HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Lockout IV: One likes to believe in the freedom of hockey (Moderated: see post #2)

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-14-2012, 10:28 PM
  #726
Mr. Fancy Pants
Registered User
 
Mr. Fancy Pants's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Gifu
Country: Japan
Posts: 367
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
What expenses do they get to deduct (and what does that even mean)? My understanding is that HRR doesn't even measure expenses, it measures revenue. There's a limit to what counts as revenue, but all the major stuff is in there: jerseys and merch, TV deals, tickets, parking, etc. So are you saying they calculate expenses as well when measuring revenue, and then lop the value of some expenses off the top? Which expenses would those be?
See this article for more. I believe this is a huge misunderstanding in this debate when people think HRR is only revenue.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...d-revenue.html

Quote:
HRR is a net number,ie. revenue minus costs. And in the now-expired CBA, teams were able to deduct certain amounts from HRR before the players were given their share.

If you go to Article 50 in the 2005 CBA, you can find all of these direct costs. While sources were reluctant to provide exact numbers, it appears the deducted amounts (yes, the jet fuel and massages) were getting closer and closer to the maximums -- probably hitting them --during recent seasons.

Mr. Fancy Pants is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 10:44 PM
  #727
Pepper
Registered User
 
Pepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,525
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Fancy Pants View Post
HRR is not total revenue without costs. For many items the owners are allowed to deduct their expenses so to say the owners need to pay all the costs out of their HRR share is misleading.
Owners can deduct SOME costs but the MAJORITY of costs can't be deducted under the last CBA. Namely travel, insurance, medical, hotels, equipment, off-ice staff etc.

A huge majority of the costs can NOT be deducted from HRR.

Pepper is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 11:08 PM
  #728
Mr. Fancy Pants
Registered User
 
Mr. Fancy Pants's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Gifu
Country: Japan
Posts: 367
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post


Owners can deduct SOME costs but the MAJORITY of costs can't be deducted under the last CBA. Namely travel, insurance, medical, hotels, equipment, off-ice staff etc.

A huge majority of the costs can NOT be deducted from HRR.
They can deduct any direct costs to revenue-generating activity. From 50.1a:

Quote:
"Direct Costs" shall mean any costs, including fixed and variable costs, attributable to a revenue-generating activity. For example, the salary of an individual employed by a Club or Club Affiliated Entity whose duties contribute to revenue activities specified in this Article 50 may be apportioned among such revenue activities specified in this Article 50 as a Direct Cost to the extent such netting of Direct Costs is permitted, except that no portion of the salary of an individual who, in the ordinary course, works on any non-revenue generating activity of a Club or Club AffiliatedEntity, as defined herein, may be included as a Direct Cost.
Elliotte Friedman's article mentions about jet fuel and massages being deductible, but I can't find that in the CBA text. It does say for pre-season games that "insurance costs, immigration costs, arena rent, team travel and lodging costs" can be deducted but no mention for regular season and playoffs.

Mr. Fancy Pants is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 11:10 PM
  #729
Riptide
Registered User
 
Riptide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Yukon
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,867
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Some Other Flame View Post
In that case, the PA would also get a say in relocation and future expansion, a slice of all expansion+relocation fees, and all the other stuff the owners have no desire to share.

Or does partnership only fit the areas in which you want it too?
I'm pretty sure the owners would be more than happy to share that money if the money going to the players only happens after their operating costs and expenses have been deducted (ie around 30% of current HRR to the PA).

__________________
I've been looking for trouble... but trouble hasn't been cooperating!
Riptide is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 11:13 PM
  #730
Riptide
Registered User
 
Riptide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Yukon
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,867
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Fancy Pants View Post
HRR is not total revenue without costs. For many items the owners are allowed to deduct their expenses so to say the owners need to pay all the costs out of their HRR share is misleading.
It's been said before that the expenses the NHL can deduct are very few and far between. Someone else will have to pull up the part of the CBA that covers this... but it's pretty specific about what can be deducted - and it ain't much.

Riptide is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 11:20 PM
  #731
pepty
Let's win it all
 
pepty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 12,157
vCash: 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
If the owners get what they want then the clock starts ticking on the next lockout. The only way another lockout is avoided is if the players make this lockout hurt really bad. Otherwise lockout will always be the go to strategy for the owners.
Then the players should be happy for a 10 year CBA in that case and and perhaps start negotiating in advance instead of waiting until the season is supposed to start.

pepty is offline  
Old
12-15-2012, 12:03 AM
  #732
kdb209
Global Moderator
 
kdb209's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 15,662
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ONO94 View Post
Your second point misses the whole effect of the disclaimer...the NHLPA disclaims and Fehr is out of the whole shooting match, he is effectively retired.
No. The NHLPA will simply change from being a union and collective bargaining unit to simply a trade association, with Fehr hired as a legal advisor/consultant - similar to what happened with the NFLPA and NPBA (DeMaurice Smith and Billy Hunter remained in charge of the associations).

kdb209 is offline  
Old
12-15-2012, 02:34 AM
  #733
Ernie
Registered User
 
Ernie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,754
vCash: 500
This makes is much harder, from the players perspective, to turf Fehr, imo. They need him now more than ever. Getting rid of him would mean hiring a whole new legal team, something that the players aren't in a position to know how to do.

