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12-11-2012, 06:35 PM
  #151
Protest the Hero
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Owners wanted 50/50, players agree to that, they may have to fine tune the offer as they disagree on how to reach it and all, but players are willing to get to 50 / 50. That's a major concession.

losing hundreds of millions in profits for the Habs, Leafs, Flyers, Bruins, NYR and a few others as well as "killing" franchises such as Columbus or Phoenix for example, just so you can reach your 50/50 in 3 years instead of 4 (for example), really ? how many millions owers are willing to lose to gain ONE (maybe two?) year of 50/50 ?

Owners wanted shorter contracts, players agree to that as well, again they may not agree on the terms, but they do agree with the main idea. That's another concession, and a major one too.

So, again, some teams are willing to lose a year of profits so they have max contract at 5 years instead of, let's say, 7 years ? really ?

and that's all this lockout is about, anything else is minor details... even though, if you compare the last CBA to what the owners are asking from the players to sign a new CBA, arent making any concessions, none.
Well considering barely any teams even generate profit, I'm going to guess they're willing to sit out longer than players.

I'm curious if you know why Fehr wanted a 5 year CBA.

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12-11-2012, 06:39 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
My ex-girlfriend father was technician in electrical engineering at ABB and they paid him to get his degree, so he was working 40h a week, some day he worked late so the next he could go to his course, sometime he finished work in the weekend. All this while having 4 childrens and now he is a electrical engineer. Maybe it took him 6-7 years though I don't remember exactly, but trust me it's true.

One of my friend started his degree in logistic at 25 years old and guess what he is good and his life didn't end because of that !

I know a guy in one of my class last year who is a 30 years old plumber and he returned to school to get a mechanical engineering degree.

And how the hell did you get your 8 years of failed pursuit in your other post ?
if, of all the people you know/met in life you can name only 3 that did so, you can easily conclude that they are a minority (and there's a reason for that), just like Kriss who talked of ONE person.

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12-11-2012, 06:44 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Protest the Hero View Post
I'm curious if you know why Fehr wanted a 5 year CBA.
I thought Fehr wanted 6+2, whereas the owners asking for an 8-year deal.

They could really split it down the middle: a 7 year deal, with the players getting a 1-year option at the end ...

The owners and players are very close. Over the next 8 years we're talking about 26 billion dollars in total revenue, in the margin comes down to a 100 million dollar difference on the make-whole (0.4% of total revenue) and 6+2 versus 8 years for the agreement.

Perhaps there are larger differences on the revenue sharing side of things. It may be that Jeremy Jacobs does not want to pay more into revenue sharing.


Last edited by DAChampion: 12-11-2012 at 06:51 PM.
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12-11-2012, 06:51 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
if, of all the people you know/met in life you can name only 3 that did so, you can easily conclude that they are a minority (and there's a reason for that), just like Kriss who talked of ONE person.
Well I could probably name others, then again that doesn't mean the all the other peoples that I know can't, it's just they did their degrees right away or didn't want degrees at all, doesn't mean they wouldn't have been able to do it later in their life...I don't understand why that would be such hard to think that's possible.

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12-11-2012, 07:00 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
Well I could probably name others, then again that doesn't mean the all the other peoples that I know can't, it's just they did their degrees right away or didn't want degrees at all, doesn't mean they wouldn't have been able to do it later in their life...I don't understand why that would be such hard to think that's possible.
The one Kriss mentioned is impossible. You cannot be full-time at Bombardier while doing an engineering degree, though of course it is possible for a small portion of the degree. The first, second, and third year courses are only offered at specific times, and those times are not consistent with a full-time job halfway across town. You can try skipping classes and learning from the book in the weekend, but that comes with a limit, you still need to be present during exams, and you still need to be present during labs. Certainly however there may be similar stories that are possible.

Anyhow, I don't see why we should expect the world of potential players but need to cuddle owners.


