2012, 06:06 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Seatoo View Post
Keith Ballard straight up.
Normally I'd be intrigued and it would be a good trade value wise. However, Montreal currently has Kaberle, Weber, Diaz on 1 way contracts and Beaulieu and St. Denis in Hamilton. There is zero need for a Keith Ballard type player.

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12-09-2012, 06:21 PM
  #55
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Not sure why so much hate for Bourque, the guy was bad in MTL, but so was everyone, and he played with Plek who himself didn't have a good year.

Bourque would be a good fit on the 3rd line with Eller, and Prust, Bourque isn't a liability in his own end, and can play the pk.

The guy can score, something the Habs need. Before getting traded to MTL he had 13 goals in 38 games, would project to around 27 goals, the same amount he had for 2 years in a row before last year.

And ppl complain about his contract.. For the next 3 season, his cap hit is at 3.33 and in the final two years only gets paid 2.5M, and that is on a 70M cap, contract that can easily be moved.


Last edited by habs03: 12-09-2012 at 06:31 PM.
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12-09-2012, 06:38 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by kresco View Post
Ya but out of the 27 goals he got at least 10 of them were empty net goals. I'm not kidding. I watch every flames game and the only time Bourque would be a mad dog on the ice was when the goalie was pulled. I still have a mug in my wall where I threw it out of frustration from bourque. after watching him for 4 years I realized his stats dont reflect the player he is at all. He is a very talented gritty player who play's maybe 20 out of the 82 games each year. He is one of the most wasted talents in the league. Kelly Hrudy called him out on national television for his laziness. If he put in half the work he does when there is an empty net he would be a 70 point player
He had 1 empty net goal the year he scored 27. http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...viewName=goals.

Bad basis to your argument but I agree with the inconsistency. He's gotta work hard every game and he'd be a highly sought after top 6

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12-09-2012, 06:47 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Weber and Diaz havn't outplayed anyone,
I didn't say they had. I said *IF* they outplayed Kaberle, then why keep Kaberle. Cost effectiveness. It would however not be a completely unreasonable gamble to think that they *might* outplay Kaberle. I personally would have gambled on this. Habs management did not. So it is now officially a moot point. At least until the next off-season, whenever that may be.
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Moving vets like Kaberle and Bourque doesn't make the habs better, that is ludicrous.
It does make the Habs better if you replace them with better players, of course. Neither player played up to the value of their respective contracts last year, for example. Find a player who will. There's always an element of risk in that. But Kaberle and Bourque are a pair who have already demonstrated failure in that regard, so are probably a higher risk than some. Again, however, Habs failed to find (or look for, who knows) such players, so it is once again a moot point in the short term for the Habs.
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Or maybe you think a UFA can replace them? Go find me a 40pt dman who makes significantly less than 4.2 million or a 20 goal forward who gets less that 3.3 million. Until then it just sounds like irrational crying to me.
Bourque was a 5-goal player for us, not a 20 one. Kaberle played essentially at the level of M-A Bergeron for us. These are not difficult elements to replace. At all. But of course, I personally do believe that both players can be better than those respective levels. How much better? Remains to be seen. If you watched the Habs last season, you will know this is true and not "irrational crying". Maybe you gave up and stopped watching? Those were not good players for us, and not worth their salaries.

You can't have perfect cost effectiveness with every player on your team, of course. There will be some pluses and minuses in a given year, it's inevitable. But after players do put up minuses, and you consider their age, the player type they represent, their past tendencies and trends... I don't see how it adds up to an optimistic outlook for Bourque and Kaberle. One can always hope. But serious optimism would be quite misplaced in their cases.

I will hope they rebound, as a fan. As Habs fantasy manager, I would be working to dump them at maximum benefit to my team, however... while still hoping for them to turn things around in the meantime. But again, even if they do turn things around, what do they represent? An aging soft defender with 2nd unit PP skills. A soft underachieving forward who can score 20 goals. It would be a sad day for any team in the league if they truly *needed* players like that for anything but a very short term band-aid. Habs could have used the band-aid this season, true. Next season? If they do, management will have failed in some fashion. (Well, or the lockout will still be going on!).

