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Old
12-10-2012, 10:32 AM
  #176
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Its 4 losses in a row actually and they haven't won a game since November 25.

I don't think its too impressive either that an AHL allstar team that can put a complete NHL PP out on the ice has the same amount of Wins and losses to this point.

Of course concerns were abated when the team was winning some games. But the question still deserves to be asked is what are these players learning and how are they developing? Winning at this level should be gimme for this club. Losing 4 in a row is mysterious at best.

My fear, and others have expressed this as well, is we have some stars here learning to have real half ass efforts, irresponsible play, not looking after all the ice, and letting the opponents get great scoring chances. At the least this club should be learning how to win games right now. They seem to be learning the opposite.
Yeah if this season has proven anything it's that Nelson isn't even close to being an NHL coach so I'm glad he wasn't hired.

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12-10-2012, 10:43 AM
  #177
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Yes but don't you see the resemblence? They don't have any ******* support in the AHL and they won't have any support in the NHL. Teubert turns into Potter, Plante turns into Peckham, Arcobello turns into Horcoff, Lander turns into Belanger, MPS turns into Eager/Petrell. Same **** different pile.
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Yet somehow those depth guys were actually good last year.
Not sure if you guys are getting at this aspect but its somehting I'm worried about. That the youngturks may not always play well with others.

Great players are great to be with and improve the whole team atmosphere and attitude on and off the ice. They make those around them successful whether they are on the same line or not. Part of being team leaders in a team sport. It is at least a bit odd that our star players have resulted in OKC somehow being worse than they were last year and making several players look like they suddenly have warts.

Its not enough just to play your shift. It seldom is. Value the players around you and make them feel valued. Help them get results. Point them the right way.

No less than Wayne Gretzky did this, and with everybody. It pays dividends. Other than Hall I don't think these kids know the first thing about establishing a winning atmosphere.

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12-10-2012, 10:53 AM
  #178
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The problem is this isn't the same team as last year. Nelson has to try find a middle ground from the team he had last year to the one he has now. Last year he didn't have any sniper that is capable of scoring 50+ goals, he had a 21 goal guy and 24 goal guy. His best offensive d-man last year was Chorney and Helmer with 24 points, Schultz already has that.

Biggest issue seems to be defense and goaltending. I don't even think it's a problem with secondary scoring. They have 6 forwards that are going to get over 50 points this year with Arcobello not far behind.

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12-10-2012, 10:55 AM
  #179
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Not sure if you guys are getting at this aspect but its somehting I'm worried about. That the youngturks may not always play well with others.

Great players are great to be with and improve the whole team atmosphere and attitude on and off the ice. They make those around them successful whether they are on the same line or not. Part of being team leaders in a team sport. It is at least a bit odd that our star players have resulted in OKC somehow being worse than they were last year and making several players look like they suddenly have warts.

Its not enough just to play your shift. It seldom is. Value the players around you and make them feel valued. Help them get results. Point them the right way.

No less than Wayne Gretzky did this, and with everybody. It pays dividends. Other than Hall I don't think these kids know the first thing about establishing a winning atmosphere.
Once again, you're reading way too much into this and are being overly critical.
It needs to be reiterated again. These are still very young players, the fact that you are essentially calling them losers and selfish is beyond ridiculous.
If it wasn't for the NHLers, this team would be toast so to insinuate that the team isn't winning as much as you would like them to because of the NHLers is far out there even for you.

The fact of the matter is that the secondary players outside of Hartikainen have given jack **** to the team and the only vets on the blueline who were stalwarts last season (Plante and Teubert) have been awful which puts way too much of a burden on the rookies Schultz and Marincin who are starting to show major warts defensively and Danis is not good enough to protect against the defensive leaks.
Just like the big club, the fault lies with the veterans and too much pressure being placed on the youth. I know that you continuosly love to place the blame on Hall, RNH and Eberle but you're looking in the wrong place.

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12-10-2012, 10:58 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Once again, you're reading way too much into this and are being overly critical.
It needs to be reiterated again. These are still very young players, the fact that you are essentially calling them losers and selfish is beyond ridiculous.
If it wasn't for the NHLers, this team would be toast so to insinuate that the team isn't winning as much as you would like them to because of the NHLers is far out there even for you.

The fact of the matter is that the secondary players outside of Hartikainen have given jack **** to the team and the only vets on the blueline who were stalwarts last season (Plante and Teubert) have been awful which puts way too much of a burden on the rookies Schultz and Marincin who are starting to show major warts defensively.
Just like the big club, the fault lies with the veterans and too much pressure being placed on the youth. I know that you continuosly love to place the blame on Hall, RNH and Eberle but you're looking in the wrong place.
This.