Last edited by DAChampion: 12-11-2012 at 07:14 PM.
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12-11-2012, 07:39 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
Well I could probably name others, then again that doesn't mean the all the other peoples that I know can't, it's just they did their degrees right away or didn't want degrees at all, doesn't mean they wouldn't have been able to do it later in their life...I don't understand why that would be such hard to think that's possible.
it's not that it's impossible, it's just that it isnt as easy as some (like Kriss) seems to think.

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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The one Kriss mentioned is impossible. You cannot be full-time at Bombardier while doing an engineering degree, though of course it is possible for a small portion of the degree. The first, second, and third year courses are only offered at specific times, and those times are not consistent with a full-time job halfway across town. You can try skipping classes and learning from the book in the weekend, but that comes with a limit, you still need to be present during exams, and you still need to be present during labs. Certainly however there may be similar stories that are possible.

Anyhow, I don't see why we should expect the world of potential players but need to cuddle owners.
pretty much...

billionnaires owners : OMG they may lose a little over the billions they have, what a tragedy!!!!!

millionaires players : ****** em, if they don't like it they can apply for a janitor job.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 12-11-2012 at 09:02 PM. Reason: merge
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12-11-2012, 08:21 PM
  #157
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The guys that don't make it are not being affected by the CBA, and the guys that do make it, make 5-10 times the amount in one year that their parents spent on them to get there.
The guys that don't make it took the risk and lost. The guys that did took the risk and had it pay off. In both cases there was a risk but in most cases the players didn't make it.

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It's not a financial risk being an NHL player(key word, NHL).
The risk is in trying to become one man... That should be pretty clear.

Once you've made it, you've made it. But it's the 'making it' that's the hard part. And if you want to be an NHL player good luck. It requires a hell of a lot of dedication and you still probably won't make it...
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It's hard getting there(physically and financially), no one is arguing that, but these guys forgo school knowing they'll make more playing a game they love than any career they can pursue short of waiting 10-15 years to reach that level of pay.
But they dont' KNOW this. That's the whole point. They're HOPING to do that. Hope and knowledge are not the same thing. And the gap between them is known as 'risk.'


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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Do they really? Nobody forces those kids to quite school.
Nobody forced Geoff Molson to buy the Montreal Canadiens. Does that mean that he doesn't have financial risk either?


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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Look at guys like Leblanc that make it to Harvard, or Darche who has a degree from McGill. If those guys can get degrees, then why wouldn't others?
Maybe it's more demanding, but it's not like one has to choose one or the other, to the point where they are absolutely screwed if they don't make it.
Louis Leblanc was a highly rated player. Maybe he didn't have to work as hard as some scrub who had to work ten times harder to be a 4th liner. And maybe if Darche and Leblanc had dedicated themselves more to the game they'd have been much better players...
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Also, when does one call it quits? If you haven't made high level junior by 17-18, isn't it over for you? What have they mortgage by that age really?
For those that do make it, get drafted in the NHL, play minor pro, what's their cut off age? 24-25? What's preventing them from going to University and getting a degree?
How do you tell that to the last cut of an NHL team? How do you tell the guy who just missed out on an NHL career? The AHL is full of guys who might even be NHL calibre but for whatever reason never got to show it...


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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
How is a kid pursuing and quitting school any different than someone going to school (spending about as much, if not more, on tuition+material than a player on hockey related fees) but failing to reach success in wtv field they chose? Everybody goes through those choices. Same as owners. How many kids opt a career in business only to fail?
It's different because those kids at least have degrees to fall back on.

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Bottom line is the owners took the same financial risks as the players did when they grew up and pursued their careers. Difference is, when they reach the top, NHL players do not take any financial risks,
That's because those NHL players took the risks earlier in life... Doesn't mean that no risks existed.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
the owners do by paying the bill for everything related to the team. Only thing the players risk at the NHL level is health, but like I said, even if they get a career ending injury, they have guaranteed contracts to fall back on.
I realize that it's not the same kind of thing but to sit there and pretend that the players are fat cats who don't really have any skin in the game just isn't accurate and that's all I'm saying.