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12-09-2012, 06:56 PM
  #58
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I'd ask my pro scouts and you just what the rationale for the 5th/3rd round swap... I'd angle towards opposing it. It's a lot of cap money coming to us on what otherwise isn't clearly a lopsided deal. But end of the day, if I had convincing arguments presented it wouldn't be a hold up, looks like a fine change of scenery deal.
Meh, I just think Ballard = Bourque in terms of talent and Raymond > Weber. It's not like a dealbreaker for me swapping picks, but I don't see Weber ever becoming more than a 4-5 defenseman while Raymond has produced at a solid top-6 rate before in his career.

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12-09-2012, 07:09 PM
  #59
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I didn't say they had. I said *IF* they outplayed Kaberle, then why keep Kaberle. Cost effectiveness. It would however not be a completely unreasonable gamble to think that they *might* outplay Kaberle. I personally would have gambled on this. Habs management did not. So it is now officially a moot point. At least until the next off-season, whenever that may be.
It does make the Habs better if you replace them with better players, of course. Neither player played up to the value of their respective contracts last year, for example. Find a player who will. There's always an element of risk in that. But Kaberle and Bourque are a pair who have already demonstrated failure in that regard, so are probably a higher risk than some. Again, however, Habs failed to find (or look for, who knows) such players, so it is once again a moot point in the short term for the Habs.

Bourque was a 5-goal player for us, not a 20 one. Kaberle played essentially at the level of M-A Bergeron for us. These are not difficult elements to replace. At all. But of course, I personally do believe that both players can be better than those respective levels. How much better? Remains to be seen. If you watched the Habs last season, you will know this is true and not "irrational crying". Maybe you gave up and stopped watching? Those were not good players for us, and not worth their salaries.

You can't have perfect cost effectiveness with every player on your team, of course. There will be some pluses and minuses in a given year, it's inevitable. But after players do put up minuses, and you consider their age, the player type they represent, their past tendencies and trends... I don't see how it adds up to an optimistic outlook for Bourque and Kaberle. One can always hope. But serious optimism would be quite misplaced in their cases.

I will hope they rebound, as a fan. As Habs fantasy manager, I would be working to dump them at maximum benefit to my team, however... while still hoping for them to turn things around in the meantime. But again, even if they do turn things around, what do they represent? An aging soft defender with 2nd unit PP skills. A soft underachieving forward who can score 20 goals. It would be a sad day for any team in the league if they truly *needed* players like that for anything but a very short term band-aid. Habs could have used the band-aid this season, true. Next season? If they do, management will have failed in some fashion. (Well, or the lockout will still be going on!).
This is EXACTLY why I want to trade Bourque. You have pointed everything out.

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12-09-2012, 08:23 PM
  #60
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More canuck fans trying to dump Ballard and Raymond. The habs don't want them. We got our own bad contracts to try and get rid of.

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12-09-2012, 08:58 PM
  #61
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After the Cammaleri for Bourque trade, Renee has had difficulty living up to the montreal expectations. Your best bet would be to keep him due to his size and hope that under your new coach he can go back to his gritty, hard playing and goal scoring ways. If that does not become an option I could see him being traded to a team like CBJ or Det

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12-10-2012, 12:49 AM
  #62
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prediction - bork pots 27 goals for habs playing next to plekanecs and then suddenly everyone wants a 6'2 winger with a cap friendly contract.
that's how HF boards role.

PS I'm not a bork fan but the guy is seriously trashed in every freakin' proposal

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12-10-2012, 12:58 AM
  #63
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More canuck fans trying to dump Ballard and Raymond. The habs don't want them. We got our own bad contracts to try and get rid of.
Happy to keep Ballard, and Raymond's contract isn't bad. 2.275 million for a fast 40 point guy...only thing that sucks is that we don't have room for him.

3rd line winger and a bottom 4 Dman? I don't know that Bourque is worth that without a catch for one or both of them after last year. You're best bet is to keep him IMO. He's definitely talented, but he's buy low right now. 18 goals is great, but six assists and a -19?...let him rebound, you'll be glad you did.

