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Lockout Discussion Thread 4.0

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Old
12-22-2012, 01:13 PM
  #801
Roulin
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
These guys will be making 30% of what they make now, non-guaranteed, in a non-unionized scenario. If they are lucky.
The lockout may have ended their careers anyway. Your figures are speculation... the work stoppages are fact.

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12-22-2012, 01:19 PM
  #802
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Yeah, it's the players who hire lawyers and accountants to find holes in the CBA, not the poor little owners... really.
Ah right, it's not like Players hire agents whose job is to get them the most possible cash.

All of the people involved are equally responsible.

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12-22-2012, 01:20 PM
  #803
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The lockout may have ended their careers anyway. Your figures are speculation... the work stoppages are fact.
No it won't have, unless they're older guys like Hammer. And we all remember what happened to him when he spoke about getting a deal done.

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12-22-2012, 01:42 PM
  #804
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No it won't have, unless they're older guys like Hammer. And we all remember what happened to him when he spoke about getting a deal done.
Yup, Hamrlik is in a position where I actually agree his self-interest should be strongly in favour of signing whatever the BOG offers. Same with Bouillon. Players under short term contract at a decent salary at the very end of their careers. I wouldn't be surprised if they were among the few to vote against the DOI, and I don't blame them.

Campoli and Kostopoulos however: players not under contract, fringe NHL'ers who may have been signed to camp tryouts, who have gotten one year older as prospects have gotten one year closer to the show. For them, I think it makes sense to want to overhaul the system. They should be angry that their employers delayed the season. If it pressures the BOG into settling more quickly, that also works for these players. But their last chance at a payday may already be gone.


Last edited by Roulin: 12-22-2012 at 01:47 PM.
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12-22-2012, 01:45 PM
  #805
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Fehr rigged the poll. There is no other option.
I knew he was no good for this league. DAMN YOU PLAYERS AND FEHR, WHY DID YOU INSIST ON OFFERING HUGE CAP TWISTING CONTRACTS??

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12-22-2012, 01:47 PM
  #806
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I knew he was no good for this league. DAMN YOU PLAYERS AND FEHR, WHY DID YOU INSIST ON OFFERING HUGE CAP TWISTING CONTRACTS??
Too much emphasis is made on the contracts. I personally don't care about it past length and equal distribution of salary.

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12-22-2012, 01:57 PM
  #807
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Too much emphasis is made on the contracts. I personally don't care about it past length and equal distribution of salary.
No one really cares about the contracts. It's a red herring as far as I'm concerned since both owners and players were at peace with both term and length. The NHLPA is just furious because they kept "losing ground" in the traditional Union v. Firm sense and they wanted to put a stop to it. I agree with them on principal but in the specific sense it's a pretty lame thing to get hung up on.

For the record I'm against guaranteed contracts to begin with.

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12-22-2012, 02:08 PM
  #808
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No one really cares about the contracts. It's a red herring as far as I'm concerned since both owners and players were at peace with both term and length. The NHLPA is just furious because they kept "losing ground" in the traditional Union v. Firm sense and they wanted to put a stop to it. I agree with them on principal but in the specific sense it's a pretty lame thing to get hung up on.

For the record I'm against guaranteed contracts to begin with.
Not what I meant though. I mean, at end of the day it's how much you spend in total that counts. If I give crosby 5 mil or 10 mil, it makes no dif because all it means is I have less money for other people.

If Stamkos is a UFA and 30/30 teams only have 2 mil salary available...He can't demand 10 mil. That's why I really don't care about owners giving big contracts, boo hoo. It makes no difference as end of day they still have a cap. What matters to me however is big market owners abusing the system with front loaded deals and that players get 57%.

If the lockout ended based on the agreement:

50-50 split
equal distribution of salary

I would be happy. All I want is a fair league for competitive purposes. I don't have jealously towards players. I don't care if Sidney crosby makes top dollar or if min wages go up. I really don't care as there is a cap. It's just collectively I feel 50-50 is best.

Now, considering contracts are guaranteed I don't blame owners wanting to cap deals. It reduces insurance costs I bet. I don't think 5 is necessary but 7-8 years should be sufficient. I believe contracts are insured up to 7 years but I may be wrong.

