Outside of Hall's (5), RNH's (8), Eberle's (14), Schultz' (11), and Hartikainen's (7) 45 combined goals these are our goal scorers:
Arcobello 6
Paajarvi 3
Marincin 3
Fedun 2
Byers 2
Hamilton 2
Lander 2
Vande Velde 1
Green 1
Tyrvainen 1
House 1
Rajala 1
Teubert 1
Combined 26 goals, subtract Arcobello's 6 and you're talking 20 goals combined for 12 of our 18 goal scorers this year.
if you subtract Paajarvi and Marincin it looks even worse, take out Fedun, Byer Lander and Hamilton and it looks like a team of 4th liners and injury replacements...
Its like points are correlated with ice time or something
Yeah, I mean all of those guys play like 3-4 minutes a night at ES while the other guys get 40 minutes at ES a night It should be pretty obvious to those that watch the Barons that Nelson likes to roll all 4 lines at ES.
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if you subtract Paajarvi and Marincin it looks even worse, take out Fedun, Byer Lander and Hamilton and it looks like a team of 4th liners and injury replacements...
The thing is that we really don't have any goons per se except for Abney so 4th liners or not we should be seeing more production than 1 point every 10 games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nabob
imagine that eh?
Except for Schultz. Dude could score from the pressbox.
Schultz IMO has been overworked a bit and it's starting to show as he seems to not be as sharp mentally as he has been all year long. Nelson is going to need to figure out something in terms of his defense and spelling Schultz some minutes.
3 high ranked prospects from sweden(prv,omark,lander) who had/has a very good reputation there, came over and has gone down the ladder in a kamikaze style of way. we must be one of the worst team in the nhl to develop prospects!
European players require a lot more patience than North American players do. They need to learn them game and translate their skill set into it and figure out what it is they do best.
3 high ranked prospects from sweden(prv,omark,lander) who had/has a very good reputation there, came over and has gone down the ladder in a kamikaze style of way. we must be one of the worst team in the nhl to develop prospects!
Have we developed any guys to perform well past their expectations? (not a leading question or anything, legitimately asking)
I think Eberle could be a success - certainly looking better than a 22nd overall pick. But it's still early. Other than him? Hartikainen if he makes it, Petry looks OK, but he was a mid 2nd and a college all star - has he significantly surpassed expectations? Hemsky has been good, but he was a 13th overall pick, so I think he would be about what you would expect.
Have we developed any guys to perform well past their expectations? (not a leading question or anything, legitimately asking)
I think Eberle could be a success - certainly looking better than a 22nd overall pick. But it's still early. Other than him? Hartikainen if he makes it, Petry looks OK, but he was a mid 2nd and a college all star - has he significantly surpassed expectations? Hemsky has been good, but he was a 13th overall pick, so I think he would be about what you would expect.
I would say not really, other than a few exceptions and usually they end up much lower than expectations, which is probably the general rule anyway, but there can be no doubt that we are where we are in large part because of failures in scouting/development. And that goes way back to the early nineties or late eighties.
I would say not really, other than a few exceptions and usually they end up much lower than expectations, which is probably the general rule anyway, but there can be no doubt that we are where we are in large part because of failures in scouting/development. And that goes way back to the early nineties or late eighties.
Players always look alot better on good teams. We havent had a good team, in fact its been terrible, so our prospects look terrible.
That coupled with fans always have unrealistic expectations, either really high or really low, and bingo, "none of our prospects ever pan out".
Players always look alot better on good teams. We havent had a good team, in fact its been terrible, so our prospects look terrible.
That coupled with fans always have unrealistic expectations, either really high or really low, and bingo, "none of our prospects ever pan out".
I don't follow many other teams' player development - but there's no denying that the Wings have had many players surpass expectations. Guys like Holmstrom, Zetterberg, and Datsyuk obviously. Lidstrom a 3rd rounder turned into arguable one of the top 3 dmen in the history of the game. So did these guys surpass expectations because they played on a good team, or were the Wings a good team because their players surpassed expectations?
Players always look alot better on good teams. We havent had a good team, in fact its been terrible, so our prospects look terrible.
That coupled with fans always have unrealistic expectations, either really high or really low, and bingo, "none of our prospects ever pan out".
How many other teams have had draft years where not one pick ever played an nhl game? I dont see how fan expectations has anything to do with it.
