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NHL Lockout XXV: New car caviar four star daydream, think I'll buy me a hockey team

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Old
12-10-2012, 11:16 AM
  #476
vanwest
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
IMHO there is only a chance CBA length goes down only if make whole goes down. Those two things are attached as per the NHL. As the NHL said "no cherry pickin'." And from what I understand the CBA length is less of a concern to the players than it is to Fehr. But Fehr cherry picked so here we sit.

At least that's how I see it.
I don't think the CBA length is the hill the NHL dies on. The contract issues seem to be the big issue for them. The issues are pretty easy to solve if both sides approach this reasonably and in the big scheme of things don't cost the owners that much. They need to eliminate cap circumventing deals. Maybe they should run it by the capologists each of the owners hire as I'm sure those people will be scouring any CBA for loopholes they can exploit. Bettman and crew did a poor job of drafting the last go round. The type of contracts handed out were entirely predictable and have led in part to the mess we are in.

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12-10-2012, 11:16 AM
  #477
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Can you provide the actual question and answer? I'm curious.
MacLean said something (and I'm paraphrasing) like:

"Kevin, you've been in every negotiation session so please correct me if I'm incorrect... but both sides claim to want 50-50 and the players say they will get to 50-50... but you also asked for 393mil in the make whole provision and the owners gave 300... that puts you guys over 55% in the first year and 54% in the second year... or is the make whole provision not tied to the HRR split?"

His response was "Well you have to understand... I'm a hockey player for a living... so some of the technical information like that is going to be lost on me..."

MacLean says "Well you're a smart guy... you're a Princeton grad"

Westgarth: "Thanks for that. Well it just comes down to this... the owners don't seem like they want to negotiate at certain parts and it's a give and take process.." and so on and so forth.

Flew right over his head.

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12-10-2012, 11:17 AM
  #478
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Players were ready to sign, but Fehr told them to hold out for more.
And it will be this way until the 2013 season starts...

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12-10-2012, 11:17 AM
  #479
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
Players were ready to sign, but Fehr told them to hold out for more.
I'm not buying that.

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12-10-2012, 11:17 AM
  #480
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Every pa counter proposal has a poison pill in it the league will reject. Cap on escrow, ... I'm convinced Fehr wants a court case, not an agreement.

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12-10-2012, 11:18 AM
  #481
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Originally Posted by Tra La La View Post
Every pa counter proposal has a poison pill in it the league will reject. Cap on escrow, ... I'm convinced Fehr wants a court case, not an agreement.
And every NHL offer has a poison pill that the PA will reject. For example, a 5% contract variance is unreasonable and non commercial. Hence the Mexican standoff.

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12-10-2012, 11:19 AM
  #482
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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
I don't think we'll be seeing any more new faces for the owners. And if we do, I highly doubt Molson will be there. Several Habs fans have said that Molson has gone on record saying that he doesn't want to get involved in the negotiation process.

My guess is that the players are stuck with Jacobs (definitely) and possibly the other 3 that have been at the table (and who they also don't like).
Yayyyy..

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12-10-2012, 11:21 AM
  #483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njdevil26 View Post
MacLean said something (and I'm paraphrasing) like:

"Kevin, you've been in every negotiation session so please correct me if I'm incorrect... but both sides claim to want 50-50 and the players say they will get to 50-50... but you also asked for 393mil in the make whole provision and the owners gave 300... that puts you guys over 55% in the first year and 54% in the second year... or is the make whole provision not tied to the HRR split?"

His response was "Well you have to understand... I'm a hockey player for a living... so some of the technical information like that is going to be lost on me..."

MacLean says "Well you're a smart guy... you're a Princeton grad"

Westgarth: "Thanks for that. Well it just comes down to this... the owners don't seem like they want to negotiate at certain parts and it's a give and take process.." and so on and so forth.

Flew right over his head.
I need to see that to believe it.

****ing pathetic.

Edit: And this is what I don't understand about seeing guys like Bisonnette going on and on about the educational pedigree of the guys in the room; you can graduate from Cat and Dog studies at Harvard... you're still a Cat and Dog major. Doesn't mean you know the first bloody thing about economics or how negotiations work.

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12-10-2012, 11:21 AM
  #484
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
I don't think the CBA length is the hill the NHL dies on. The contract issues seem to be the big issue for them. The issues are pretty easy to solve if both sides approach this reasonably and in the big scheme of things don't cost the owners that much. They need to eliminate cap circumventing deals. Maybe they should run it by the capologists each of the owners hire as I'm sure those people will be scouring any CBA for loopholes they can exploit. Bettman and crew did a poor job of drafting the last go round. The type of contracts handed out were entirely predictable and have led in part to the mess we are in.
I don't think it's the hill they die on either - that's the contract length but still the CBA term and make whole are a package or part of a package. Bettman could not have made that any plainer.

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12-10-2012, 11:24 AM
  #485
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Everybody needs to give this article a read:

Stop putting the blame on the owners
You mean the same owners who signed contracts one day and then turned around the very next day and claimed they couldn't afford them and wouldn't be paying the full value of those contracts?

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12-10-2012, 11:25 AM
  #486
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
I don't think it's the hill they die on either - that's the contract length but still the CBA term and make whole are a package or part of a package. Bettman could not have made that any plainer.
I understand that is what Bettman is saying is the NHL's position. He's entilted to say that and the PA is entitled to reject it. Until they negotiate on the outstanding issues there will be no deal. I could end up being wrong but my bet is that both parties will move off of their current positions and meeet somewhere on the middle. Right now to me this whole process looks like a war when a ceasefire is imminent and both sides are trying to grab as much land as possible before the actual truce.