In either case, many pro-NHLPA like to believe everyone is some jealous fanboy against players. I really don't care. If I don't have money i don't buy tickets, why should it bother me?

All I care about is that teams are self-sustainable. Of course the NHLPA argues revenue sharing should go up and big markets should bear some responsibility. I'm very much at ease with that logic.

The rest of the negotiations are merely a bunch of crap as far as I'm concerned.

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12-22-2012, 02:23 PM
  #809
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Ah right, it's not like Players hire agents whose job is to get them the most possible cash.

All of the people involved are equally responsible.
So you think they should go in looking for the least amount of cash possible with zero representation?

I find it amusing when people hold celebrities up to these idiotic standards they themselves would never even approach. Let me guess, you are of the opinion that the housing bubble was the fault of the poor people getting loans for homes they couldn't afford but were given enthusiastically?

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12-22-2012, 03:04 PM
  #810
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Ah right, it's not like Players hire agents whose job is to get them the most possible cash.

All of the people involved are equally responsible.
like players care that much wether they get 6 - 6 - 6 or 7 - 6 - 5...

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12-22-2012, 03:06 PM
  #811
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
I don't think the Campolis and Kostopouloses of the league appreciate being locked out every few years either.
Campoli might never play another NHL game.

ETA: I take that back. If the players agreed to play for 15% of HRR, there would be a sufficiently massive round of expansion to markets such as Regina, Saskatchewan and Syracuse, NY that players like Campoli would manage to get new contracts.

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12-22-2012, 03:07 PM
  #812
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Not what I meant though. I mean, at end of the day it's how much you spend in total that counts. If I give crosby 5 mil or 10 mil, it makes no dif because all it means is I have less money for other people.

If Stamkos is a UFA and 30/30 teams only have 2 mil salary available...He can't demand 10 mil. That's why I really don't care about owners giving big contracts, boo hoo. It makes no difference as end of day they still have a cap. What matters to me however is big market owners abusing the system with front loaded deals and that players get 57%.

If the lockout ended based on the agreement:

50-50 split
equal distribution of salary

I would be happy. All I want is a fair league for competitive purposes. I don't have jealously towards players. I don't care if Sidney crosby makes top dollar or if min wages go up. I really don't care as there is a cap. It's just collectively I feel 50-50 is best.

Now, considering contracts are guaranteed I don't blame owners wanting to cap deals. It reduces insurance costs I bet. I don't think 5 is necessary but 7-8 years should be sufficient. I believe contracts are insured up to 7 years but I may be wrong.

In either case, many pro-NHLPA like to believe everyone is some jealous fanboy against players. I really don't care. If I don't have money i don't buy tickets, why should it bother me?

All I care about is that teams are self-sustainable. Of course the NHLPA argues revenue sharing should go up and big markets should bear some responsibility. I'm very much at ease with that logic.

The rest of the negotiations are merely a bunch of crap as far as I'm concerned.

will not happen.

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12-22-2012, 03:09 PM
  #813
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
will not happen.
Lets make a 3 team league. Montreal, Toronto and Rangers. C'mon, you'd be happy then.

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12-22-2012, 03:16 PM
  #814
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Lets make a 3 team league. Montreal, Toronto and Rangers. C'mon, you'd be happy then.
Without revenue sharing Montreal would lose money in that league as it would have the least revenue in spite of needing equal expenses to compete.

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12-22-2012, 03:37 PM
  #815
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Lets make a 3 team league. Montreal, Toronto and Rangers. C'mon, you'd be happy then.
Yeah, the bad TO, NYR and HABS who made profits and are paying for the PHX, NSH and such to stay in this league.

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12-22-2012, 03:40 PM
  #816
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Without revenue sharing Montreal would lose money in that league as it would have the least revenue in spite of needing equal expenses to compete.
come on now...

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12-22-2012, 03:42 PM
  #817
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Without revenue sharing Montreal would lose money in that league as it would have the least revenue in spite of needing equal expenses to compete.
We wouldn't need a cap or revenue sharing if it was a 3 team league.

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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Yeah, the bad TO, NYR and HABS who made profits and are paying for the PHX, NSH and such to stay in this league.
So you want MTL to make profits now? Not sure what you're aiming for here. NYR gives front loaded deals all the time with long term and hides ppl in minors, but you support NYR making money more so than some other teams getting a chance to make the league and sport grow?