Yes, the owners foot the bill but those players had to work pretty damn hard to get there with no saftey net underneath. Sure once they get there they've mitigated the risk but the risk was in getting there in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
We agree on there being a big enough pie for everybody to be happy, and the way things have been handled (both sides) is ridiculous.
I think everyone agrees on this. And it's pathetic that this is all we have to talk about right now.

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12-11-2012, 08:27 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You seem to think people have this short window of opportunity to get a higher level of education, and that if they choose to try out hockey but fail, they are screwed.
My friend worked at bombardier full time while studying to become an engineer. He also took care of all his house choires and had his social life. He graduated and is doing extremely well.
How is that any different than someone training for hockey?

And what's funny about David Fischer's major? The guy can study in wtv he wants, I don't see what's funny.

But the point that you keep ignoring is that education is always available!
I went to McGill full time, getting a BA in English and a Bachelors in Education. I worked 1-3 jobs throughout, averaging around 25 hours of work while doing a full time course load. I also trained for Martial Arts on a daily basis. My grades were more in the C-to A- range. I graduated and have a career I love in my chosen profession. So, you are right, it is quite possible to work and pursue an education while also engaging in rigorous physical training and working.

The thing that DAChampion wants to try and do is dismiss ALL of the hockey players who have gotten an education while training for a professional career in the NHL. It is very easy for him to belittle David Fischer, but it is quite disgusting, as well. At least it is interesting to note he trashes strangers without any regard to their status in the world...

Somehow, I think guys like McDonough and others have done very well with both pursuing their dream of the NHL and getting an education. For each Fischer there are other success stories and I am sure that there are plenty of guys who tried for the NHL while at university who ended up switching from pursuing an NHL career to getting a career in their chosen university field. If you listen to DAChampion, though, all of those guys are failures. Wow...just...wow...

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12-11-2012, 08:38 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The guys that don't make it took the risk and lost. The guys that did took the risk and had it pay off. In both cases there was a risk but in most cases the players didn't make it.


The risk is in trying to become one man... That should be pretty clear.

Once you've made it, you've made it. But it's the 'making it' that's the hard part. And if you want to be an NHL player good luck. It requires a hell of a lot of dedication and you still probably won't make it...

But they dont' KNOW this. That's the whole point. They're HOPING to do that. Hope and knowledge are not the same thing. And the gap between them is known as 'risk.'
You're mixing my opinions into a whole different discussion. I was only making those points in relation to signing a new CBA, which is why the guys who don't make it, don't factor into it at all.

I'll say again, the players are making concessions, but they don't put the players livelihood at stake, and only really affect 10% of the players. Which is why we shouldn't lose a season.

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12-11-2012, 08:39 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
I went to McGill full time, getting a BA in English and a Bachelors in Education. I worked 1-3 jobs throughout, averaging around 25 hours of work while doing a full time course load. I also trained for Martial Arts on a daily basis. My grades were more in the C-to A- range. I graduated and have a career I love in my chosen profession. So, you are right, it is quite possible to work and pursue an education while also engaging in rigorous physical training and working.

The thing that DAChampion wants to try and do is dismiss ALL of the hockey players who have gotten an education while training for a professional career in the NHL. It is very easy for him to belittle David Fischer, but it is quite disgusting, as well. At least it is interesting to note he trashes strangers without any regard to their status in the world...

Somehow, I think guys like McDonough and others have done very well with both pursuing their dream of the NHL and getting an education. For each Fischer there are other success stories and I am sure that there are plenty of guys who tried for the NHL while at university who ended up switching from pursuing an NHL career to getting a career in their chosen university field. If you listen to DAChampion, though, all of those guys are failures. Wow...just...wow...
1) Relax.