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12-10-2012, 11:26 AM
  #487
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You mean the same owners who signed contracts one day and then turned around the very next day and claimed they couldn't afford them and wouldn't be paying the full value of those contracts?
And the same owners who hire capologists who will be scouring any new CBA for loopholes to take advantage of to avoid the cap.

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12-10-2012, 11:26 AM
  #488
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I'm not buying that.
Plenty of players probably want to get to work even though the majority of the players in the limelight don't.

It is a business as stated, but it's a business they have created pushing each other to the brink, players these past couple decades, and the owners before that.

This point in time they're getting close to equal partners.

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12-10-2012, 11:27 AM
  #489
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
Plenty of player probably want to get to work even though the majority of the players in the limelight don't.

It is a business as stated, but it's a business they have created pushing each other to the brink, players these past couple decades, and the owners before that.

This point in time they're getting close to equal partners.
That's your opinion. I've seen no evidence of either player or owner support waning.

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12-10-2012, 11:27 AM
  #490
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Originally Posted by wilty00 View Post
I need to see that to believe it.

****ing pathetic.

Edit: And this is what I don't understand about seeing guys like Bisonnette going on and on about the educational pedigree of the guys in the room; you can graduate from Cat and Dog studies at Harvard... you're still a Cat and Dog major. Doesn't mean you know the first bloody thing about economics or how negotiations work.
Yeah not very encouraging when an ivy league grad player and someone who is in almost every negotiating session is asked a general question about possibly the most important aspect of the whole CBA battle and he freezes and gives a babbling disconnected answer.

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12-10-2012, 11:28 AM
  #491
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Fehr will take them to hell and back to gain 10 dollars, while losing 50 dollars.
The logic is mind blasting.

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12-10-2012, 11:28 AM
  #492
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Originally Posted by wilty00 View Post
I need to see that to believe it.

****ing pathetic.

Edit: And this is what I don't understand about seeing guys like Bisonnette going on and on about the educational pedigree of the guys in the room; you can graduate from Cat and Dog studies at Harvard... you're still a Cat and Dog major. Doesn't mean you know the first bloody thing about economics or how negotiations work.
"Most students who got into Princeton had GPAs close to a 4.0, SAT scores (CR+M+W) above 2100, and ACT composite scores above 30. Also realize that a lot of red dots are hidden beneath the blue and green in the upper right corner of the graph -- many students with a 4.0 GPA and extremely high standardized test scores get rejected from Princeton".

http://collegeapps.about.com/od/GPA-...pa-sat-act.htm

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12-10-2012, 11:28 AM
  #493
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Originally Posted by Tra La La View Post
Every pa counter proposal has a poison pill in it the league will reject. Cap on escrow, ... I'm convinced Fehr wants a court case, not an agreement.
He is a litigator and not a very good negotiator.

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12-10-2012, 11:30 AM
  #494
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He is a litigator and not a very good negotiator.
And a fantastic instigator.

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12-10-2012, 11:31 AM
  #495
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That's your opinion. I've seen no evidence of either player or owner support waning.
Then you're not reading enough.

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12-10-2012, 11:31 AM
  #496
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Players were ready to sign, but Fehr told them to hold out for more.
That's not true. It was never reported that the players were ready to sign. It was only reported that Fehr said that he thinks they can get more out of the league.

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12-10-2012, 11:31 AM
  #497
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Then you're not reading enough.
Ok, point me to an article that says over 375 of 750 players want to accept the current deal.

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12-10-2012, 11:32 AM
  #498
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Originally Posted by Henriks Broadway Hat View Post
Are they really going to lose a season over CBA length and contract limits? If they do, then congratulations to both sides, as they would become he stupidest humans in history.

9 year CBA with PA opt out at 7 (though I'd prefer mutual opt out)

Contract limits of 6 years to UFA's, 8 years for your DRAFTED players (no sign and trades)

Play hockey

Profit.

Actually, as a fan, if the length of the next CBA doesn't approach 10 years, I really don't see the point of the whole process. If all of this nonsense is just going to be repeated like some lame leap year tradition, they can have the stupid and league and do what they will.

From my point of view, the CBA should be 10 years with no opt out, the split should be 50/50 and contracts should be no more than 8 years, with some preference given to signing your own players. Now, I would define that as someone who have been in your organization 3 years or more to avoid the trade and signs and maybe also include a clause to stop sign and trades--maybe say if they are traded within a year of the contract, the years bump down.

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12-10-2012, 11:32 AM
  #499
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
"Most students who got into Princeton had GPAs close to a 4.0, SAT scores (CR+M+W) above 2100, and ACT composite scores above 30. Also realize that a lot of red dots are hidden beneath the blue and green in the upper right corner of the graph -- many students with a 4.0 GPA and extremely high standardized test scores get rejected from Princeton".

http://collegeapps.about.com/od/GPA-...pa-sat-act.htm
I went to Albright College in Reading PA which is a pretty good school... I checked out Princeton at "college night" at the high school. They told me their average SAT score is 1470. (This was in 2004 before the test got changed). I just laughed and left the room.

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12-10-2012, 11:33 AM
  #500
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
He is a litigator and not a very good negotiator.
Are you talking about Bettman or Fehr.

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