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12-10-2012, 01:04 AM
  #64
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Not sure why so much hate for Bourque, the guy was bad in MTL, but so was everyone, and he played with Plek who himself didn't have a good year.

Bourque would be a good fit on the 3rd line with Eller, and Prust, Bourque isn't a liability in his own end, and can play the pk.

The guy can score, something the Habs need. Before getting traded to MTL he had 13 goals in 38 games, would project to around 27 goals, the same amount he had for 2 years in a row before last year.

And ppl complain about his contract.. For the next 3 season, his cap hit is at 3.33 and in the final two years only gets paid 2.5M, and that is on a 70M cap, contract that can easily be moved.
He's terrrrible. Obviously he's got natural scoring ability, but he's been an on-ice liability of all sorts since being signed to that contract. He did end up being busted to the 3rd line in Calgary and still managed to absolutely sink it. He's always had a penchant for taking bad penalties, but he used to be a good possession forward to make up for it. Now he's just a floater who occasionally decides to put on the jets and score.

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12-10-2012, 02:46 PM
  #65
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He's terrrrible. Obviously he's got natural scoring ability, but he's been an on-ice liability of all sorts since being signed to that contract. He did end up being busted to the 3rd line in Calgary and still managed to absolutely sink it. He's always had a penchant for taking bad penalties, but he used to be a good possession forward to make up for it. Now he's just a floater who occasionally decides to put on the jets and score.
He still managed to score 13 goals in 38 games with the flames last year. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with moving him, but you can't move him unless you had a replacement that can score 20-25 + goals.

Mtl has issue's scoring, last thing they need to do is give away guys that can score without first finding a replacement.

Bourque was never brought in to replace Cammy in the top 6, but to replace AK, play on the 3rd line and step in if injuries occur.

The Habs team as a whole was horrible last year, even Plekanec was -13 before the Bourque trade, and Bourque got to only play with him, with a plug on RW, Bluden, White, etc.

All this under probably the worst coaching staff in NHL history, (two AHL coaches, and an ast GM that never coached )

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12-10-2012, 03:13 PM
  #66
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I didn't say they had. I said *IF* they outplayed Kaberle, then why keep Kaberle. Cost effectiveness. It would however not be a completely unreasonable gamble to think that they *might* outplay Kaberle. I personally would have gambled on this. Habs management did not. So it is now officially a moot point. At least until the next off-season, whenever that may be.
It does make the Habs better if you replace them with better players, of course. Neither player played up to the value of their respective contracts last year, for example. Find a player who will. There's always an element of risk in that. But Kaberle and Bourque are a pair who have already demonstrated failure in that regard, so are probably a higher risk than some. Again, however, Habs failed to find (or look for, who knows) such players, so it is once again a moot point in the short term for the Habs.

Bourque was a 5-goal player for us, not a 20 one. Kaberle played essentially at the level of M-A Bergeron for us. These are not difficult elements to replace. At all. But of course, I personally do believe that both players can be better than those respective levels. How much better? Remains to be seen. If you watched the Habs last season, you will know this is true and not "irrational crying". Maybe you gave up and stopped watching? Those were not good players for us, and not worth their salaries.

You can't have perfect cost effectiveness with every player on your team, of course. There will be some pluses and minuses in a given year, it's inevitable. But after players do put up minuses, and you consider their age, the player type they represent, their past tendencies and trends... I don't see how it adds up to an optimistic outlook for Bourque and Kaberle. One can always hope. But serious optimism would be quite misplaced in their cases.

I will hope they rebound, as a fan. As Habs fantasy manager, I would be working to dump them at maximum benefit to my team, however... while still hoping for them to turn things around in the meantime. But again, even if they do turn things around, what do they represent? An aging soft defender with 2nd unit PP skills. A soft underachieving forward who can score 20 goals. It would be a sad day for any team in the league if they truly *needed* players like that for anything but a very short term band-aid. Habs could have used the band-aid this season, true. Next season? If they do, management will have failed in some fashion. (Well, or the lockout will still be going on!).
Later in last season year, Diaz did very well when paired with Emelin, and it could be a really good 3rd pair, if we move Kaberle and find a RD partner to play with Markov.

