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Lockout Discussion Thread 4.0

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Old
12-16-2012, 06:09 PM
  #451
Drydenwasthebest
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
guess you forgot all those Caps / Pens games where the NHL presented it as OV vs Crosby...
Yeah, those will be classic if OV continues to degrade while Crosby remains a star over the next decade...

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12-16-2012, 06:14 PM
  #452
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Yeah, those will be classic if OV continues to degrade while Crosby remains a star over the next decade...
That would be sad, if Ovechkin keeps picking doughnuts over greatness, his choice though.

Either way there will be Giroux and Stamkos (and Galchenyuk !). Did you watch the Philadelphia-Pittsburgh series this year? That was epic.

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12-16-2012, 06:31 PM
  #453
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
That would be sad, if Ovechkin keeps picking doughnuts over greatness, his choice though.

Either way there will be Giroux and Stamkos (and Galchenyuk !). Did you watch the Philadelphia-Pittsburgh series this year? That was epic.
Epic..that's one way to put it. Horrible is another. Some of the worst PO hockey I've seen in a while.
Not talking about the rivalry, that was there, but pee-wee AAA players could have scored against Fleury or Bryz. It was very embarrassing.
Really, it was bad..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Yes.

Owners want 50% of HRR. That is half.

Players want 50% of HRR + make whole. That is more than half.

Haven't you at least been following the very lockout you have been commenting on?
Well, the problem comes from him thinking 50% of HRR isn't fair.

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12-16-2012, 06:38 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by Corky View Post
Do not take the fact that the owners signed these ridiculous contract a sign that they endorse them. The owners are in a situation where they had to give in if they wanted to attract star players. It's a sport version of game theory, the party who cheats gets the prize.

In regards to the league accepting these contracts, i agree with you that this was a mistake but this does not matter, it's in the past. You also have to take into account that there are things we do not know as fans, I'm certain there was a reason for the league accepting these contracts.

What matters now is finding a system that prevents the exploitation of loopholes.
Are you really suggesting that the owners are irresponsible?

Well if this is the case we agree.

These same owners were prepared to lose a year in 2004/5 for a system that would provide economic certainty and competitive balance, then spent the next seven years making a mockery of it.

This mess was preventable by the very same people that are now holding fans and players hostage with a lockout, once again the owners.

Long term contracts, while definitely have an increased risk, are not a problem unless the purpose of them is to circumvent the cap. This was exactly what was intended and supported by individual owners, even when these owners were claiming poor.

Every business wants to tilt the playing field in its favour, but it doesn't do so by intentionally following practices that may bankrupt its partners or itself. This is a mode of operation only the NHL practices.

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Old
12-16-2012, 07:00 PM
  #455
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Epic..that's one way to put it. Horrible is another. Some of the worst PO hockey I've seen in a while.
Not talking about the rivalry, that was there, but pee-wee AAA players could have scored against Fleury or Bryz. It was very embarrassing.
Really, it was bad..
Different folks, different strokes.

Personally I liked the strong rivalry and the high scoring. You can mock Bryz and Fleury but those are too high-powered offensive teams throughout the season against all sorts of goalies. We would not have seen 10-4 against good goalies as you point out but we would have seen 6-3. The overall imagery would be the same for 6-3 as it would be for 10-4.

There were some other really good series. Washington-Boston was also excellent. Damn, I miss hockey, really annoyed the owners were more focused on the lockout than on growing the game.

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Old
12-16-2012, 07:01 PM
  #456
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Are you really suggesting that the owners are irresponsible?

Well if this is the case we agree.

These same owners were prepared to lose a year in 2004/5 for a system that would provide economic certainty and competitive balance, then spent the next seven years making a mockery of it.

This mess was preventable by the very same people that are now holding fans and players hostage with a lockout, once again the owners.

Long term contracts, while definitely have an increased risk, are not a problem unless the purpose of them is to circumvent the cap. This was exactly what was intended and supported by individual owners, even when these owners were claiming poor.

Every business wants to tilt the playing field in its favour, but it doesn't do so by intentionally following practices that may bankrupt its partners or itself. This is a mode of operation only the NHL practices.
Absolutely, a lockout every five or six years is completely ridiculous.

I supported the owners in 2005. I don't support them now, as they have better options.

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Old
12-16-2012, 07:01 PM
  #457
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Yes.

Owners want 50% of HRR. That is half.

Players want 50% of HRR + make whole. That is more than half.

Haven't you at least been following the very lockout you have been commenting on?
The debate isn't about 50/50, its about how soon they get there.

The NHL agrees that 50/50 immediately needs some adjustment by offering "make whole".