Either the organization is good at recruiting and developing pro talent or they arent, or maybe they fall somewhere in the middle. I think its safe to say we are at the low end.
The Leafs and Islanders would be two other examples of low end recruitment and development.
3 high ranked prospects from sweden(prv,omark,lander) who had/has a very good reputation there, came over and has gone down the ladder in a kamikaze style of way. we must be one of the worst team in the nhl to develop prospects!
Maybe it's all hype.
Maybe some of these lower end Swedes aren't as good as people make them out to be
Players always look alot better on good teams. We havent had a good team, in fact its been terrible, so our prospects look terrible.
That coupled with fans always have unrealistic expectations, either really high or really low, and bingo, "none of our prospects ever pan out".
That's a development problem and is why this is a bad team.
The idea is to surround these prospects with capable veterans so that they don't have to carry the load and can have protection in the lineup.
This is why guys like Hemsky never reached their full potential and why Gagner and Cogliano stagnated shortly thereafter and why guys like Stoll and Torres stagnated after the cup run. The same thing is now happening with Paajarvi, Lander etc. Guys who were rushed before they were ready because they were being asked to do much too soon due to there being openings on the roster which should have been filled by capable vets.
Petry was starting to head down this road as well before his unexpected improvement last season. Good thing that Smid also improved at the same time so they had each other to depend on.
Guys like Hall, RNH and Eberle were bound to succeed regardless of their surroundings because it's virtually impossible for guys that talented to not succeed.
This has been an ongoing problem with the Oilers for about a decade. The pro scouting along with prospect development has been atrocious and is something that needs to be fixed if this team wants to take the next step and have these secondary guys succeed.
3 high ranked prospects from sweden(prv,omark,lander) who had/has a very good reputation there, came over and has gone down the ladder in a kamikaze style of way. we must be one of the worst team in the nhl to develop prospects!
Or maybe the quality of competition in the Elitserien is overrated, and investing in draft picks from that league is a relatively poor bet.
It's readily apparent that all 3 players have major flaws in their skill sets that can't just be glossed over as "poor development". The Oilers have needed a coach who understands the concept of roles on a hockey team(or maybe a coach that can get people to buy into those roles), and there has been some mishandling - but neither reason is a primary factor in PVR/Omark/Lander's lack of success in north america.
Or maybe the quality of competition in the Elitserien is overrated, and investing in draft picks from that league is a relatively poor bet.
It's readily apparent that all 3 players have major flaws in their skill sets that can't just be glossed over as "poor development". The Oilers have needed a coach who understands the concept of roles on a hockey team(or maybe a coach that can get people to buy into those roles), and there has been some mishandling - but neither reason is a primary factor in PVR/Omark/Lander's lack of success in north america.
Its a huge reason. If you dont know what is expected of you, you start second guessing yourself instead of just playing the game, you cant focus, you lose confidence. Its a downward spiral. Weve seen the same thing happen with Gagner at the pro level.
These kids are rushed into situations and are counted on to produce before they are ready. There is no real debate about that if you are being honest.
Its a huge reason. If you dont know what is expected of you, you start second guessing yourself instead of just playing the game, you cant focus, you lose confidence. Its a downward spiral. Weve seen the same thing happen with Gagner at the pro level.
These kids are rushed into situations and are counted on to produce before they are ready. There is no real debate about that if you are being honest.
Lander wasn't exactly expected to produce. He was put exactly where I thought he'd end up as a NHLer and did not too bad as a rookie 4th liner. Granted I thought he should've started in the AHL I don't think he was put in way over his head and expected to do things like PRV.
Omark, what role was he put in that was over his head? 1st line AHL winger?
What you said with your last paragraph is why I can't understand why people want to continue to move vets(Jones), so that young unproven players can play.
This has been an ongoing problem with the Oilers for about a decade. The pro scouting along with prospect development has been atrocious and is something that needs to be fixed if this team wants to take the next step and have these secondary guys succeed.
A decade? After Fuhr in 81 and Tikannen in 83, here are the best players we've drafted, that were actually good with the Oilers - guys that I would say surpassed expectations:
Buchberger in 85 (188th)
Arnott - 7th overall pick, Calder finalist, but like many others, didn't seem to get much better while an Oiler.
Smyth - 6th overall pick. I'd say that's about what I expect from someone picked there - but even in his case, his 39 goals in his first full season is still a career high.
Pisani - good 3rd liner for someone picked 195th
Rucinsky, Maltby, Satan all did OK with new teams.