2) I'm not belittling David Fischer. He made a strategic decision to take a cookie-cutter major (Communications Studies) in order to focus more on hockey (presumably that was the reason). The fact it failed in his case does not mean it was a foolish decision, as it did have a decent probability of success.

If you think it's disgusting then work on your reading skills. It's not disgusting. David Fischer took a financial risk -- he sacrificed his education to focus on hockey -- he's allowed to do so.

To reiterate, it doesn't reflect poorly on him that his decision failed. Sometimes, plans fail, even when good people make them, and even if the plans were reasonable.

3) There are more David Fischers than there are Ryan McDonaghs.

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12-11-2012, 08:57 PM
  #161
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There may be a cultural disconnect for those of you from Canada and who live in Canada, which is most of you. You may not be familiar with a lot of cultural background.

In the US, college sports are big money. College football coaches are the highest paid government employees in the USA, with salaries reaching 5 million/year, 10 times as much as the president and 20 times as much as the top generals and admirals. Within a few years it will be 10 million/year, and soon, 20 million/year.

This is because alumni donate more money to universities with winning teams. The biggest is football, by a huge margin, but ice hockey, basketball, and a few others are big as well.

Therefore, universities want their teams to win. We all know the story of how Penn State covered up that one of their coaches was a pedophile, they didn't want a competent coach removed from their staff as it would mean less money coming into the university.

One thing schools do is that they make things easier for college athletes. There's a lot of double standards here, but a common strategy is to have some easy courses and majors available for college athletes to take. They can get B's and C's with very little effort. People like drydenwasthebest may be able to put in 23 hours a week part time and get good grades in a double major, but many people cannot. The idea is to liberate the athlete's plate as much as possible so that he can focus on what matters most: sports. There are only 168 hours in a week. It's zero sum. More hours in category A means fewer hours in category B.

Of course, given that a scholarship is included, some may choose to get a real education, like business administration or finance or biology. However, many will make the strategic decision and financial risk to sacrifice their education focus on sports, and will as such major in "communications studies". Don't belittle the people making those legitimate decisions given their choices -- belittle the hypocritical process.

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12-11-2012, 09:15 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You seem to think people have this short window of opportunity to get a higher level of education, and that if they choose to try out hockey but fail, they are screwed.
My friend worked at bombardier full time while studying to become an engineer. He also took care of all his house choires and had his social life. He graduated and is doing extremely well.
How is that any different than someone training for hockey?


And what's funny about David Fischer's major? The guy can study in wtv he wants, I don't see what's funny.

But the point that you keep ignoring is that education is always available!
I will point out some differences that are actually quite substantial. One working at Bombardier and studying engineering are related. In fact doing an engineering degree that way has probably been paramount to his success. Getting that real world hands on experience in the work place to be able to relate to what you're studying in engineering is going to be really good at setting your friend up for success. I know, I'm an electrical engineer that has done co-op which has been super valuable to my early career. Whereas studying communication or whatever it is has very little to do with hockey and doesn't give any kind of positive re-enforcement do a hockey career. So this example is really not a good one.

A better example would be working full-time at Starbucks doing split shifts and doing your engineering degree, but chances are if you're doing that you're not getting the same level of absorption in the degree program as the guy that dedicates his full attention to the degree. I knew people that were strung out by engineering and working, and that's not to say they were bad but they were never top students. I from experienced tried in first year to work my job at the ice rinks as a skate patrol and studying for engineering at the same time, I failed 2 courses in my second term which made me re-evaluate how I was going to go about rectifying the scenario.

So back to a hockey player, well studying at the same time of focusing on being a pro hockey player, I think the effort will be much more emphasized on becoming a pro hockey player.

Anyways this is a total aside and all I want to point out here is that comparing working in the industry that you're planning on going into while studying that industry at the same time is VERY different from studying something while working in an unrelated field. Hockey players that are trying to make it pro happen to have more priority on work, at least I would think.

