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Lockout IV: One likes to believe in the freedom of hockey (Moderated: see post #2)

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Old
12-09-2012, 02:07 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
He's talking about the 24% rollback that the NHLPA proposed to avoid a salary cap. The 24% rollback stayed in the NHL offers with the salary cap.
Before the 24% rollback, they had offered something less, maybe 7-12%? The NHL said thanks, we'll take it as well as a salary cap. The PA came back with the 24% to give the owners a fresh start, in lieu of cap. The league responded with we'll take it as well as a a salary cap. It all come full circle.

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12-09-2012, 02:09 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
He's referring to the talking point that "But Gary took 24% rollback from a previous NHLPA offer and put it in the final CBA".

What's lost in that talking point is that a rollback was going to happen one way or another and that 24% rollback was probably teh better way to do it. PA supporters seem to like to pretend the rollback was some sort of bonus. It wasn't. The NHL would not have agreed to any CBA without a rollback, either through a direct one (such as the 24%) or through massive escrow payments.
What's even more lost this discussion is that when you have the hammer, you can get away with grabbing the 24% rollback after you beat the union.

Fehr doesn't have the hammer here. He has a lollipop. He can't yoink stuff from NHL without them pushing back.

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12-09-2012, 02:12 PM
  #153
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Got it. I'm not sure what that has to do with the fact that BOTH sides are being disingenuous to the fans and media, which was the only point I chose to make.
I think Bettman knows they are much closer than he is letting on. Keep in mind games are still only cancelled through this Friday. We all know they're not playing on Sat, even if this resolves itself today.

It's an ugly game of back and forth and he said, she said. NHL needs to drop a FINAL date and issue a "BEST" offer b/c they keep bluffing and it's being called over and over. If they tried to negotiate half as much as they are trying to have Fehr removed, this would be done.

The NHL on the other hand, needs to be more transparent with the league and willing to close this tomorrow and not the last minute - when they know their best deal will be offered.

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12-09-2012, 02:28 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
He's referring to the talking point that "But Gary took 24% rollback from a previous NHLPA offer and put it in the final CBA".

What's lost in that talking point is that a rollback was going to happen one way or another and that 24% rollback was probably teh better way to do it. PA supporters seem to like to pretend the rollback was some sort of bonus. It wasn't. The NHL would not have agreed to any CBA without a rollback, either through a direct one (such as the 24%) or through massive escrow payments.
Thanks for this. I constantly see how during the last negotiation the PA offered a cap AND 24% rollback, and I wondered how they weren't tied together.

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12-09-2012, 02:33 PM
  #155
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Thanks for this. I constantly see how during the last negotiation the PA offered a cap AND 24% rollback, and I wondered how they weren't tied together.
The NHLPA originally offered the 24% rollback as a massive bribe to avoid the cap altogether.

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12-09-2012, 02:41 PM
  #156
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Wasn't the rollback effectively necessary to get teams under the cap anyways?

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12-09-2012, 03:06 PM
  #157
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Ah...
Ok
But if Crosby retires early to "circumvent the cap" then those circumvention years are considered into the future cap, too, according to the PA proposal.
So you if you get a way with a few years of cap circumvention, you'll pay for it later.
Not unless something changed in one of the offers last week (I didn't watch Fehr's PC, so I do not know). In the full offer the PA presented in Nov, it would only apply to new contracts going forward.

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12-09-2012, 03:11 PM
  #158
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Not unless something changed in one of the offers last week (I didn't watch Fehr's PC, so I do not know). In the full offer the PA presented in Nov, it would only apply to new contracts going forward.
New contracts that were 9+ years in length. Now that the PA has proposed an 8 year cap in contract length, there's a good chance this aspect of their previous proposal was no longer included.

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12-09-2012, 03:13 PM
  #159
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If both sides are serious about cap circumvention, all they need to do is apply the 35+ rule to every contract regardless of age, and make the rule retroactive. The incentive for teams to sign "retirement" contracts is that all those years at the end are so low salary that the player might as well retire rather than continue playing until age 42 or whatever. By retiring early, their cap hit comes off the table. So a contract that's, say, $10m, $10m, $10m, $1m, $1m, $1m has a total nominal cost of $33 million, but if the player retires after 3 years the team only feels a total cap hit of $16.5m for a contract that cost $30m in salary. If the cap hit can't be eliminated by player retirement, then the team will feel the full $33 million in cap hit over the length of the entire contract.
Yep. I would absolutely love to see that happen. Allow some leeway for career ending injuries (Savards).

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12-09-2012, 03:19 PM
  #160
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I agree. The players that think they are superstars, but in reality are just very good players, are going to get less money.

