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Leafs ranked 20th by Hockey's Future.

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12-11-2012, 07:21 AM
  #351
Disgruntled Observer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7even View Post
Counterpoint:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant
Nashville has a strength in goaltending
Magnus Hellberg - 7.0 D
Marek Mazanec - 7.0 D
Jeremy Smith - 6.5 C
Chet Pickard - 6.5 D

Toronto has a weakness in top end goaltending
Mark Owuya - 7.0 C
Garrett Sparks - 7.0 D
Jussi Rynnas - 7.0 D
Ben Scrivens - 6.5 B

Similar, but based on those rankings one could definitely give Toronto an edge in goaltending, yet for us it's a weakness but Nashville has it as a strength.
Yup not contrived or arbitrary at all these guys sure know what's up.

Yup not contrived or arbitrary at all these guys sure know what's up.
Nowhere does the hf write up say that the Nashville goaltenders are a "strength". It doesn't say anything about the Nashville goaltenders.

Grant was lying when he said that.

Check it out for yourself.
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...all-positions/

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12-11-2012, 09:27 AM
  #352
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All prospects are suspects until they can prove they can perform as regulars in the NHL. Only when "play the kids" is put into effect in TO will we truly see what the current prospect pool holds.

Season or not the Leafs are well positioned to be expecting to select high again in the upcoming draft and that will improve the prospect pool strength by the addition of the new arrivals.

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12-11-2012, 10:15 AM
  #353
7even
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
The hockey news rankings (created by consensus of professional nhl scouts) also ranked the leafs 20th on their last ranking.

I guess they're biased as well?

So you're right, nobody else other than leaf fans can see it, and every one that disagrees is biased or part of a conspiracy.
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
A juvenile form of argumentation is to simply move the goalposts when bested in argument. That's most likely what just happened.
Looks like we just agreed for the first time.

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12-11-2012, 10:20 AM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Nowhere does the hf write up say that the Nashville goaltenders are a "strength". It doesn't say anything about the Nashville goaltenders.

Grant was lying when he said that.

Check it out for yourself.
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...all-positions/
I recommend you take your own advice before calling people liars http://www.hockeysfuture.com/teams/nashville_predators/

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12-11-2012, 10:21 AM
  #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Nowhere does the hf write up say that the Nashville goaltenders are a "strength". It doesn't say anything about the Nashville goaltenders.

Grant was lying when he said that.

Check it out for yourself.
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...all-positions/
On that page they don't have goaltending as a strength but they do on Nashville's prospect page.

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/teams/nashville_predators/

Edit: I see I was beat to it

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Old
12-11-2012, 10:51 AM
  #356
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Joe Colborne boosts us up the rankings. you need to be able to skate.

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Old
12-11-2012, 11:05 AM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Yeah but you don't know that. Again with the crystal ball predictions!

You don't know a) that the leafs will start winning and b) that he will be here when that happens

I'm sorry but you just don't. I dont assume the prospects the Bruins got will be there for life. I just go by what I see happen before my eyes. The Bruins have won the Cup after trading Kessel and the Leafs have been one of the worst teams in the league since trading for Kessel while giving up a 2nd...9th overall draft picks.

I suspect it will be a ridiculously awful move when its all said and done but thats just an educated guess. So far the Leafs have been the worst team in the league since it happened and Boston got rich in prospects and won a CUp.Those are the results so far.

All I know is that I dont see ONE SINGLE BRUINS FAN complaining about that.
So I can't say the Leafs are gonna win, but you can say that they will continously suck?

FYI, I already know that Kessel is a quality asset and has done more than anything that we got in the past trades combined.

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12-11-2012, 11:20 AM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Again, you can keep repeating it BUT YOU DO NOT KNOW.You can't tell the future.

Please acknowledge this.


Notice how you are ignoring my entire post and just reverting back to this fallacious AND INVALID point. I repeat SO FALLACIOUS AND SO INVALID!
Actually we do, you're the one who doesn't get it. Even if Kessel isn't here for much longer, he's still done more for our team than what we got in the other deals which is what we've been arguing. If you're still confused go look up what we got in the other deals and compare them to what Kessel has done. Even if we traded Kessel after his first season with us he would have done more than anything that we got in return for the other trades.

As for your point about Raycroft, did you see how many games he played? He played 72 games and only had 37 wins, that's pretty mediocre. If he was actually good then he would've been able to muster up at least 3-4 more wins and secured us a playoff spot.