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12-11-2012, 09:22 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
I went to McGill full time, getting a BA in English and a Bachelors in Education. I worked 1-3 jobs throughout, averaging around 25 hours of work while doing a full time course load. I also trained for Martial Arts on a daily basis. My grades were more in the C-to A- range. I graduated and have a career I love in my chosen profession. So, you are right, it is quite possible to work and pursue an education while also engaging in rigorous physical training and working.

The thing that DAChampion wants to try and do is dismiss ALL of the hockey players who have gotten an education while training for a professional career in the NHL. It is very easy for him to belittle David Fischer, but it is quite disgusting, as well. At least it is interesting to note he trashes strangers without any regard to their status in the world...

Somehow, I think guys like McDonough and others have done very well with both pursuing their dream of the NHL and getting an education. For each Fischer there are other success stories and I am sure that there are plenty of guys who tried for the NHL while at university who ended up switching from pursuing an NHL career to getting a career in their chosen university field. If you listen to DAChampion, though, all of those guys are failures. Wow...just...wow...
I can attest to this, one of my friends in law school right now has on his intramural team a goalie that was drafted in the NHL, studying to be a lawyer. Now I'm somewhat shocked at the level of hockey being played in intramural at university but hey there you have an example of that.


Last edited by Reiher: 12-11-2012 at 09:35 PM.
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12-11-2012, 09:27 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Protest the Hero View Post
Well considering barely any teams even generate profit, I'm going to guess they're willing to sit out longer than players.

I'm curious if you know why Fehr wanted a 5 year CBA.
sure missing a year would solve that...

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12-11-2012, 09:31 PM
  #165
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I will point out some differences that are actually quite substantial. One working at Bombardier and studying engineering are related. In fact doing an engineering degree that way has probably been paramount to his success. Getting that real world hands on experience in the work place to be able to relate to what you're studying in engineering is going to be really good at setting your friend up for success. I know, I'm an electrical engineer that has done co-op which has been super valuable to my early career. Whereas studying communication or whatever it is has very little to do with hockey and doesn't give any kind of positive re-enforcement do a hockey career. So this example is really not a good one.

A better example would be working full-time at Starbucks doing split shifts and doing your engineering degree, but chances are if you're doing that you're not getting the same level of absorption in the degree program as the guy that dedicates his full attention to the degree. I knew people that were strung out by engineering and working, and that's not to say they were bad but they were never top students. I from experienced tried in first year to work my job at the ice rinks as a skate patrol and studying for engineering at the same time, I failed 2 courses in my second term which made me re-evaluate how I was going to go about rectifying the scenario.

So back to a hockey player, well studying at the same time of focusing on being a pro hockey player, I think the effort will be much more emphasized on becoming a pro hockey player.

Anyways this is a total aside and all I want to point out here is that comparing working in the industry that you're planning on going into while studying that industry at the same time is VERY different from studying something while working in an unrelated field. Hockey players that are trying to make it pro happen to have more priority on work, at least I would think.
not only a priority, but trying to go to class while you spend half the year out of town (like in the NHL/AHL) makes it very hard to do anything outside hockey during that time.

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12-11-2012, 09:41 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
if, of all the people you know/met in life you can name only 3 that did so, you can easily conclude that they are a minority (and there's a reason for that), just like Kriss who talked of ONE person.
I could name you a few others actually, but I have a feeling you might answer ''where's the proof? Anybody can say that''. So really, why should I bother.

And as someone else posted, many people either get their tuition paid for by their folks or through loans/scholarships/grants, so they get to focus on their studies better, but in no way does that mean they would fail if they had to work on the side.
I know plenty of people that have done it, at a young age, or older one as refugees.
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it's not that it's impossible, it's just that it isnt as easy as some (like Kriss) seems to think.
Never said it was easy. Just said it was a very plausible possibility. No success in life comes easy, none.

