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Old
12-21-2012, 06:13 PM
  #751
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I don't care about how much money owners have, as long as it's not in the red. I merely responded to someone else saying owners will lose out. Not as much as the players, that's my point.

Your new league will have player salaries at a fraction of what they are now. BTW, good job on bringing up Savard and Pronger because in other leagues they would be cut. That damn NHL benefit.

Out of curiousity, how do you feel about the evander kane incident?
who cares if BILLIONNAIRES are in he red with their hockey team, really...

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12-21-2012, 06:15 PM
  #752
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
the players who are the product, who risk their mind and body
Are you referring to the players who refuse to wear visors and fight the rules to make them mandatory, the players who consistently throw illegal head shots at each other, the players who consistently drive their opponents head first into the boards by checking from behind.

These players can't even decide on the simplest things to protect their future. They consistently block rule changes and appeal suspensions designed to protect them. When some guy like Raffi Torres flies around the league throwing his elbow into the head of opponents the NHLPA should be protecting the victim not the aggressor.

That should tell us all something about the NHLPA... and it isn't something good.

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12-21-2012, 06:20 PM
  #753
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Originally Posted by HCH View Post
Are you referring to the players who refuse to wear visors and fight the rules to make them mandatory, the players who consistently throw illegal head shots at each other, the players who consistently drive their opponents head first into the boards by checking from behind.

These players can't even decide on the simplest things to protect their future. They consistently block rule changes and appeal suspensions designed to protect them. When some guy like Raffi Torres flies around the league throwing his elbow into the head of opponents the NHLPA should be protecting the victim not the aggressor.

That should tell us all something about the NHLPA... and it isn't something good.
What does this have to do with the lockout and hockey revenues? How the players (the product) choose to self-regulate is their own business. Don't make their internal policies a scapegoat, we're not that stupid.

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12-21-2012, 06:25 PM
  #754
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
What does this have to do with the lockout and hockey revenues? How the players (the product) choose to self-regulate is their own business. Don't make their internal policies a scapegoat, we're not that stupid.
You are the one who consistently brings up the risk to their health that the players take. If you don't want it to part of the discussion, then don't include it in your arguments.

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12-21-2012, 06:28 PM
  #755
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You are the one who consistently brings up the risk to their health that the players take. If you don't want it to part of the discussion, then don't include it in your arguments.
whatever the rules, being a pro hockey player will always be very risky.

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12-21-2012, 06:30 PM
  #756
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seriously, seeing how little some of you think of the players, it's a surprise you watch hockey.

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12-21-2012, 06:30 PM
  #757
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A question I have been asking myself. What if a group of players who disagrees with Fehr's lawsuit tactics decides to re-certify after the dissolution? With a disclaimer it's the leadership of the NHLPA that states they can no longer represent the players. Fine then they can just get new leaders... with black jack... and hookers

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12-21-2012, 06:35 PM
  #758
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This whole lockout has left me disgusted and perplexed.

First off, I have never seen anywhere or anyone disband a union for purposes of negotiation. A union is there to protect employees. NHL players should be happy they have a union since most workers don't. Already these players are making millions. I would never make these sums of money during my lifetime. I understand that they would like more but the whole process is very disrespectful to the loyal fans who pay expensive tickets, watching somebody payed millions, slap a puck around. Most fans are honest workers who seldom get raises and will never reach 100 k a year during a lifetime.

I don't know much about labor laws but if the players dissolve their union, doesn't this mean that they are free as air including RFAs? If players are willing to go this far, and wait to see what some greedy owners of this league would offer them, because everyone just wants a season, I think the whole thing would be a slap to the fans. Both parties are greedy and to blame. This whole lockout is therefore a joke.

What if all the owners have some sort of solidarity. What if they tell the players go play in Europe or the minor leagues. What then? The players would fall victims of their own stupidity. The owners could easily come together and create a new league with their own rules. The NHL would be dissolved. Those millions and millions the players make would disappear.

If some greedy owners do go ahead and sign the players, the NHL will lose plenty of franchises. First off, the American teams, Rangers for say, would probably snatch the Crosby's and Malkin's, giving them 40 million a year. Profitable teams could just default and dissolve. The death of the sport will ensue.

Already a whole year was lost in 2004 to implement a salary cap. Many teams benefited from the implementation of such a system. Teams like Edmonton, Ottawa and Calgary were able to compete. And we all know most NHL profits are generated by canadian teams. The salary cap not only allowed for parity in this league, it also was great for players. They saw their salaries explode. They make 10 times more than they did in 2004. Why kill the salary cap?