The problem is that we don't know for sure that Markov can play a full season and stay healthy, and until Markov proves that, Kaberle is still needed, Subban, Diaz both showed last year that they can't run a powerplay. Mtl PP did a lot better when Kaberle arrived. So while I see what you mean by saying Kaberle isn't needed, and agree, it wouldn't be wise to move him until Markov proves to be back at 100%.

In regards to Bourque, while he doesn't play aggressive, he isn't really soft, most of his goals are simply just being around the net, so its not like he is afraid of contact. And his contract isn't really a burden, and not sure why you give him away unless you have a better replacement.


Last edited by habs03: 12-10-2012 at 03:29 PM.
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12-10-2012, 05:31 PM
  #67
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He still managed to score 13 goals in 38 games with the flames last year. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with moving him, but you can't move him unless you had a replacement that can score 20-25 + goals.

Mtl has issue's scoring, last thing they need to do is give away guys that can score without first finding a replacement.

Bourque was never brought in to replace Cammy in the top 6, but to replace AK, play on the 3rd line and step in if injuries occur.

The Habs team as a whole was horrible last year, even Plekanec was -13 before the Bourque trade, and Bourque got to only play with him, with a plug on RW, Bluden, White, etc.

All this under probably the worst coaching staff in NHL history, (two AHL coaches, and an ast GM that never coached )
We should of realized that this was a mistake and brought AK back or signed Jagr, both of whom wanted to be here, unlike Bourque and then traded Bourque.

With the cap world we live in I'm becoming more and more a believer once a player becomes a boat anchor he's got to go, similar to Carolina and Kaberle. Maybe Kaberle was going to turn his game around but who cares, trade him anyways. Accept a small loss instead of hanging onto a losing proposition.

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12-10-2012, 06:48 PM
  #68
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We should of realized that this was a mistake and brought AK back or signed Jagr, both of whom wanted to be here, unlike Bourque and then traded Bourque.

With the cap world we live in I'm becoming more and more a believer once a player becomes a boat anchor he's got to go, similar to Carolina and Kaberle. Maybe Kaberle was going to turn his game around but who cares, trade him anyways. Accept a small loss instead of hanging onto a losing proposition.
Bourque vs AK is what it really comes down to it. For me I'd take Bourque over AK, but I could see how some would rather have AK. Ak is more physical, more talented, but Bourque has been the better goal scorer, something the habs need, and AK had his boat anchor moments (ex 2010 playoffs, 3 goals in 19 games, all 3 goals in 1 game).

Again I could see an how some would rather keep AK, but atleast when he is useless Bourque can be used on the pk.

In regards to Kaberle.. you said

"Maybe Kaberle was going to turn his game around but who cares, trade him anyways. Accept a small loss instead of hanging onto a losing proposition"

I don't agree with this, IMO did turn his game around when he came to MTL, he was never good in his own end, and I guess the Canes expected that, but they didn't receive any offensive from him either (coming to camp in bad shape might have been a problem). But when he got to MTL, he was still his bad defensively self, but was putting up points.

As I said, Markov is a question mark, so having Kaberle as a backup is a good thing until Markov proves to be 100%, so I don't see how just trading Kaberle away for nothing is a positive thing for the team, unless the team has another option.

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12-10-2012, 08:37 PM
  #69
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Bourque vs AK is what it really comes down to it. For me I'd take Bourque over AK, but I could see how some would rather have AK. Ak is more physical, more talented, but Bourque has been the better goal scorer, something the habs need, and AK had his boat anchor moments (ex 2010 playoffs, 3 goals in 19 games, all 3 goals in 1 game).

Again I could see an how some would rather keep AK, but atleast when he is useless Bourque can be used on the pk.