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12-16-2012, 07:40 PM
  #458
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Every business wants to tilt the playing field in its favour, but it doesn't do so by intentionally following practices that may bankrupt its partners or itself. This is a mode of operation only the NHL practices.
The other teams are partners when negotiating a CBA and competitors the rest of the time. And giving these ridiculous contracts doesn't bankrupt anyone, it just allows you to get the best players.

Also, let's suppose the owners would have agreed to not give away these types of contract last summer to make a point in preparation for the CBA negotiation. The PA could have sued them for collusion. It was lose-lose from the day the first front-loaded contract was submitted and accepted, unfortunately.

I agree that the owners definitely share a bit of the blame from maximizing this loophole like that, but what's done is done and it now needs to be legally eradicated.

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12-16-2012, 07:47 PM
  #459
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Alot of players are hearing that this might all be resolved by the New Year. They are almost 100% sure there will be a season.

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12-16-2012, 08:07 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by YourBuddy View Post
Alot of players are hearing that this might all be resolved by the New Year. They are almost 100% sure there will be a season.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myron Gaines View Post
I heard the same thing, hope it's true.
Does your source say how it might be resolved?


Last edited by Roulin: 12-16-2012 at 08:27 PM.
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Old
12-16-2012, 08:33 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
That would be sad, if Ovechkin keeps picking doughnuts over greatness, his choice though.

Either way there will be Giroux and Stamkos (and Galchenyuk !). Did you watch the Philadelphia-Pittsburgh series this year? That was epic.
100% agreed! I truly hope Galchenyuk becomes one for the ages. We Habs fans have gone long enough without a top 10 forward.

The Philly/Pens series was truly amazing! Hockey at its best.

Ovechkin can go screw himself, as far as I am concerned.

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Old
12-16-2012, 08:34 PM
  #462
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Just a reminder that the Habs board mods did verify YourBuddy's source and he's supposed to check with the mods before posting any new tidbits.

If all you're going to do is be a dbag about it, you'll just get an infraction.


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Old
12-16-2012, 08:42 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by YourBuddy View Post
Alot of players are hearing that this might all be resolved by the New Year. They are almost 100% sure there will be a season.
Unfortunately, a lot of players are complete morons buying in to whatever Don Fehr tells them, listening to his wild stories of the amazing deal he's going to get for them if they just wait a little bit longer.... even though they've already pissed away nearly a billion dollars in lost wages that, no matter what, they will never, ever get back. Ever.

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Old
12-16-2012, 08:42 PM
  #464
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Just a reminder that the Habs board mods did verify YourBuddy's source and he's supposed to check with the mods before posting any new tidbits.

If all you're going to do is be a dbag about it, you'll just get an infraction.

What did he post here?

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Old
12-16-2012, 08:42 PM
  #465
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Old
12-16-2012, 08:45 PM
  #466
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Different folks, different strokes.

Personally I liked the strong rivalry and the high scoring. You can mock Bryz and Fleury but those are too high-powered offensive teams throughout the season against all sorts of goalies. We would not have seen 10-4 against good goalies as you point out but we would have seen 6-3. The overall imagery would be the same for 6-3 as it would be for 10-4.

There were some other really good series. Washington-Boston was also excellent. Damn, I miss hockey, really annoyed the owners were more focused on the lockout than on growing the game.
I disagree. Fleury allowed 26goals in 6games, and had .834 Sv %, Bryz allowed 37g in 11gp with .887 Sv%. Those are god awful numbers.
The idea that games would still be high scoring versus better goalies doesn't really follow what happened versus NJ. Philly scored 11 goals versus them in 5 games (7 of which came in two games). With the way both Philly and Pittsburgh played in the first round, they would have lost versus any team with decent goaltending.
It was certainly entertaining for a game or two, but then it became quite ridiculous.
I wasn't surprised they lost quickly to Jersey, actually expected it.

Washington and Boston was interesting, but for very different reason. Hunter had Washington playing like Martin had us playing versus them couple years back.

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Old
12-16-2012, 08:47 PM
  #467
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Unfortunately, a lot of players are complete morons buying in to whatever Don Fehr tells them, listening to his wild stories of the amazing deal he's going to get for them if they just wait a little bit longer.... even though they've already pissed away nearly a billion dollars in lost wages that, no matter what, they will never, ever get back. Ever.

I think that's more than a little naive. The players are giving substantial ground on every single bargaining point. The NHL has already won.

If there is no push back by the PA, two CBAs from now they will be back to the state of servitude that existed in the 50's.