Donald Fehr is one of the many reasons the Expos left and he is known for helping kill franchises. The owners knew what to expect when the NHLPA hired this guy. They should have tried to find a compromise instead of trying to save teams like Phoenix and Columbus. Bettman should just toss the towel and give up on saving these struggling american franchises.

If the NHLPA disbands, I would love to see the outcome. It could possibly be the best Free Agency we ever witnessed. The NHL is not a major sport such as the NFL or MLB. MLB has revenue sharing. The NBA and NFL have both. If profitable leagues have systems to control excesses, how can the NHL survive in this jungle frenzy. A league with no sort of revenue sharing system will default. It seems the NHL is in a hot bubble.

Both sides probably never wanted to reach this far. Going to court to resolve this issue will be lengthy and the courts will probably see no violation of labor laws on the part of the owners. The players will lose. The owners could just regroup and form a new league. The non-profitable teams would simply disappear. There will be no NHLPA to protect the players anymore. No more Crosby to wine about how the owners are unfair to them.

If the owners would regroup and form a new league with their own rules, players will sign for far less than they make now. So why kill the league and a sport for a million more?

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12-21-2012, 06:40 PM
  #759
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Originally Posted by DumFries View Post
This whole lockout has left me disgusted and perplexed.

First off, I have never seen anywhere or anyone disband a union for purposes of negotiation. A union is there to protect employees. NHL players should be happy they have a union since most workers don't. Already these players are making millions. I would never make these sums of money during my lifetime. I understand that they would like more but the whole process is very disrespectful to the loyal fans who pay expensive tickets, watching somebody payed millions, slap a puck around. Most fans are honest workers who seldom get raises and will never reach 100 k a year during a lifetime.

I don't know much about labor laws but if the players dissolve their union, doesn't this mean that they are free as air including RFAs? If players are willing to go this far, and wait to see what some greedy owners of this league would offer them, because everyone just wants a season, I think the whole thing would be a slap to the fans. Both parties are greedy and to blame. This whole lockout is therefore a joke.

What if all the owners have some sort of solidarity. What if they tell the players go play in Europe or the minor leagues. What then? The players would fall victims of their own stupidity. The owners could easily come together and create a new league with their own rules. The NHL would be dissolved. Those millions and millions the players make would disappear.

If some greedy owners do go ahead and sign the players, the NHL will lose plenty of franchises. First off, the American teams, Rangers for say, would probably snatch the Crosby's and Malkin's, giving them 40 million a year. Profitable teams could just default and dissolve. The death of the sport will ensue.

Already a whole year was lost in 2004 to implement a salary cap. Many teams benefited from the implementation of such a system. Teams like Edmonton, Ottawa and Calgary were able to compete. And we all know most NHL profits are generated by canadian teams. The salary cap not only allowed for parity in this league, it also was great for players. They saw their salaries explode. They make 10 times more than they did in 2004. Why kill the salary cap?

Donald Fehr is one of the many reasons the Expos left and he is known for helping kill franchises. The owners knew what to expect when the NHLPA hired this guy. They should have tried to find a compromise instead of trying to save teams like Phoenix and Columbus. Bettman should just toss the towel and give up on saving these struggling american franchises.

If the NHLPA disbands, I would love to see the outcome. It could possibly be the best Free Agency we ever witnessed. The NHL is not a major sport such as the NFL or MLB. MLB has revenue sharing. The NBA and NFL have both. If profitable leagues have systems to control excesses, how can the NHL survive in this jungle frenzy. A league with no sort of revenue sharing system will default. It seems the NHL is in a hot bubble.

Both sides probably never wanted to reach this far. Going to court to resolve this issue will be lengthy and the courts will probably see no violation of labor laws on the part of the owners. The players will lose. The owners could just regroup and form a new league. The non-profitable teams would simply disappear. There will be no NHLPA to protect the players anymore. No more Crosby to wine about how the owners are unfair to them.

If the owners would regroup and form a new league with their own rules, players will sign for far less than they make now. So why kill the league and a sport for a million more?
are you one of the best in the world in your field ?


you base that argument on what ?

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12-21-2012, 06:47 PM
  #760
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
are you one of the best in the world in your field ?


you base that argument on what ?
To answer your first question. Not even a doctor makes what NHL players make even the best ones.

To answer your second question: some owners might offer big salaries to some players but players eager to play will just sign for far less in a new league.