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Old
12-10-2012, 11:12 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Once again, you're reading way too much into this and are being overly critical.
It needs to be reiterated again. These are still very young players, the fact that you are essentially calling them losers and selfish is beyond ridiculous.
If it wasn't for the NHLers, this team would be toast so to insinuate that the team isn't winning as much as you would like them to because of the NHLers is far out there even for you.

The fact of the matter is that the secondary players outside of Hartikainen have given jack **** to the team and the only vets on the blueline who were stalwarts last season (Plante and Teubert) have been awful which puts way too much of a burden on the rookies Schultz and Marincin who are starting to show major warts defensively and Danis is not good enough to protect against the defensive leaks.
Just like the big club, the fault lies with the veterans and too much pressure being placed on the youth. I know that you continuosly love to place the blame on Hall, RNH and Eberle but you're looking in the wrong place.
This is nonsense. I already acknowledged Hall as a leader. Do you ever think WHY the rest of the players are playing like they don't "give a ****"? You don't see that as a problem?

At different times last year we saw players like Hemsky, Smyth, Horc, Gagner, Gilbert, looking dissatisfied with where the team was at. Guys that lost interest as the season progressed because it was clear always the team was rarely on the same page, rarely came to play the team system, and were immune to cohesive system play.

A year later and a lower rung and the same stars are just as indifferent to playing any system or buying into team concept. With the same results only now more shocking as its happening in the AHL.

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12-10-2012, 11:40 AM
  #182
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Are you going to disappear and reappear every time a team wins a few and loses a few ?

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12-10-2012, 11:41 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
The problem is this isn't the same team as last year. Nelson has to try find a middle ground from the team he had last year to the one he has now. Last year he didn't have any sniper that is capable of scoring 50+ goals, he had a 21 goal guy and 24 goal guy. His best offensive d-man last year was Chorney and Helmer with 24 points, Schultz already has that.

Biggest issue seems to be defense and goaltending. I don't even think it's a problem with secondary scoring. They have 6 forwards that are going to get over 50 points this year with Arcobello not far behind.
Disagree. You are stats-watching too much. Last year's team was great at grinding and keeping the puck in the O-zone. It was a big team with O'Marra, Grant, Petrell, VV. Really hard to play against physically. Much of their success was puck possession even with their slow and horrible D who provided very limited offense.

EDIT: Harski is a beauty. He dominated games last season too, but then completely disappeared in others. Every game I've seen this season he's been pretty consistent.

People are only FINALLY realizing how bad Plante is. Geez, could have told you last season! You'll realize how useless Pitlick and Hamilton are too offensively even though they could be crash-and-bang 4th liners.

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12-10-2012, 11:43 AM
  #184
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Disagree. You are stats-watching too much. Last year's team was great at grinding and keeping the puck in the O-zone. It was a big team with O'Marra, Grant, Petrell, VV. Really hard to play against physically. Much of their success was puck possession even with their slow and horrible D who provided very limited offense.

People are only FINALLY realizing how bad Plante is. Geez, could have told you last season! You'll realize how useless Pitlick and Hamilton are too offensively even though they could be crash-and-bang 4th liners.
Kinda what I was getting at. Tight team that grinded out wins.

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12-10-2012, 11:52 AM
  #185
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Kinda what I was getting at. Tight team that grinded out wins.
Tight teams can grind out wins. Last years team top point guy was 49 points.

I can tell you last year that most Oiler fans here and on the Blogosphere were "upset" that they didn't put up more points. I mean they won alot but that was not good enough they wanted big numbers as well.

I think this team is probably better if they get some better goaltending. They might not win as much but they will put up numbers. I doubt anyone wants to play this team as it is in the playoffs. I know I wouldn't

The question is do Oiler fans want a Coyote like team in the minors that can grind out wins or do they want a offensive team that puts out numbers.

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12-10-2012, 11:55 AM
  #186
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This is nonsense. I already acknowledged Hall as a leader. Do you ever think WHY the rest of the players are playing like they don't "give a ****"? You don't see that as a problem?

At different times last year we saw players like Hemsky, Smyth, Horc, Gagner, Gilbert, looking dissatisfied with where the team was at. Guys that lost interest as the season progressed because it was clear always the team was rarely on the same page, rarely came to play the team system, and were immune to cohesive system play.