What do you want exactly? A ****** league?

I find hockey the best sport in the world. Forgive me if I want the NHL to be reached to many markets and convert many kids into future hockey players.

The more market share you get, the better the players will become. Players will come from california(some are starting to) and we'll have better teams, more talent and a better game.

So you want what exactly? Montreal to buy their cups? You have a 5 team league where all we have is canadians?

What exactly is your business logic. I really believe you have ZERO knowledge of the area. I think zero is a compliment too considering how pointless your arguments are. In your fantasy world the NHLPA, NHL and the fans lose out.

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12-22-2012, 03:59 PM
  #818
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
We wouldn't need a cap or revenue sharing if it was a 3 team league.



So you want MTL to make profits now? Not sure what you're aiming for here. NYR gives front loaded deals all the time with long term and hides ppl in minors, but you support NYR making money more so than some other teams getting a chance to make the league and sport grow?

What do you want exactly? A ****** league?

I find hockey the best sport in the world. Forgive me if I want the NHL to be reached to many markets and convert many kids into future hockey players.

The more market share you get, the better the players will become. Players will come from california(some are starting to) and we'll have better teams, more talent and a better game.

So you want what exactly? Montreal to buy their cups? You have a 5 team league where all we have is canadians?

What exactly is your business logic. I really believe you have ZERO knowledge of the area. I think zero is a compliment too considering how pointless your arguments are. In your fantasy world the NHLPA, NHL and the fans lose out.
I dont care wether Molson makes money or not, it does not change a thing in my life, it doesnt pay my bills, it doesnt gimme more money, nothing. He makes profits, fine. He doesnt, fine.

Nope, contrary to you, I want the league to have teams where there's people interested in watching the sport and spend money on, I also want a league with no beggars, so to speak.

The cutting cost tactics works under one condition, one only, and it's very simple, cutting costs has to be part of a bigger plan (whatever the plan is, you have to have something). Otherwise it's a guarantee to fail most of the time (sure, there's exceptions, but that's what they are). the NHL has no bigger plan, none. Your thinking is the NHL is doing the right thing, yet you cant name a single thing they did (something concrete) to help markets such as PHX or CLB for example. So, you want the league/sport to grow ? and approve of the NHL Owners ? please, gtfo with your "logic".


Actually, contrary to you, I didnt acquire my "business knowledge" trough books, theories, classes, etxc. Sure, you know a few more fancy words as you're still a kid in school. But that's where it stops. What you can put words on, I probably have memories of. Or maybe you want to tell us about all those business experiences of yours, really, what it is like to be in business ??

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12-22-2012, 04:33 PM
  #819
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
I dont care wether Molson makes money or not, it does not change a thing in my life, it doesnt pay my bills, it doesnt gimme more money, nothing. He makes profits, fine. He doesnt, fine.
So what if players lose 50%? It doesn't change a thing in your life either.

Quote:
Nope, contrary to you, I want the league to have teams where there's people interested in watching the sport and spend money on, I also want a league with no beggars, so to speak.

The cutting cost tactics works under one condition, one only, and it's very simple, cutting costs has to be part of a bigger plan (whatever the plan is, you have to have something). Otherwise it's a guarantee to fail most of the time (sure, there's exceptions, but that's what they are). the NHL has no bigger plan, none. Your thinking is the NHL is doing the right thing, yet you cant name a single thing they did (something concrete) to help markets such as PHX or CLB for example. So, you want the league/sport to grow ? and approve of the NHL Owners ? please, gtfo with your "logic".
Are you kidding? I respect the fans in PHX who show up. Unlike here, not everyone is surrounded by hockey talk, news, and people who love the sport. For them to get up, buy tickets and enjoy a game in a market where hockey isn't the NORM I tip my hat off to them. I don't buy this I'm canadian and love hockey crap. Small market fans who show up are just as passionate. They aren't bred into this environment and enjoy our sport. I have tremendous respect for them. Just because they are smaller in number doesn't mean they don't care.

Who said I cannot name a single thing the NHL is trying to do?

Uhm, increased revenue sharing, decreasing costs and evening the contractual playing field by removing front loading contracts. That seems like a good way to help small markets compete vs big markets. No, it didnt take a book to figure that one out.