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12-21-2012, 06:47 PM
  #761
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seriously, seeing how little some of you think of the players, it's a surprise you watch hockey.
There is alot of jealousy among the lads.

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12-21-2012, 06:55 PM
  #762
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Originally Posted by DumFries View Post
To answer your first question. Not even a doctor makes what NHL players make even the best ones.

To answer your second question: some owners might offer big salaries to some players but players eager to play will just sign for far less in a new league.
you know Celine Dion made over 40 Mil last year... why arent you complaining about it ?


sure... thing is, even though they're losing money Nashville still matched the crazy Weber offer, even tough they cant fill their arena, NJ still signed Kovalchuk to a hefty contract, herll pretty much every team has players like that... so again I'll ask, what makes you think the owners would be more reasonnable this time around ?

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12-21-2012, 06:58 PM
  #763
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You covered a lot of ground! Interesting points, but I mostly disagree.

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First off, I have never seen anywhere or anyone disband a union for purposes of negotiation. A union is there to protect employees. NHL players should be happy they have a union since most workers don't. Already these players are making millions. I would never make these sums of money during my lifetime.
The fact that the BOG is trying to intimidate the union into staying together should speak volumes. At some point, owners figured out that collective bargaining helps them more than it does players. Now players may be starting to realize that as well.

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Originally Posted by DumFries View Post
I don't know much about labor laws but if the players dissolve their union, doesn't this mean that they are free as air including RFAs? If players are willing to go this far, and wait to see what some greedy owners of this league would offer them, because everyone just wants a season, I think the whole thing would be a slap to the fans.
IMO the fans have already been slapped. The fact that there is a lengthy work stoppage every time a CBA expires sucks. It's a terrible system for us hockey addicts. Ditching collective bargaining altogether may be the best hope we have to see uninterrupted hockey in the future.

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Originally Posted by DumFries View Post
If some greedy owners do go ahead and sign the players, the NHL will lose plenty of franchises. First off, the American teams, Rangers for say, would probably snatch the Crosby's and Malkin's, giving them 40 million a year. Profitable teams could just default and dissolve. The death of the sport will ensue.
The Penguins have made a ton of money off Crosby and Malkin. Way more than they've spent on these two players. If the Pittsburgh organization factors in merch sales and playoff revenues, they should be willing to give both players substancial raises if other teams start bidding. Luckily for them, Crosby just signed at a bargain salary until 2025.

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Already a whole year was lost in 2004 to implement a salary cap. Many teams benefited from the implementation of such a system. Teams like Edmonton, Ottawa and Calgary were able to compete. And we all know most NHL profits are generated by canadian teams. The salary cap not only allowed for parity in this league, it also was great for players. They saw their salaries explode. They make 10 times more than they did in 2004. Why kill the salary cap?
IMO the Shanahan rules, the strength of the Canadian dollar and the emergence of an exciting group of young stars have all contributed more to increased revenues than the cap.

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Originally Posted by DumFries View Post
If the owners would regroup and form a new league with their own rules, players will sign for far less than they make now. So why kill the league and a sport for a million more?
A new league without the history, arena deals or tv contracts the NHL enjoys? I'd love to see a competing North American league, but I don't see it happening. I hope I'm proven wrong.

Another issue with your scenario, specifically the "form a new league with their own rules" part - I doubt players in the new league would decide to unionize. If they didn't, teams in the new league would be subject to antitrust law. Maybe a way around this would be to have a league under a single ownership group, so the teams would not be run as separate businesses? Not sure if this is possible or not.


Last edited by Roulin: 12-21-2012 at 07:09 PM.
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12-21-2012, 06:58 PM
  #764
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That's a strong IF. Not to mention, if they manage to do that, all players without a contract won't get this settlement and it will destroy the league. Essentially, if players are stupid enough to push that far, I hope they are aware after the damage is done, there won't be an NHL for them after. It's not "pay me and lets play". It becomes "pay me and let me find a new career or go overseas". Overseas is a generous option I find because many teams have limits on foreign players.

BTW, liability of a business will never carry over to personal debt. Owners can go bankrupt and walk away billionaires. Just saying.
If the players own the majority of teams after the owners walk away from their NHL franchises I'm not so sure that the players need to go anywhere. I wonder if they'll keep Bettman.

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12-21-2012, 07:00 PM
  #765
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seriously, seeing how little some of you think of the players, it's a surprise you watch hockey.
I think people think 'little' of their salaries, not the player. For all the typing and debating you have done in this thread, I'm surprised you can't see this. I am of the belief they shouldn't make player salaries public, its not the fan's business to be honest.