A year later and a lower rung and the same stars are just as indifferent to playing any system or buying into team concept. With the same results only now more shocking as its happening in the AHL.
Ok, so you basically called RNH and Eberle selfish players and losers.
The other players play like they don't give a damn (which i don't buy anyway) because maybe they don't give a damn, maybe it's their own fault for not playing well or maybe they're just not good enough?
Those aforementioned players are either not good enough, too old or just not a good fit with the team. How in the heck is that RNH and Eberle's fault?
So the failure of the others is because RNH and Eberle don't know how to lead and don't play well with others? If that's not what you're insinuating then i apologize but it sure seems like that's what you're saying.

I don't get this sky is falling crap anyway, it's not like the Barons have been horrible.
They could be better but it's not as bad as you're indicating.
The bottom line is that it's going to take a while for these guys to mesh, there are a lot of new faces in the lineup, and it's going to take the young guys a while to mature and get used to the grind of a full pro season in particular, Schultz and Marincin.

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12-10-2012, 12:04 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Ok, so you basically called RNH and Eberle selfish players and losers.
The other players play like they don't give a damn (which i don't buy anyway) because maybe they don't give a damn, maybe it's their own fault for not playing well or maybe they're just not good enough?
Those aforementioned players are either not good enough, too old or just not a good fit with the team. How in the heck is that RNH and Eberle's fault?
So the failure of the others is because RNH and Eberle don't know how to lead and don't play well with others? If that's not what you're insinuating then i apologize but it sure seems like that's what you're saying.

I don't get this sky is falling crap anyway, it's not like the Barons have been horrible.
They could be better but it's not as bad as you're indicating.
The bottom line is that it's going to take a while for these guys to mesh, there are a lot of new faces in the lineup, and it's going to take the young guys a while to mature and get used to the grind of a full pro season in particular, Schultz and Marincin.
We're back at the taking time phase? What it takes is commitment. Looks like the team established a bit of that on the roadtrip but the last couple games I've seen problems return to the overall game. For instance that we're content with trading chances, making really stupid plays, giving the puck up easily, and not respecting puck control like the OKC club did last year.

The major thing is that to be successful star players have to be accountable to every facet of the game and be responding to system play. We know full well last season the team would play its sytem rarely, would do well when they were buying in, and would struggle when they weren't.

Finding chemistry, meshing, fitting in shouldn't be a problem around Christmas time for any pro hockey club.

Let me know who you think is or isn't buying in and why.

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12-10-2012, 12:11 PM
  #188
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Vande Velde 19gp. 1-4-5
Byers 22gp. 2-3-5
Hamilton 18gp. 2-1-3
Lander 18gp. 2-0-2
Pitlick 16gp. 0-2-2
House 12gp. 1-0-1
Cornet 6gp. 0-0-0
Tyrvainen 9gp. 1-0-1
Plante 17gp. 0-1-1
Teubert 22gp. 1-1-2

How are RNH and Eberle responsible for these guys?

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12-10-2012, 12:15 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
We're back at the taking time phase? What it takes is commitment. Looks like the team established a bit of that on the roadtrip but the last couple games I've seen problems return to the overall game. For instance that we're content with trading chances, making really stupid plays, giving the puck up easily, and not respecting puck control like the OKC club did last year.

The major thing is that to be successful star players have to be accountable to every facet of the game and be responding to system play. We know full well last season the team would play its sytem rarely, would do well when they were buying in, and would struggle when they weren't.

Finding chemistry, meshing, fitting in shouldn't be a problem around Christmas time for any pro hockey club.

Let me know who you think is or isn't buying in and why.
You seem to be losing sight of the fact that these are very young players still in the development stage who are being asked to carry the entire load of a pro team so there are still going to be mistakes. Despite these mistakes, they are still amongst the leaders in scoring and have a high +/- ratio so they are obviously doing something right.
Also, you rag on RNH and Eberle yet Hall turns the puck over more than both of them and is still having an issue staying on his skates. His wipeout in the offensive zone led directly to the GWG yesterday.
The point is that the Oilers failures of the last couple of seasons and the Barons supposed struggles this season are not the fault of these young, budding superstars and for you to pin it on them is completely unfair.

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12-10-2012, 12:24 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
You seem to be losing sight of the fact that these are very young players still in the development stage who are being asked to carry the entire load of a pro team so there are still going to be mistakes. Despite these mistakes, they are still amongst the leaders in scoring and have a high +/- ratio so they are obviously doing something right.
Also, you rag on RNH and Eberle yet Hall turns the puck over more than both of them and is still having an issue staying on his skates. His wipeout in the offensive zone led directly to the GWG yesterday.
The point is that the Oilers failures of the last couple of seasons and the Barons supposed struggles this season are not the fault of these young, budding superstars and for you to pin it on them is completely unfair.
I think you've mistaken my take. I'm not making conclusions, I'm asking questions. Serious questions should be asked right about now.

Are you satisfied with how this club is playing right now. Are you satisfied with the lack of teamwork and team results?