Quote:
Actually, contrary to you, I didnt acquire my "business knowledge" trough books, theories, classes, etxc. Sure, you know a few more fancy words as you're still a kid in school. But that's where it stops. What you can put words on, I probably have memories of. Or maybe you want to tell us about all those business experiences of yours, really, what it is like to be in business ??
Actually, I am part owner of a business. I just don't talk about it.

In addition, I'm not a kid.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

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Old
12-22-2012, 04:49 PM
  #820
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the reason she makes so much is due to tickets consting hundreds, CD and stuff costing $... are you saying she's disrespectful to her fans who makes minimum wages and spend over a week of salary for a single ticket ?

they want to save these franchises ? really ? what have they done to help them ? example(s) please.

what do you mean "when finances are tough", didnt the NHL had record revenues last season ?

every single excuse is good when it comes to owners I guess, what's next, it's the coach who asked the GM, who was just given the go by the owner ?
You don't seem to get the point. I'm not a fan of Celine but at least Celine gives a top performance every night. Can you say the same for many of these players with million dollar salaries? She makes her fans happy. She gives to charity. She's respected in the world. What do they players do for their fans? They want more money from their employers and are willing to take them to court. Sure, some are involved in the community. Not many though. Some won't even give you an autograph. They won't even say hello to their fans.

You just said Celine makes most of her money from other things. Crosby probably makes more in sponsorship deals than he makes with the Pens (Tim Hortons, Reebok, etc.). So why do the players ask for more $$$ from the owners. They could easily make more $$$ in sponsorship deals and doing other stuff.

Profits are high as I explained because of canadian teams due to a higher canadian dollar and the emergence of stars like Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, etc. Only some 10-15 teams are profitable. All 7 canadian teams are profitable.

The whole lockout is initiated by some stubborn 8 owners according to rumors. If they weren't so keen in helping the struggling teams why has the city of Glendale voted to keep the Yotes in Phoenix. How many times has Bettman tried to save the Yotes. Why is Bettman so stubborn in keeping the Panthers, Isles, Yotes? They have a plan. They see the potential of making big bucks over there. I don't.

And don't take it the wrong way, I'm not in the owners side either. I'm just highlighting the greed of both sides. The owners want $$$ and keep trying to promote the game in Phoenix, Nashville and Florida. Clearly it hasn't worked. Atlanta was sold and was giving to the richest family in Canada. Clearly the $$$ facilitated the move to Winnipeg. The Nordiques, old Jets and Whalers are all gone due to $$$. They didn't do much to save them. Yet, these teams would be profitable in today's NHL.

I don't miss the NHL because clearly its a war between millionaires and billionaires. They don't want to settle. Players want more, they don't want to play. By dissolving their union, the whole thing will take the whole winter to resolve. Why should I take the players side when I see how greedy they are? Whenever I see that Fehr, I could only see how he killed baseball and was a contributor to the Expos demise. I don't take the owner's side but I have a more favorable approach for the owners as the ideas they want to implement this time seem reasonable.

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12-22-2012, 05:19 PM
  #821
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You don't seem to get the point. I'm not a fan of Celine but at least Celine gives a top performance every night. Can you say the same for many of these players with million dollar salaries? She makes her fans happy. She gives to charity. She's respected in the world. What do they players do for their fans? They want more money from their employers and are willing to take them to court. Sure, some are involved in the community. Not many though. Some won't even give you an autograph. They won't even say hello to their fans.

You just said Celine makes most of her money from other things. Crosby probably makes more in sponsorship deals than he makes with the Pens (Tim Hortons, Reebok, etc.). So why do the players ask for more $$$ from the owners. They could easily make more $$$ in sponsorship deals and doing other stuff.

Profits are high as I explained because of canadian teams due to a higher canadian dollar and the emergence of stars like Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, etc. Only some 10-15 teams are profitable. All 7 canadian teams are profitable.

The whole lockout is initiated by some stubborn 8 owners according to rumors. If they weren't so keen in helping the struggling teams why has the city of Glendale voted to keep the Yotes in Phoenix. How many times has Bettman tried to save the Yotes. Why is Bettman so stubborn in keeping the Panthers, Isles, Yotes? They have a plan. They see the potential of making big bucks over there. I don't.