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Nobody forced Geoff Molson to buy the Montreal Canadiens. Does that mean that he doesn't have financial risk either?
Sure, but this isn't his first business venture.
My point is that the risk Molson takes paying over 100M in expenses on a yearly basis is different from the one a young kid takes when he opts for his 1st career path. That's why I called it a life choice, to differentiate both.
I mean, the equivalent risk or life choice an owner takes to the one the player takes is when he chooses to pursue a career in business (or wtv first career choice he opted for) at a young age.

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Louis Leblanc was a highly rated player. Maybe he didn't have to work as hard as some scrub who had to work ten times harder to be a 4th liner. And maybe if Darche and Leblanc had dedicated themselves more to the game they'd have been much better players...

How do you tell that to the last cut of an NHL team? How do you tell the guy who just missed out on an NHL career? The AHL is full of guys who might even be NHL calibre but for whatever reason never got to show it...
Sure, maybe they would have been better, maybe not. No way to know really. All we do know is that they made the NHL without completely jeopardizing their education.

It has to come from within. No one can really tell Angelo Esposito to retire from hockey and go back into medicine, he alone can take that decision. The point is that the option for him to do so is there.

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It's different because those kids at least have degrees to fall back on.
But what's the point of having a degree in finance when you can't get a decent job in the field? Or getting a dead end job.
It's the same thing as a player reaching the AHL and grabbing a 40K salary.
At that point, you still have the possibility of quitting and opting for a new career path.

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That's because those NHL players took the risks earlier in life... Doesn't mean that no risks existed.

I realize that it's not the same kind of thing but to sit there and pretend that the players are fat cats who don't really have any skin in the game just isn't accurate and that's all I'm saying.

Yes, the owners foot the bill but those players had to work pretty damn hard to get there with no saftey net underneath. Sure once they get there they've mitigated the risk but the risk was in getting there in the first place.
My point was that the risk any kid takes to pursue a career is the same, regardless of the job. Different curriculum, but same thing. Every one will need to put in extra work and have the talent necessary to reach maximum success.
That's why I'll call it more of a life choice.

And I agree, I don't think players are fat cats. At the same time, I don't think the owners are the big evil operating from hell. I think both sides are dumb and I really couldn't care less who gets what as it affects me in no way. All I care about is for games to start.

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12-11-2012, 09:43 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Protest the Hero View Post
You're mixing my opinions into a whole different discussion. I was only making those points in relation to signing a new CBA, which is why the guys who don't make it, don't factor into it at all.
It doesn't change the landscape against which these players grew into their profession. The point is that these guys sacrificed a lot to get where they are and took risks to get there. They aren't a bunch of fat cats who did nothing to get where they are and some folks are portraying them that way.

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Originally Posted by Protest the Hero View Post
I'll say again, the players are making concessions, but they don't put the players livelihood at stake, and only really affect 10% of the players. Which is why we shouldn't lose a season.
That 10% is WHY we go to see the games. I go to see Sidney Crosby and Carey Price. I don't go to watch Mathieu Darche and Brooks Orpik. And going from 57% to 50% hurts all the players not just the top ten percent.

As for those concessions putting the players livelyhood at stake... you are missing the point.

As for us losing the season, again I mostly blame Bettman for this. He wants to be a hardass every time. And walking away like he did was ridiculous. He can't keep having these stoppages every time a contract comes up, it's a joke.

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12-11-2012, 09:44 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Reiher View Post
I will point out some differences that are actually quite substantial. One working at Bombardier and studying engineering are related. In fact doing an engineering degree that way has probably been paramount to his success. Getting that real world hands on experience in the work place to be able to relate to what you're studying in engineering is going to be really good at setting your friend up for success. I know, I'm an electrical engineer that has done co-op which has been super valuable to my early career. Whereas studying communication or whatever it is has very little to do with hockey and doesn't give any kind of positive re-enforcement do a hockey career. So this example is really not a good one.