LOL @ the 1990 draft. 11 picks, 0 NHL games played.
A decade? After Fuhr in 81 and Tikannen in 83, here are the best players we've drafted, that were actually good with the Oilers - guys that I would say surpassed expectations:
Buchberger in 85 (188th)
Arnott - 7th overall pick, Calder finalist, but like many others, didn't seem to get much better while an Oiler.
Smyth - 6th overall pick. I'd say that's about what I expect from someone picked there - but even in his case, his 39 goals in his first full season is still a career high.
Pisani - good 3rd liner for someone picked 195th
Rucinsky, Maltby, Satan all did OK with new teams.
LOL @ the 1990 draft. 11 picks, 0 NHL games played.
My bad. I meant to say decadeS.
Actually, there was a time in the late 90s-early 00s when the Oilers were solid at developing players (although it was mostly through trades from other teams) but a lot of guys had career seasons here before they had to be dealt due to financial limitations or other issues. Weight, Guerin, Arnott, Comrie, Carter, Grier, Brewer, Mironov were all guys who had some of their best years with the Oilers so player development was fine during that stretch. The drafting left a lot to be desired but the Oilers were a good farm team for the rest of the league.
My bad. I meant to say decadeS.
Actually, there was a time in the late 90s-early 00s when the Oilers were solid at developing players (although it was mostly through trades from other teams) but a lot of guys had career seasons here before they had to be dealt due to financial limitations or other issues. Weight, Guerin, Arnott, Comrie, Carter, Grier, Brewer, Mironov were all guys who had some of their best years with the Oilers so player development was fine during that stretch. The drafting left a lot to be desired but the Oilers were a good farm team for the rest of the league.
This.
Sure we couldn't draft worth a crap, but we were able to find gems to make up for that in trades. The problem is since Slats has left, we haven't found too many young gems via trade.
Last edited by joestevens29: 12-11-2012 at 10:11 AM.
My bad. I meant to say decadeS.
Actually, there was a time in the late 90s-early 00s when the Oilers were solid at developing players (although it was mostly through trades from other teams) but a lot of guys had career seasons here before they had to be dealt due to financial limitations or other issues. Weight, Guerin, Arnott, Comrie, Carter, Grier, Brewer, Mironov were all guys who had some of their best years with the Oilers so player development was fine during that stretch. The drafting left a lot to be desired but the Oilers were a good farm team for the rest of the league.
Other teams developed those players for the most part.
Especially the good ones like Weight and Guerin. Comrie was good when he got here.
Sure we couldn't draft worth a crap, but we were able to find gems to make up for that in trades. The problem is since Slats has left, we haven't found too many young gems via trade.
We traded off our best players for those "gems". Then we repeated the cycle with the gems when they became our best players. Until we pretty much let all the sand sift through our fingers and were left with nothing.
MPS and Omark were poorly handled. They should have both started in the AHL and stayed there until they were ready to play at least a 3rd line roll.
I think Lander has been developed more appropriately. He was always going to be, at best, a depth centre/PK specialist and they have done a decent job of correctly setting his expectations. I don't think playing a significant amount of time on the Oilers' 4th line hurt him at all last season and he should be fine to slot in there again in 2014. If he magically develops more chemistry with MPS and some scoring touch he could still be a very good 3C.
Its a huge reason. If you dont know what is expected of you, you start second guessing yourself instead of just playing the game, you cant focus, you lose confidence. Its a downward spiral. Weve seen the same thing happen with Gagner at the pro level.
These kids are rushed into situations and are counted on to produce before they are ready. There is no real debate about that if you are being honest.
It's not all on the coaching or lack of confidence. Paajarvi's lack of hockey sense and Lander's lack of talent were hinted at before the Oilers even drafted them and is a huge reason for their lack of success thus far. They have years of training ahead of them before they are an asset to an NHL coach at this point no matter what. Neither have been relied upon for much in their time as Oilers either, and have spent most of the last calendar year in the AHL anyways. So saying they were/are rushed is iffy at best.
If they are suffering from a crisis of confidence and it cripples their careers as you suggest(it's a bit early though), then maybe they just aren't cut out to be NHL hockey players anyways. It happens, NHL careers tends to be short, and majority of players drafted don't make it.
It should be pretty obvious to those that watch the Barons that Nelson likes to roll all 4 lines at ES.