And don't take it the wrong way, I'm not in the owners side either. I'm just highlighting the greed of both sides. The owners want $$$ and keep trying to promote the game in Phoenix, Nashville and Florida. Clearly it hasn't worked. Atlanta was sold and was giving to the richest family in Canada. Clearly the $$$ facilitated the move to Winnipeg. The Nordiques, old Jets and Whalers are all gone due to $$$. They didn't do much to save them. Yet, these teams would be profitable in today's NHL.

I don't miss the NHL because clearly its a war between millionaires and billionaires. They don't want to settle. Players want more, they don't want to play. By dissolving their union, the whole thing will take the whole winter to resolve. Why should I take the players side when I see how greedy they are? Whenever I see that Fehr, I could only see how he killed baseball and was a contributor to the Expos demise. I don't take the owner's side but I have a more favorable approach for the owners as the ideas they want to implement this time seem reasonable.
most hockey players do charity as well, they just dont talk about it. Players (well not 14th F or 8th D obviously) are loved by the fans of the teams as well. Really, dont see how you find so many differences in people who are all there for entertainment nothing more. they may not do the exact same thing but the goal is the same : entertain. Yet no one complains whenever an artist isnt in tip top shape...

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12-22-2012, 05:23 PM
  #822
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You don't seem to get the point. I'm not a fan of Celine but at least Celine gives a top performance every night. Can you say the same for many of these players with million dollar salaries? She makes her fans happy. She gives to charity. She's respected in the world. What do they players do for their fans? They want more money from their employers and are willing to take them to court. Sure, some are involved in the community. Not many though. Some won't even give you an autograph. They won't even say hello to their fans.

You just said Celine makes most of her money from other things. Crosby probably makes more in sponsorship deals than he makes with the Pens (Tim Hortons, Reebok, etc.). So why do the players ask for more $$$ from the owners. They could easily make more $$$ in sponsorship deals and doing other stuff.

Profits are high as I explained because of canadian teams due to a higher canadian dollar and the emergence of stars like Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, etc. Only some 10-15 teams are profitable. All 7 canadian teams are profitable.

The whole lockout is initiated by some stubborn 8 owners according to rumors. If they weren't so keen in helping the struggling teams why has the city of Glendale voted to keep the Yotes in Phoenix. How many times has Bettman tried to save the Yotes. Why is Bettman so stubborn in keeping the Panthers, Isles, Yotes? They have a plan. They see the potential of making big bucks over there. I don't.

And don't take it the wrong way, I'm not in the owners side either. I'm just highlighting the greed of both sides. The owners want $$$ and keep trying to promote the game in Phoenix, Nashville and Florida. Clearly it hasn't worked. Atlanta was sold and was giving to the richest family in Canada. Clearly the $$$ facilitated the move to Winnipeg. The Nordiques, old Jets and Whalers are all gone due to $$$. They didn't do much to save them. Yet, these teams would be profitable in today's NHL.

I don't miss the NHL because clearly its a war between millionaires and billionaires. They don't want to settle. Players want more, they don't want to play. By dissolving their union, the whole thing will take the whole winter to resolve. Why should I take the players side when I see how greedy they are? Whenever I see that Fehr, I could only see how he killed baseball and was a contributor to the Expos demise. I don't take the owner's side but I have a more favorable approach for the owners as the ideas they want to implement this time seem reasonable.
Really, what did he do to help PHX exactly ? an example, something tangible, thank you.

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12-22-2012, 05:40 PM
  #823
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less quibbling, a little more debating, hmm?

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12-22-2012, 05:42 PM
  #824
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less quibbling, a little more debating, hmm?
in case one is wondering:

quibbling present participle of quib·ble
Verb
Argue or raise objections about a trivial matter: "they are always quibbling about the amount they are prepared to pay".

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12-22-2012, 05:42 PM
  #825
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less quibbling, a little more debating, hmm?
Fair enough.

Let me ask a serious question.

Pro NHLPA or Pro owners.

Whichever side you're on do you think removing front loading will help small markets compete?

Personally, I do because I feel small markets will avoid Weber type situations and can pay UFAs similar rates. Some may disagree and if you agree or disagree, why?

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