A better example would be working full-time at Starbucks doing split shifts and doing your engineering degree, but chances are if you're doing that you're not getting the same level of absorption in the degree program as the guy that dedicates his full attention to the degree. I knew people that were strung out by engineering and working, and that's not to say they were bad but they were never top students. I from experienced tried in first year to work my job at the ice rinks as a skate patrol and studying for engineering at the same time, I failed 2 courses in my second term which made me re-evaluate how I was going to go about rectifying the scenario.

So back to a hockey player, well studying at the same time of focusing on being a pro hockey player, I think the effort will be much more emphasized on becoming a pro hockey player.

Anyways this is a total aside and all I want to point out here is that comparing working in the industry that you're planning on going into while studying that industry at the same time is VERY different from studying something while working in an unrelated field. Hockey players that are trying to make it pro happen to have more priority on work, at least I would think.
Hockey players can study in fitness related fields, that would help them in the same way.

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12-11-2012, 09:51 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Hockey players can study in fitness related fields, that would help them in the same way.
Not denying that, in fact that to me sounds like a pretty good idea, might make them more aware of how to avoid injury all together. I just wanted to make the point that studying to be an engineer working in at an engineering firm is actually as a net result for a better engineer because it gives the opportunity of the student to get perspective on what a professor is talking about.

It's not like there is such a thing as a degree in hockey, although as you've pointed out studying in the fields of fitness might be a good approach, that would be an interesting avenue to explore.

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12-11-2012, 09:52 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I could name you a few others actually, but I have a feeling you might answer ''where's the proof? Anybody can say that''. So really, why should I bother.

And as someone else posted, many people either get their tuition paid for by their folks or through loans/scholarships/grants, so they get to focus on their studies better, but in no way does that mean they would fail if they had to work on the side.
I know plenty of people that have done it, at a young age, or older one as refugees.

Never said it was easy. Just said it was a very plausible possibility. No success in life comes easy, none.


Sure, but this isn't his first business venture.
My point is that the risk Molson takes paying over 100M in expenses on a yearly basis is different from the one a young kid takes when he opts for his 1st career path. That's why I called it a life choice, to differentiate both.
I mean, the equivalent risk or life choice an owner takes to the one the player takes is when he chooses to pursue a career in business (or wtv first career choice he opted for) at a young age.



Sure, maybe they would have been better, maybe not. No way to know really. All we do know is that they made the NHL without completely jeopardizing their education.

It has to come from within. No one can really tell Angelo Esposito to retire from hockey and go back into medicine, he alone can take that decision. The point is that the option for him to do so is there.



But what's the point of having a degree in finance when you can't get a decent job in the field? Or getting a dead end job.
It's the same thing as a player reaching the AHL and grabbing a 40K salary.
At that point, you still have the possibility of quitting and opting for a new career path.



My point was that the risk any kid takes to pursue a career is the same, regardless of the job. Different curriculum, but same thing. Every one will need to put in extra work and have the talent necessary to reach maximum success.
That's why I'll call it more of a life choice.

And I agree, I don't think players are fat cats. At the same time, I don't think the owners are the big evil operating from hell. I think both sides are dumb and I really couldn't care less who gets what as it affects me in no way. All I care about is for games to start.
Well, I put more blame on Bettman than anyone here. I don't blame the players for being upset. You sign a contract and now the league wants to chop deals already signed for? That's ugly. And to make it worse Bettman's been a dick about the whole thing. If he'd started from the position that he's at now instead of the ridiculous offers he made at the beginning we'd be so much further ahead and probably would've had a full season. Instead he wanted a war.

Well, he got one...

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12-11-2012, 10:01 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Reiher View Post
Not denying that, in fact that to me sounds like a pretty good idea, might make them more aware of how to avoid injury all together. I just wanted to make the point that studying to be an engineer working in at an engineering firm is actually as a net result for a better engineer because it gives the opportunity of the student to get perspective on what a professor is talking about.