Fehr has also been smart to install his brother as his right hand man. You won't see him going around the executive director in the way that Saskin did.

Ernie is offline  
Old
12-15-2012, 03:35 AM
  #734
HavlatMach9
Registered User
 
HavlatMach9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,127
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
Getting rid of him would mean hiring a whole new legal team, something that the players aren't in a position to know how to do.
Hmmm? Did I miss something? If anything, the players would probably want to re-hire him after taking the fight to Bettman.

HavlatMach9 is offline  
Old
12-15-2012, 05:57 AM
  #735
Nash
Registered User
 
Nash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,016
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
Hmmm? Did I miss something? If anything, the players would probably want to re-hire him after taking the fight to Bettman.
They should hire Goodenow as co-counsel and just have him sit across from Gary and stare at him with a smirk on his face and never say anything.

Nash is offline  
Old
12-15-2012, 08:15 AM
  #736
Mork
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,055
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Mork
My, Gary Bettman has handled this well. Each labour stoppage seems to get more spectacular and acrimonious than the last one. Now he's certainly moved the league into completely uncharted territory. I'm in awe of how he's finessed labour negotiations throughout his career. It just keeps getting better as he goes!

Mork is offline  
Old
12-15-2012, 09:18 AM
  #737
Davebo*
BeepBeep!
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,042
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mork View Post
My, Gary Bettman has handled this well. Each labour stoppage seems to get more spectacular and acrimonious than the last one. Now he's certainly moved the league into completely uncharted territory. I'm in awe of how he's finessed labour negotiations throughout his career. It just keeps getting better as he goes!
You forgot this --->

Davebo* is offline  
Old
12-15-2012, 10:04 AM
  #738
free0717
Registered User
 
free0717's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Old Bridge, NJ
Posts: 2,327
vCash: 500
I am very angry with the owners. Even if the owners accepted Fehr's last offer, they win. ****** You Bettman

free0717 is offline  
Old
12-15-2012, 10:21 AM
  #739
Sydor25
LA Kings
 
Sydor25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: North Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 21,986
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Sydor25
Quote:
Originally Posted by free0717 View Post
I am very angry with the owners. Even if the owners accepted Fehr's last offer, they win. ****** You Bettman
We don't even know what the NHLPA's last offer was. It could have had a 5% escrow cap in it and that would not be a good deal for the NHL.

Sydor25 is offline  
Old
12-15-2012, 10:33 AM
  #740
pepty
Let's win it all
 
pepty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 12,157
vCash: 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mork View Post
My, Gary Bettman has handled this well. Each labour stoppage seems to get more spectacular and acrimonious than the last one. Now he's certainly moved the league into completely uncharted territory. I'm in awe of how he's finessed labour negotiations throughout his career. It just keeps getting better as he goes!
This is likely where Fehr has been headed all along, it doesn't matter who the commissioner is or what the offer was.He was brought in by the hardliners who ousted Kelly in the middle of the night just so that they could have this kind of drama to "avenge" their last go round.

That most of the players likely just wanted a good deal and would have been happy to go with the NHL October offer is just too bad for them. They are just along for the ride. The Fehrs seemed intent on heading off any move toward a negotiated agreement and concentrated on spin to keep the players in line..

Fehr didn't come back for a last hurrah just to make a deal and then walk off into the sunset. .

pepty is offline  
Old
12-15-2012, 10:43 AM
  #741
JAX
Registered User
 
JAX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Sault Ste. Marie
Country: Canada
Posts: 891
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepty View Post
This is likely where Fehr has been headed all along, it doesn't matter who the commissioner is or what the offer was.He was brought in by the hardliners who ousted Kelly in the middle of the night just so that they could have this kind of drama to "avenge" their last go round.

That most of the players likely just wanted a good deal and would have been happy to go with the NHL October offer is just too bad for them. They are just along for the ride. The Fehrs seemed intent on heading off any move toward a negotiated agreement and concentrated on spin to keep the players in line..

Fehr didn't come back for a last hurrah just to make a deal and then walk off into the sunset. .


Yep, that's why he didn't even negotiate off the Oct. offer of an 82 game schedule, that would have been to easy. Even when Bettman thought he pulled the carpet out from Fehr by letting the owners and players negotiate a deal, they were getting to close for comfort so Fehr walked in the room with a grenade in his hand and hand on the pin. He looked around with a smirk on his face pulled the pin droppped the grenade and walked away.