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12-21-2012, 07:06 PM
  #766
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I think people think 'little' of their salaries, not the player. For all the typing and debating you have done in this thread, I'm surprised you can't see this. I am of the belief they shouldn't make player salaries public, its not the fan's business to be honest.
Yeah, didnt think about it, but that's an interesting way to look at it.

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12-21-2012, 07:11 PM
  #767
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Fair point re: your first paragraph. Regarding Savard and Pronger, them being cut and them not being cut doesn't really make a difference, their careers are over - they risked their health on a massive scale, who knows how painful their lives will be 5, 10 years down the road? Pronger's wife was distraught at what she saw in her husband - can't be in bright rooms, can't play with his kids, etc. It's awful. And they're not getting NHL Benefits, they're getting insurance just like any other athlete. Insurance that the team had to buy but insurance none-the-less.

I agree that the CBA really protects the players and gives them a lot of rights but when they're being trampled upon on every issue, the CBA can't really protect them. I'm morbidly curious to see what happens next as I don't know if the DoI or decertification is the right move.

Regarding Kane, I have no opinion because it's a non-incident. Sports journalists are self-serving scum, because if they didn't have anything to write about they'd be out of a job. We saw it during the JM/Gauthier era where the team on the ice had many obvious hockey-related flaws but the journalists refused to even discuss HOCKEY and insisted on mentioning how Spacek or Metropolit were doing since leaving the Habs and alluding to all sorts of things they heard "off-the-record" during their dinner dates. They gossip, they prey, they exaggerate. I don't blame them, it's their job, but I sure hate their guts.

If Winnipeg fans really think they feel the way the author suggested then they don't deserve a hockey team. A frigid cold city in the middle of nowhere should welcome some flavour and talent, Kane is a stud and he's not even a "locker-room-cancer" kind of problem, his problem is entirely fabricated by a handful of balding losers.
I never said Pronger or Savard deserve injury or it isn't a big deal but NO ONE told them to become a hockey player. You play knowing the risk and they played and have insurance. At end of the day, considering the physicality of the sport, it's a benefit to have insurance. Does it mean injuries are cool or should be accepted? Hell no. The NHL and it's committees always try and make the game safer for players. No one wants to see someone get hurt but again, this isn't the owners fault. They should've went into another career and even then stuff like CSST exists in real life too. Injuries happen.

Decertification is not the right move. For major stars? Sure but despite what everyone thinks if I'm a 3rd liner or even 2nd liner, capped contracts at 7 years? Trust me, I don't even blink. It's such a stupid thing to get hung up over. The player resistence is laughable. These votes are pressure tactics. It's funny because a player may not even want decertification but vote yes because it's merely for pressure more so than being anything else. They are throwing it out there and some 3rd liners or 4th liners say yes because they want to pressure league into making a deal but not actually to decertify. It will be a court game after and it will be stupid. The NHL won't exist as we know it anymore.

I too agree it's a non-issue however...I'm surprised given how you projected Kristo on some immaturities of his own.

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who cares if BILLIONNAIRES are in he red with their hockey team, really...
They pay the players. The better the investment, the more they are willing to put into it. Not sure why this is rocket science.

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12-21-2012, 07:11 PM
  #768
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you know Celine Dion made over 40 Mil last season... why arent you complaining about it ?


sure... thing is, even though they're losing money Nashville still matched the crazy Weber offer, even tough they cant fill their arena, NJ still signed Kovalchuk to a hefty contract, herll pretty much every team has players like that... so again I'll ask, what makes you think the owners would be more reasonnable this time around ?
I never approved of these artists and movie actors making this kind of money. However, Celine Dion earns her money. What does Gomez do to earn 7 mil./year. I am just saying that their is greed among the players and they are very disrespectful to the fans who buy expensive tickets. The players should be working with the owners to solve this issue. When finances are tough, workers toughen it out most of the time and do concessions. The owners want to save the Phoenix, Panthers and Lightning amongst others. What have the players conceded thus far? The players want to take the owners to court. Hell, if I was payed 5 million a year I would be very thankful to my boss.

Nashville was foolish to match but they needed to fill a building as you said. New Jersey was in the same boat. Owners do not give out these contracts. GMs do. Owners just give them the go to do so. GMs are free to use the money the way they feel to do so.

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12-21-2012, 07:12 PM
  #769
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I think people think 'little' of their salaries, not the player. For all the typing and debating you have done in this thread, I'm surprised you can't see this. I am of the belief they shouldn't make player salaries public, its not the fan's business to be honest.
With a cap it always will be public.