In regards to Kaberle.. you said

"Maybe Kaberle was going to turn his game around but who cares, trade him anyways. Accept a small loss instead of hanging onto a losing proposition"

I don't agree with this, IMO did turn his game around when he came to MTL, he was never good in his own end, and I guess the Canes expected that, but they didn't receive any offensive from him either (coming to camp in bad shape might have been a problem). But when he got to MTL, he was still his bad defensively self, but was putting up points.

As I said, Markov is a question mark, so having Kaberle as a backup is a good thing until Markov proves to be 100%, so I don't see how just trading Kaberle away for nothing is a positive thing for the team, unless the team has another option.
For me the most important quality I'm looking for in a player filling the role is what effect he has, both positive and negative, if he was playing with one of our younger players, say Eller. This is where Bourque really hits failing marks from me while AK would get a very marginal passing grade.

Maybe if we were a contending team or at least being capable of winning a playoff round or two I would change my criteria of what I think is important but with team our priority should be on developing our younger players.

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12-10-2012, 09:14 PM
  #70
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Ok so next season if we would get McGinn and Wilson:

Pacioretty-Desharnais-Cole
Galchenyuk-plekanec-Gionta
McGinn-Eller-Leblanc
Moen-White-Prust

Subban-Gorges
Markov-Wilson
Diaz-Emelin

Why is that a team full of grinders?
So you want to put what is hopefully the franchise's future cornerstone center, on the line which will get the hardest defensive minutes, in his first year in the NHL?

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12-10-2012, 09:43 PM
  #71
Reinhart
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Bourque seems to be sort of an enigma here. He isn't - it is quite simple really.

Watch Bourque play a few years ago. Watch him play now. What has changed? Bourque was much more of a 'bull' in the china shop. For a short time, he was even heralded as the player to pick up after Jarome leaves. Watch Bourque play, and he used to sometimes just take a game over. Great shot, and when he is playing a power-forward type game, he is truly a 'beast'. No overrating here - when Bourque is on his game, he IS A BEAST and can take over a game.

So, what has changed? Some people say: "He doesn't care anymore", "he is lazy", etc. Well, to be honest, it was rare to see him put 10 great games together at any one time. Inconsistency is definitely an issue with his game, but he is being paid 3.5 million/year (if memory serves me) not 7 million. If he was consistent every game, he would be one of the higher scoring forwards in the league - add his physicality into the equation, and he would be a 'stud' in this league.

His contract = his output (or it has, up until this past year). What happened to Bourque? Why does he not 'take over a game' any longer? Why doesn't he play with that 'edge'?

Concussions. I saw him struggle to get back to that type of player. When he did, he got another concussion. That is why he plays a somewhat perimeter game nowadays. He isn't one of those slick high hockey-IQ type of players that does well on the rush. He is a 'north-south' type of honest player that crashes the net. He tries to play that way, he gets his noggin run. I think this is Bourque trying to stay healthy now.

I don't blame him. I can't remember how many concussions he has had in his career, but I honestly think that he did his best to fight through them and maintain his playing style. I feel really bad for him more than anything.

The 'infamous' night that Hrudey called him out on national TV - Hrudey was both wrong and right. Bourque does possess the ability to be a PPG player - one of the scoring leaders in the NHL, with game-breaking ability. He was 100% right on that. What he was wrong on was: "He has no heart, he doesn't care, and he should apologize to the rest of the Calgary Flames players." Many fans felt the same way in Calgary. They saw the old Rene Bourque take over games at times, even challenge Iginla for the top RW position (pushed Iginla, especially at the beginning of every season). He was that good. To see him not do the things that have made him successful - fans and some media personalities assumed he had no 'heart' left.

I think Bourque is just scared to have his career end with another concussion. It is unfortunate that he is only effective when playing that physical game. That is how I see Bourque now - someone just trying to hang on maintaining his health after having some 'scares'. I really do believe that he is one concussion away from being out of the NHL, and I am betting he believes the same thing.

Inconsistent in his game? Yes, he has always been inconsistent. Uncaring... I don't buy it - not when you see his concussion history, and follow his play after coming back from each one. He is just a guy trying to hang on and be able to walk away from this game still being able to live a normal life. That is what I see in Rene Bourque now. From reckless, to overly-cautious.

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