It's not like there is such a thing as a degree in hockey, although as you've pointed out studying in the fields of fitness might be a good approach, that would be an interesting avenue to explore.
Sone have suggested a degree in "sports" for college athletes, which I think would make a lot more sense.

Either way though, in that case they are not pursuing an education as well as as sports simultaneously.

To quote a famous saying "a jack of all trades is a master of none".

You can do multiple things at once, but then you're probably just diminishing how well you do any of those particular things. If you still end up succeeding in each, it just means you are above average, but then if you're above average you have all the more reason to specialize and really kick ass.

By the way, I get your experience about studying and school at the same time. I once worked in just the first part of a semester, and then quit because being a waiter and being a student simultaneously was too hard. I ended up with a ~60 in organic chemistry, which was probably a 58.

**********

There is simply no denying that seriously aiming for an athletic career is a financial risk.

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12-11-2012, 10:03 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Well, I put more blame on Bettman than anyone here. I don't blame the players for being upset. You sign a contract and now the league wants to chop deals already signed for? That's ugly. And to make it worse Bettman's been a dick about the whole thing. If he'd started from the position that he's at now instead of the ridiculous offers he made at the beginning we'd be so much further ahead and probably would've had a full season. Instead he wanted a war.

Well, he got one...
I also thought the 43% offer, with the five-year entry-level contracts, was counterproductive.

When times are good, why start with an insult?

The players started with a 54% offer coupled to a (100?) million dollar increase in revenue sharing. A fair offer. They didn't start off requesting 71% and working down because "in negotiations you always start high on your first offer".

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12-11-2012, 10:07 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I also thought the 43% offer, with the five-year entry-level contracts, was counterproductive.

When times are good, why start with an insult?

The players started with a 54% offer coupled to a (100?) million dollar increase in revenue sharing. A fair offer. They didn't start off requesting 71% and working down because "in negotiations you always start high on your first offer".
I always thought that it was simple the player had 57%, the owners askedfor 43 %, why ? because the middle ground was 50 % and that's it.

Also, I thought that they choose the number to show to the players how they had to much of a share (seeing how they saw the deal I don't think it worked). Funny you call that an insult when that was the share the players had...

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12-11-2012, 10:07 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Well, I put more blame on Bettman than anyone here. I don't blame the players for being upset. You sign a contract and now the league wants to chop deals already signed for? That's ugly. And to make it worse Bettman's been a dick about the whole thing. If he'd started from the position that he's at now instead of the ridiculous offers he made at the beginning we'd be so much further ahead and probably would've had a full season. Instead he wanted a war.

Well, he got one...
word for word is how i feel about everything.

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12-11-2012, 10:14 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
I always thought that it was simple the player had 57%, the owners askedfor 43 %, why ? because the middle ground was 50 % and that's it.

Also, I thought that they choose the number to show to the players how they had to much of a share (seeing how they saw the deal I don't think it worked). Funny you call that an insult when that was the share the players had...
The players' 57% was relative to the 76% they had before the last lockout when a relatively free market system was in place. When the players agreed to a cap and spending cuts in 2005, they did so in order to nurture a stronger league, it was an interesting tradeoff.

Anyway there were a lot of other problems with the initial offer: 5-year entry level contracts (WTF ?!?!?!), immediate 25% rollback without make-whole after an orgy of summer spending, et cetera.

It should have been obvious this summer, from the orgy of spending and tons of players being signed a year early, that owners were up to something. In hindsight it's obvious, they were hoping to unilaterally lower the value of all those contracts and thus get their players at a discount. That was the strategy, but I don't think I saw a single poster on HFboards correctly call it.

Jeremy Jacobs was never planning to spend 6 million a year on Milan Lucic. People were correct to say he was overpaid. However, the true number in mind was 4 or 5 million a year post-rollout. Nice scam.

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