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12-21-2012, 07:18 PM
  #770
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With a cap it always will be public.
Without the cap it was public too.

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12-21-2012, 07:20 PM
  #771
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BTW, if it's any surprise to people I would be in favour of minimum NHL players going up. Of course, this would mean top salaries go down in consequence...which I don't mind. I'm not against the players, I'm merely against the stars driving the negotiations. So many of these issues are issues to only 1% of players if not less. If you want to help the little guy, by all means, better pension, better security and min salaries, absolutely, this is what unions fight for. Fighting for guys like ovie who make 9.4 per...I don't believe in that. I think unions should be there to protect the Darche's who don't get long term salaries and insurance more so to protect those who do. That's why I don't like the NHLPA.

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12-21-2012, 07:21 PM
  #772
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I too agree it's a non-issue however...I'm surprised given how you projected Kristo on some immaturities of his own.
Kristo and Kane have nothing in common imo. Kristo is a prospect who hasn't proved anything in the pros, he has never even played in the pros and he's gotten suspended how many times now? Kane hasn't done anything wrong and hasn't been suspended for behaviour or "off-the-ice" issues as far as I know, also he's a rising star with a big money deal and a lot of potential which he is fulfilling every year. Really different situations. With Kristo I based my opinion off (numerous) little bits of neutrally-presented information, with Kane there is nothing neutral about it as those balding losers in sports writing started the hub-bub all by themselves.

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12-21-2012, 07:21 PM
  #773
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Without the cap it was public too.
Not like it is now. There is dedicated discussions, websites, etc... just based on their caphit and salaries.

It's a different focus. In the past you can get away with not disclosing info, not now.

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12-21-2012, 07:23 PM
  #774
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You covered a lot of ground! Interesting points, but I mostly disagree.



The fact that the BOG is trying to intimidate the union into staying together should speak volumes. At some point, owners figured out that collective bargaining helps them more than it does players. Now players may be starting to realize that as well.



IMO the fans have already been slapped. The fact that there is a lengthy work stoppage every time a CBA expires sucks. It's a terrible system for us hockey addicts. Ditching collective bargaining altogether may be the best hope we have to see uninterrupted hockey in the future.



The Penguins have made a ton of money off Crosby and Malkin. Way more than they've spent on these two players. If the Pittsburgh organization factors in merch sales and playoff revenues, they should be willing to give both players substancial raises if other teams start bidding. Luckily for them, Crosby just signed at a bargain salary until 2025.



IMO the Shanahan rules, the strength of the Canadian dollar and the emergence of an exciting group of young stars have all contributed more to increased revenues than the cap.



A new league without the history, arena deals or tv contracts the NHL enjoys? I'd love to see a competing North American league, but I don't see it happening. I hope I'm proven wrong.

Another issue with your scenario, specifically the "form a new league with their own rules" part - I doubt players in the new league would decide to unionize. If they didn't, teams in the new league would be subject to antitrust law. Maybe a way around this would be to have a league under a single ownership group, so the teams would not be run as separate businesses? Not sure if this is possible or not.
You can't ditch collective argument agreement unless players are not unionized. I don't see how the NHL could function like this. In the new league, their would be a new union just as the old.

The new league would take on the history of the old NHL with same history and TV deals. Canada won't mind a new league. In either case, a league with 10 canadian teams would be more profitable. The strength of the canadian dollar has helped many canadian teams as well but with the salary cap in place, canadian teams have more chances of holding on to their respective players. Apart from the Oilers and Canucks, I don't see any canadian teams with rising young stars. The Habs, Leafs and Flames haven't had any recent successes yet they are still more profitable than the Islanders.

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12-21-2012, 07:28 PM
  #775
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Decertification is not the right move. For major stars? Sure but despite what everyone thinks if I'm a 3rd liner or even 2nd liner, capped contracts at 7 years? Trust me, I don't even blink. It's such a stupid thing to get hung up over. The player resistence is laughable. These votes are pressure tactics. It's funny because a player may not even want decertification but vote yes because it's merely for pressure more so than being anything else. They are throwing it out there and some 3rd liners or 4th liners say yes because they want to pressure league into making a deal but not actually to decertify. It will be a court game after and it will be stupid. The NHL won't exist as we know it anymore.
I think Calgary and Montreal both up their bids for Prust if this offseason's free agency had been in a post-CBA league. Unfortunate as a Hab fan (not a fan of that signing as it is), but good for the 3rd liner. And, no lockout!

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