Interesting quandry for some GMs will be is it better to have 3 or 4 very good players, or 1 superstar?
I'd rather have several very good players than 1 superstar. If I was Pittsburgh's GM, I'd trade Malkin for a couple young very good players and prospects/picks. But then it's easy... they already have Crosby. If they only had 1 superstar, I'd retain the superstar and build around him.

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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I think Bettman knows they are much closer than he is letting on. Keep in mind games are still only cancelled through this Friday. We all know they're not playing on Sat, even if this resolves itself today.

It's an ugly game of back and forth and he said, she said. NHL needs to drop a FINAL date and issue a "BEST" offer b/c they keep bluffing and it's being called over and over. If they tried to negotiate half as much as they are trying to have Fehr removed, this would be done.

The NHL on the other hand, needs to be more transparent with the league and willing to close this tomorrow and not the last minute - when they know their best deal will be offered.
I believe you mean NHLPA?

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12-09-2012, 04:17 PM
  #161
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Revenue sharing is too artificial. This removes the responsibility of the poorer teams to make a profit. Instead, teams in weak markets like Phoenix and Anaheim should fly in fans from Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, and New York. Bring the markets to the teams. Merchandising in those markets will flourish, too.
Revenue sharing recognizing the fact that some markets are ludicrously profitable with very little effort, such as Toronto or New York, whereas some markets may be almost entirely unprofitable no matter how much money, time and effort are sunk into them, such as Phoenix.

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12-09-2012, 04:49 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
I'd rather have several very good players than 1 superstar. If I was Pittsburgh's GM, I'd trade Malkin for a couple young very good players and prospects/picks. But then it's easy... they already have Crosby. If they only had 1 superstar, I'd retain the superstar and build around him.



I believe you mean NHLPA?
Yes I did mean the NHLPA, sorry. It's just stupid b/c the NHL won't offer their best deal, and the PA isn't really negotiating b/c they know their best deal won't come until the last minute. That being said, we all knew this was going to run to Dec/Jan.

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12-09-2012, 06:27 PM
  #163
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Yep. I would absolutely love to see that happen. Allow some leeway for career ending injuries (Savards).
How would making every contract in the league subject to the rules of a 35+ contract create any flexibility?

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12-09-2012, 06:38 PM
  #164
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The rich clubs, which, if you do the math, won't benefit financially under the 50/50 revenue split (pretty much everything they gain will be paid out in revenue sharing).

Perhaps that's why the NHL asked for so much on contract rights; that was supposed to be their payoff for going along with the lockout.

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12-09-2012, 06:48 PM
  #165
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It's ridiculous for Bettman to say that Fehr doesn't have the interest of the game in mind, when Bettman himself had absolutely no connection to hockey when he became commissioner, and since then has presided over the most disruptions in any major league by a long shot.

What a cynical jackass.

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12-09-2012, 08:07 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
Revenue sharing is too artificial. This removes the responsibility of the poorer teams to make a profit. Instead, teams in weak markets like Phoenix and Anaheim should fly in fans from Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, and New York. Bring the markets to the teams. Merchandising in those markets will flourish, too.
It mind-boggling that in a league with teams selling out every games at very high prices and teams that can't even give away tickets both group get to play 41 home games. Cut 10 home games from the bottom fifteen earning teams and add them to the top 15. Split the gate from those games 40/40/20. 40% to the visiting teams 40% to the home teams and 20% to league wide revenue sharing or maybe to a slush fund to finance the contraction of the really hopeless cases.

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12-09-2012, 08:19 PM
  #167
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I am currently watching an interesting show that was on TSN today. It is one of the ESPN 30 For 30 films and this one deals with professional athletes who go broke after their playing careers are over. They spoke not only with former athletes but journalists, financial advisors (including one former NFL player who is not a financial advisor), coaches, etc. and the information provided was really rather illuminating for those of us who don't live in that world and do not understand the reasonable and unavoidable expenses that come with it - and this is especially pertinent for all those here who keep claiming that the NHL players are just spoiled millionaire athletes who don't understand how good they have it making millions for playing a game.

A basic argument that came from everyone participating in this show was that, while we see the contract figures, we do not see that the individual doesn't get anywhere near the figure that we hear about in the media.

One of the first things they mentioned is taxes, and they are a lot more onerous than the rest of us will ever face. They said that, unlike hedge fund managers and the like, player's salaries are not considered capital gains (which are taxed at a far far lower rate) but are considered normal income and that these players are obviously in the highest tax bracket and the more they make the more they pay.