I'm not sure whats wrong with the team. But it is awfully curious that a team that is a lot better on paper is a lot worse on the ice.

You know I'm a firm believer in system play and that it drives me nuts to see players play as individuals. I'm saying its going on and shouldn't be. Leadership would be players getting together and getting on the same page. Who should be providing that leadership right now? Is that a fair question?

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12-10-2012, 01:56 PM
  #191
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Yet somehow those depth guys were actually good last year.
some of it was that they were getting better offensive minutes last year. Put Hamilton, Pitlick and Arco on the first unit and they would be putting up better numbers than last year.

Plante was an AHL allstar last year.. Teubert not any worse... Danis is an above average AHL goalie.

There is no denying that on paper this is a powerhouse AHL team but has not found a way to be consistently good.

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12-10-2012, 02:00 PM
  #192
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You seem to be losing sight of the fact that these are very young players still in the development stage who are being asked to carry the entire load of a pro team so there are still going to be mistakes. Despite these mistakes, they are still amongst the leaders in scoring and have a high +/- ratio so they are obviously doing something right.
Also, you rag on RNH and Eberle yet Hall turns the puck over more than both of them and is still having an issue staying on his skates. His wipeout in the offensive zone led directly to the GWG yesterday.
The point is that the Oilers failures of the last couple of seasons and the Barons supposed struggles this season are not the fault of these young, budding superstars and for you to pin it on them is completely unfair.
sad part is that we were hoping for these same young players to carry our entire NHL team this year and be a playoffs contender. We need a different approach because adding a Yakupov or Mckinnon is not going to make much difference.
Oilers need veteran(s) who can lead the team by example.

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12-10-2012, 02:55 PM
  #193
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Vande Velde 19gp. 1-4-5
Byers 22gp. 2-3-5
Hamilton 18gp. 2-1-3
Lander 18gp. 2-0-2
Pitlick 16gp. 0-2-2
House 12gp. 1-0-1
Cornet 6gp. 0-0-0
Tyrvainen 9gp. 1-0-1
Plante 17gp. 0-1-1
Teubert 22gp. 1-1-2

How are RNH and Eberle responsible for these guys?

That is pretty god damn brutal. Clearly not a lot of NHLers in that list, sadly.

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12-10-2012, 03:08 PM
  #194
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Pitlick can still be an NHL player I'm pretty sure, Dwight King and Jordan Nolan were not offensive options at the AHL level but were valuable contributors at the NHL level and in the playoffs because they are big and can hold the puck and are great at grinding. Can see Pitlick going to a third/fourth line winger role playing a good role eating minutes in the future.

He's probably just not going to be that 2nd line Kesler-type centre we thought his upside was when he was drafted, to get an NHLer of any value out of a 2nd round pick is still beating the odds though.

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12-10-2012, 04:08 PM
  #195
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Dwight King was taken 109th.

Jordan Nolan was taken 186th.

Tyler Pitlick was taken 31st.

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12-10-2012, 04:28 PM
  #196
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Dwight King was taken 109th.

Jordan Nolan was taken 186th.

Tyler Pitlick was taken 31st.
...and Alex Daigle was taken 1st overall.

Seriously what the hell does your post represent in response to what the earlier poster laid out?

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12-10-2012, 07:03 PM
  #197
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Watched the Barons post game interview vids and noticed the huge baseball-pitcher like ice wrapping on Taylor Hall's shoulder.

I realize he isnt far removed from his surgery but to be already doing this at such a young age is not a great sign.

Can anyone offer some words of calming solace? I dont want to worry about this for the next 7 years.

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12-10-2012, 08:23 PM
  #198
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Watched the Barons post game interview vids and noticed the huge baseball-pitcher like ice wrapping on Taylor Hall's shoulder.

I realize he isnt far removed from his surgery but to be already doing this at such a young age is not a great sign.

Can anyone offer some words of calming solace? I dont want to worry about this for the next 7 years.
Ice is hte best drug.

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12-10-2012, 09:10 PM
  #199
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Outside of Hall's (5), RNH's (8), Eberle's (14), Schultz' (11), and Hartikainen's (7) 45 combined goals these are our goal scorers:

Arcobello 6
Paajarvi 3
Marincin 3
Fedun 2
Byers 2
Hamilton 2
Lander 2
Vande Velde 1
Green 1
Tyrvainen 1
House 1
Rajala 1
Teubert 1

Combined 26 goals, subtract Arcobello's 6 and you're talking 20 goals combined for 12 of our 18 goal scorers this year.

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12-10-2012, 09:37 PM
  #200
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Its like points are correlated with ice time or something

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