And of course, let's not forget, this is a lockout, not a strike.

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Old
12-16-2012, 08:48 PM
  #468
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Are you really suggesting that the owners are irresponsible?

Well if this is the case we agree.
I don't get the whole "Owners aren't responsible" bullcrap argument. Are they supposed to have a hive mind mentality and act in the best interests of the league and other owners ?

The truth is that the owner group is not homogeneous and to expect them to act is if they were one entity is both simplistic and idiotic.

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Old
12-16-2012, 08:59 PM
  #469
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Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
I think that's more than a little naive. The players are giving substantial ground on every single bargaining point. The NHL has already won.

If there is no push back by the PA, two CBAs from now they will be back to the state of servitude that existed in the 50's.
Well, I hope it's worth all the money they are losing by drawing this out further. Because by my count, if you look at the offer they could have had in October vs today, while the players have made some gains, those gains are offset by the lost wages by a fairly significant margin.

The players talk about the money they'd lose with this new CBA, but don't forget that is hypothetical money. If league revenues continue to increase as they have been doing, the make whole would be enough to cover the 2 years where the HRR split was too low to cover existing contracts.

The players go on about this hypothetical lost money, but don't seem to be too concernred with the actual money they've lost, in real dollars, money that they will NEVER get back again. NEVER. No matter how good the next CBA is, they will NEVER get this money back.

The last CBA offer was for 10 years. Most players will have retired by then, and it is impossible to know the state of the league at that point. It's silly to say the owners will keep trying to get more from the players 10 years from now because almost every owner will have changed, the economic landscape of the league will have changed and both Bettman and Fehr will no longer be around.

Quote:
And of course, let's not forget, this is a lockout, not a strike.
The owners' last offer was very fair. The players continue to stall and refuse to vote on it. This is effectively a strike at this point.

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Old
12-16-2012, 09:05 PM
  #470
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
The owners' last offer was very fair. The players continue to stall and refuse to vote on it. This is effectively a strike at this point.
That offer was pulled off the table.

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Old
12-16-2012, 09:13 PM
  #471
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That offer was pulled off the table.
Now, you're being cute. It was pulled off the table because the players rejected it but you can be damn sure it will be put back on the table if they hint that they are willing to accept it.

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Old
12-16-2012, 09:15 PM
  #472
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Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
I think that's more than a little naive. The players are giving substantial ground on every single bargaining point. The NHL has already won.

If there is no push back by the PA, two CBAs from now they will be back to the state of servitude that existed in the 50's.

And of course, let's not forget, this is a lockout, not a strike.
Back to a state of servitude? If the league grows, their salary grows. It's a partnership between owners and players. No one is getting exploited here.

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Old
12-16-2012, 09:18 PM
  #473
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Now, you're being cute. It was pulled off the table because the players rejected it but you can be damn sure it will be put back on the table if they hint that they are willing to accept it.
I have some doubt about that, specially since that court filing. There was also pressure from some owners to pull the previous offer to this one from the table.

I think the season is over personally. Well I've been thinking that since September eh.

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Old
12-16-2012, 09:18 PM
  #474
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Now, you're being cute. It was pulled off the table because the players rejected it but you can be damn sure it will be put back on the table if they hint that they are willing to accept it.
Calling this a strike because the players didn't accept an offer that would leave them worse off than the previous CBA in every way is ridiculous to start with. The fact that the offer doesn't even exist anymore is just icing on the cake of ridiculousness.

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Old
12-16-2012, 09:27 PM
  #475
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Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
I think that's more than a little naive. The players are giving substantial ground on every single bargaining point. The NHL has already won.

If there is no push back by the PA, two CBAs from now they will be back to the state of servitude that existed in the 50's.

And of course, let's not forget, this is a lockout, not a strike.
Nobody is coming out of this lockout as a victor. This is about cutting losses short, not winning, something the players seem not to understand.
Back when the offer was a 0 make whole with a 12% rollback, even then, the money the players would lose was just about the same than if they pursued and lost the season. They pushed, squeezed more out of the league, but they refused again a pretty decent offer.
The risk of losing a year simply isn't worth it financially. It doesn't change anything and they also haven't shown much care in damaging the league they actually play in.
It's as if they think they're not contributing to the bad reputation the NHL is getting.

I don't see how players playing in a city where fans are tough to come by are happy with this ongoing lockout.
I get a sense that the players think : longer hold out-risk of losing fans-less money coming in for teams-less sponsors-less TV deals = Bad for owners, as opposed to it being bad for everybody. I think a big reason for that is the fact they have guaranteed contracts.
Not sure players are getting the best advice really.

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