They also said that, in the US, after paying federal income taxes of 30%-40% the players also have to pay state income taxes in every state in which they play even one game during the season because they are considered to have earned income in that state. So just think about how many states these guys play in. On top of that they also have to pay taxes in any other country they play in (they said tennis players pay taxes in every single country they play in each year). Now for NFL players that isn't a big deal unless they play in that game in London England that is staged every year now or play in the Bills games in Toronto. But baseball and basketball players have to pay Canadian taxes for the games they play here - both federal and provincial. Those guys play relatively few games here but just think of how much an NHL player would be taxed for all of the games they play in Canada once they have paid both federal and provincial taxes.

Then they also have to pay their agent 3%-5% of their salary - and that is their before tax salary.

There are probably other reasonable expenses as well but I haven't watched any further in the show so have no idea what they might list those as being.

So let's say a US based NHL player is making $1 million on a one year deal. Out of that he pays 30%-40% in federal income tax in the US (Canadian based players likely pay more in federal income tax)). If we take the middle figure and call it 35% that $1 million dollar salary is now down to $650,000. From that, he pays his agent 3%-5% so another $30,000-$50,000. Let's call it $50,000 so that $1 million salary is now at $600,000 per year. From that, the player has to pay state taxes in every state in which he plays throughout the season. I have no idea how much that would be but it is likely a good chunk of cash. Then they have to pay taxes to the Canadian government for anything they earned here and they also have to pay provincial taxes for every province they played in (so five Canadian provinces for NHL players). Those state, Canadian federal, and Canadian provincial taxes must eat up at least another $100,000 per year so that $1 million salary is now down to $500,000. Out of that he will have to pay an accountant and, possibly, a business manager to handle the taxes (there is no way in hell they do their own taxes when they have to pay in so many jurisdictions). He might even need to pay two accountants (one in the US and another in Canada). That eats up another chunk of cash so his salary is now down somewhere in the $450,000 range and, possibly, lower.

Now that $450,000 salary is a very good one, and I am not trying to argue that it isn't, but it is nowhere near the $1 million salary the player started out at. This is just something to keep in mind when people refer to NHL players as spoiled millionaires - there is a massive portion of their salary that they never ever see and they aren't anywhere near as rich as we think they are.

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12-09-2012, 08:29 PM
  #168
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Taxes are high on professional athletes
This is true: players do not take home anywhere near as much as their contracts would have you believe (if you've ever had to file income tax on your own).

But I fail to see how income taxes are a factor in the lockout: the players and their advisors know how much the player actually takes home at the end of the year.


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12-09-2012, 08:48 PM
  #169
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This is true: players do not take home anywhere near as much as their contracts would have you believe (if you've ever had to file income tax on your own).

But I fail to see how income taxes are a factor in the lockout: the players and their advisors know how much the player actually takes home at the end of the year.

It isn't a factor in the lockout except for those, here and elsewhere, who constantly slam the players as being spoiled millionaires who make millions playing a game. I was just trying to demonstrate that they do not make anywhere near the money that we, the fans, hear about when contracts are announced.

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12-09-2012, 08:58 PM
  #170
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It isn't a factor in the lockout except for those, here and elsewhere, who constantly slam the players as being spoiled millionaires who make millions playing a game. I was just trying to demonstrate that they do not make anywhere near the money that we, the fans, hear about when contracts are announced.
And yet, well over 60% are "millionaires". Not saying they are or are not spoiled. Just that most of them have made over a million dollars playing a game. But I do agree slamming a player because of his paycheck is a tired argument.

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12-09-2012, 09:01 PM
  #171
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...Now that $450,000 salary is a very good one, and I am not trying to argue that it isn't, but it is nowhere near the $1 million salary the player started out at.
Yes, and thats not even the whole story. Your looking at having to pay taxes in multiple jurisdictions, municipal & state/provincial in a lot of places, in addition to federal taxes, in both Canada & the US. Its complicated / complex. At the end of the day, sure enough the player / entertainer is left with a nice chunk of change, but nowhere near the announced contract value. Over a year in most cases, a lot more than most people net in 10 or 20; a lifetime depending on where they sit on the Totem Pole. And though it might sound insane, burning through $300K-$400K in a year isnt that hard to do.

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12-09-2012, 09:06 PM
  #172
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Yes, and thats not even the whole story. Your looking at having to pay taxes in multiple jurisdictions, municipal & state/provincial in a lot of places, in addition to federal taxes, in both Canada & the US. Its complicated / complex. At the end of the day, sure enough the player / entertainer is left with a nice chunk of change, but nowhere near the announced contract value. Over a year in most cases, a lot more than most people net in 10 or 20; a lifetime depending on where they sit on the Totem Pole. And though it might sound insane, burning through $300K-$400K in a year isnt that hard to do.


Someone making say $40,000 per year would pay significantly less in taxes (especially because they are only likely to pay taxes in one jurisdiction) and would make in 10-15 years what a $1 million per year athlete makes depending on much the athlete actually brings home.