JAX is offline  
Old
12-15-2012, 11:41 AM
  #742
vorky
@vorkywh24
 
vorky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 7,946
vCash: 500
I dont get it.. it is possible NHL to be without draft etc, so without CBA? Can this become reality?

vorky is online now  
Old
12-15-2012, 11:45 AM
  #743
vorky
@vorkywh24
 
vorky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 7,946
vCash: 500
Quote:
The league would be nice to come back with a 24 team league,
it is possible/real?

vorky is online now  
Old
12-15-2012, 12:06 PM
  #744
Melrose Munch
Registered User
 
Melrose Munch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 17,775
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
it is possible/real?
If this happens, then JAX is right because the current incarnation of the NHL is all but over.

Melrose Munch is offline  
Old
12-15-2012, 12:37 PM
  #745
ottawah
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,045
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I dont get it.. it is possible NHL to be without draft etc, so without CBA? Can this become reality?
Absolutely. It has been that way for more of its existence than without.

But this should scare the players. The NHL is looking of course to not allow the waiver, but .....

Perhaps most interesting is a request made by the NHL that says if the judgment rules that a disclaimer of interest or decertification by the NHLPA is ultimately found to be valid, then all standard player contracts signed under the previous CBA would be void and unenforceable.

“In the absence of a valid CBA or collective bargaining relationship, the provisions of the NHL SPCs will no longer have any force of effect,” the lawsuit reads.



This would probably be the worst case scenario for the players IMHO. Everything great about their contracts is in there. They will lose a lot if thats the case.

The top 5, 10 percent of the league will make out like bandits, the rest of the 90% is likely to get shafted.

ottawah is offline  
Old
12-15-2012, 12:38 PM
  #746
RedWingsNow*
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,340
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
This makes is much harder, from the players perspective, to turf Fehr, imo. They need him now more than ever. Getting rid of him would mean hiring a whole new legal team, something that the players aren't in a position to know how to do.

Fehr has also been smart to install his brother as his right hand man. You won't see him going around the executive director in the way that Saskin did.
From the players' perspective, it would be stupid to turf Fehr.

The only people who want Fehr turfed are the owners and the HFboards posters who take the side of the owners.

Listening to those guys about what's "best for the players" is like listening to Rush Limbaugh about "what's best for Democrats"

RedWingsNow* is offline  
Old
12-15-2012, 12:40 PM
  #747
Model62
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,563
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
Absolutely. It has been that way for more of its existence than without.

But this should scare the players. The NHL is looking of course to not allow the waiver, but .....

Perhaps most interesting is a request made by the NHL that says if the judgment rules that a disclaimer of interest or decertification by the NHLPA is ultimately found to be valid, then all standard player contracts signed under the previous CBA would be void and unenforceable.

“In the absence of a valid CBA or collective bargaining relationship, the provisions of the NHL SPCs will no longer have any force of effect,” the lawsuit reads.



This would probably be the worst case scenario for the players IMHO. Everything great about their contracts is in there. They will lose a lot if thats the case.

The top 5, 10 percent of the league will make out like bandits, the rest of the 90% is likely to get shafted.
This cuts both ways. Small Market clubs would be crushed.

It's nuclear brinkmanship, from both sides.

Model62 is offline  
Old
12-15-2012, 12:40 PM
  #748
19Yzerman19
Registered User
 
19Yzerman19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Country: United States
Posts: 1,799
vCash: 1088
Quote:
Originally Posted by free0717 View Post
I am very angry with the owners. Even if the owners accepted Fehr's last offer, they win. ****** You Bettman
I am very angry with the players. Even if the players accepted Bettman's last offer, they win. ****** You NHLPA


see how that works?

19Yzerman19 is offline  
Old
12-15-2012, 12:41 PM
  #749
Greschner4
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 755
vCash: 500
How would players be worse off in a freer market? They were getting 74% of revenues in the freer market of the early 2000s.

Getting rid of the cap and getting their percentage back up there makes the court fight well worthwhile.

Greschner4 is offline  
Old
12-15-2012, 12:43 PM
  #750
RedWingsNow*
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,340
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAX View Post
[/B]

Yep, that's why he didn't even negotiate off the Oct. offer of an 82 game schedule, that would have been to easy. Even when Bettman thought he pulled the carpet out from Fehr by letting the owners and players negotiate a deal, they were getting to close for comfort so Fehr walked in the room with a grenade in his hand and hand on the pin. He looked around with a smirk on his face pulled the pin droppped the grenade and walked away.
LOL.

What a load.

The PA hired Fehr because the PA didn't want to bullied into another CBA.

You can argue whether or not the last CBA was good or bad for the PA all you want. But the PA felt they got bent over. So they went out and hired Fehr.

It's not hard to figure out.

The owners showed they're willing to lockout the PA for a season. The PA went out and hired someone willing to go toe-to-toe with the owners.

So stop with your one-sided crap about Fehr.

RedWingsNow* is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:03 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2017 All Rights Reserved.