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12-09-2012, 09:09 PM
  #173
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And yet, well over 60% are "millionaires". Not saying they are or are not spoiled. Just that most of them have made over a million dollars playing a game. But I do agree slamming a player because of his paycheck is a tired argument.
But how long does it take them to actually become millionaires? It certainly isn't instant for the majority of them.

And is it really 'a game' when you consider how much actual work goes into getting to that level and staying at that level? We also have to keep in mind how short the average career is, what the average player makes, and the physical price they pay during that career (and that is not to say that others do not pay a heavy physical price as well). This isn't a game at that level, it is a business and for the players it is a job. I think looking at it as 'a game' is overly simplistic.

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12-09-2012, 09:47 PM
  #174
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I am currently watching an interesting show that was on TSN today. It is one of the ESPN 30 For 30 films and this one deals with professional athletes who go broke after their playing careers are over. They spoke not only with former athletes but journalists, financial advisors (including one former NFL player who is not a financial advisor), coaches, etc. and the information provided was really rather illuminating for those of us who don't live in that world and do not understand the reasonable and unavoidable expenses that come with it - and this is especially pertinent for all those here who keep claiming that the NHL players are just spoiled millionaire athletes who don't understand how good they have it making millions for playing a game.

A basic argument that came from everyone participating in this show was that, while we see the contract figures, we do not see that the individual doesn't get anywhere near the figure that we hear about in the media.

One of the first things they mentioned is taxes, and they are a lot more onerous than the rest of us will ever face. They said that, unlike hedge fund managers and the like, player's salaries are not considered capital gains (which are taxed at a far far lower rate) but are considered normal income and that these players are obviously in the highest tax bracket and the more they make the more they pay.

They also said that, in the US, after paying federal income taxes of 30%-40% the players also have to pay state income taxes in every state in which they play even one game during the season because they are considered to have earned income in that state. So just think about how many states these guys play in. On top of that they also have to pay taxes in any other country they play in (they said tennis players pay taxes in every single country they play in each year). Now for NFL players that isn't a big deal unless they play in that game in London England that is staged every year now or play in the Bills games in Toronto. But baseball and basketball players have to pay Canadian taxes for the games they play here - both federal and provincial. Those guys play relatively few games here but just think of how much an NHL player would be taxed for all of the games they play in Canada once they have paid both federal and provincial taxes.

Then they also have to pay their agent 3%-5% of their salary - and that is their before tax salary.

There are probably other reasonable expenses as well but I haven't watched any further in the show so have no idea what they might list those as being.

So let's say a US based NHL player is making $1 million on a one year deal. Out of that he pays 30%-40% in federal income tax in the US (Canadian based players likely pay more in federal income tax)). If we take the middle figure and call it 35% that $1 million dollar salary is now down to $650,000. From that, he pays his agent 3%-5% so another $30,000-$50,000. Let's call it $50,000 so that $1 million salary is now at $600,000 per year. From that, the player has to pay state taxes in every state in which he plays throughout the season. I have no idea how much that would be but it is likely a good chunk of cash. Then they have to pay taxes to the Canadian government for anything they earned here and they also have to pay provincial taxes for every province they played in (so five Canadian provinces for NHL players). Those state, Canadian federal, and Canadian provincial taxes must eat up at least another $100,000 per year so that $1 million salary is now down to $500,000. Out of that he will have to pay an accountant and, possibly, a business manager to handle the taxes (there is no way in hell they do their own taxes when they have to pay in so many jurisdictions). He might even need to pay two accountants (one in the US and another in Canada). That eats up another chunk of cash so his salary is now down somewhere in the $450,000 range and, possibly, lower.

Now that $450,000 salary is a very good one, and I am not trying to argue that it isn't, but it is nowhere near the $1 million salary the player started out at. This is just something to keep in mind when people refer to NHL players as spoiled millionaires - there is a massive portion of their salary that they never ever see and they aren't anywhere near as rich as we think they are.
Please stop it, this does nothing to to advance the conversation. Players are rich, owners are much more rich, both pay taxes -well most owners don't on the hockey side but whatever. The labor-mgmt problem is simply about how to split up the pie.

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12-09-2012, 09:52 PM
  #175
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But how long does it take them to actually become millionaires? It certainly isn't instant for the majority of them.

And is it really 'a game' when you consider how much actual work goes into getting to that level and staying at that level? We also have to keep in mind how short the average career is, what the average player makes, and the physical price they pay during that career (and that is not to say that others do not pay a heavy physical price as well). This isn't a game at that level, it is a business and for the players it is a job. I think looking at it as 'a game' is overly simplistic.
Everyone has opinions and I certainly respect yours.

Yes, all things considered, they are still playing a game IMO. But this is vering off into a different direction from the topic.

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