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12-11-2012, 01:33 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
No not at all ridiculous. If Kessel is here long-term then it will be more even. If he is not, then the trade could easily be worse. Easily, too.

kurvers for niedermayer

seguin hamilton knight for kessel


Since you and I can not tell the future we will have to wait and see. the worst case scenario happened before. it could happen again. kessel left boston for a big contract. he could leave toronto for a big contract.

we dont know though. we just have the results so far to judge and so far the leafs have been a **** team with him here.
What did we give up to the Islanders to get a washed up Wendel back, I know one of the picks was Loungo who were the others?

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12-11-2012, 03:46 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Prove it.
The threads are still there for anyone to see...

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12-11-2012, 04:21 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by The Blue Devil View Post
Doubt it. He was the type to call people out on ridicoulus statements, not one to really care how many posts a person had.
Don't be so sure.

Most of the times, his pleasure seemed to try to find/create opportunities to make snide remarks.

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12-11-2012, 04:40 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
(...)

Because my only issues are that it appears that certain teams get preferential rankings, and most hockey people agree Rielly is an awesome talent but Toronto gets no respect.

That and the criteria is bogus. Teams get rewarded for having prospects that aren't good enough to make the NHL at a young age. Oh wait Kadri is a scrub. LEafs Prospects don't get that. But Nyquist is a fraking all-star in the making. See... makes no sense.
There's an enormous difference between making a perennial playoff team and failing to make a team finishing 5th last.

But I guess you know that and chose to sweep it under the rug.

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12-11-2012, 04:40 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
Don't be so sure.

Most of the times, his pleasure seemed to try to find/create opportunities to make snide remarks.
I'm not denying that, I was just saying that he wasn't the type to use someone's post count against them.

His remarks also made this place enjoyable.

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12-11-2012, 04:44 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
There's an enormous difference between making a perennial playoff team and failing to make a team finishing 5th last.

But I guess you know that and chose to sweep it under the rug.
That is not the point.

IT seems like there is a bias in the rankings.

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12-11-2012, 04:44 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Saying that the Kessel trade is worse than say the Neidermeyer trade is essentially saying that Seguin is better than Kessel and Hamilton is better than Neidermeyer.

As we all know, that claim is ridiculous.


"As we all know"?

Wishing/writing that Nigeria is in South America will not make it so.

As to your first paragraph, I repeat:

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12-11-2012, 04:53 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
NIce hyperbole.

All it shows is that the LEafs get shafted whil other team get thier ***** kissed.
While attempting to ridicule him, you did not answer his question.

Is Hockey News also biased?

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12-11-2012, 04:57 PM
  #367
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
While attempting to ridicule him, you did not answer his question.

Is Hockey News also biased?
Where was the attempt to ridicule him?

I'll look later. But did they rate Tornto's goalies higher than another teams and then say it was a weakness for Toronto and a strength for the other team?

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12-11-2012, 04:57 PM
  #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Nowhere does the hf write up say that the Nashville goaltenders are a "strength". It doesn't say anything about the Nashville goaltenders.

Grant was lying when he said that.

Check it out for yourself.
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...all-positions/
He was not:

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/teams/nashville_predators/

Quote:
Strengths

* Strong character players
* Goaltending

Weaknesses

* Top-six forwards

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Old
12-11-2012, 05:10 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by Grant View Post
On that page they don't have goaltending as a strength but they do on Nashville's prospect page.

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/teams/nashville_predators/

Edit: I see I was beat to it
Ok. You weren't lying. Sorry about that.

I'm not saying these rankings are gospel... but they are a great benchmark.

Why is it that ALL these ranking sites think the leafs prospects are very mediocre?
Don't you find that strange?

It's pretty much just leaf fans that think our prospects are anything better than average.

I think it's MUCH more likely that most leaf fans just won't accept the reality of the situation than there is some grand conspiracy by all the ranking sites.

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12-11-2012, 05:21 PM
  #370
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Ok. You weren't lying. Sorry about that.

I'm not saying these rankings are gospel... but they are a great benchmark.

Why is it that ALL these ranking sites think the leafs prospects are very mediocre?
Don't you find that strange?

It's pretty much just leaf fans that think our prospects are anything better than average.

I think it's MUCH more likely that most leaf fans just won't accept the reality of the situation than there is some grand conspiracy by all the ranking sites.
Yet you refused to acknowledge them when they were top 10.....

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12-11-2012, 05:36 PM
  #371
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
The threads are still there for anyone to see...
Yeah, and they don't say what he claims they do.

So I want him to prove it, for once.

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12-11-2012, 05:38 PM
  #372
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post


"As we all know"?

Wishing/writing that Nigeria is in South America will not make it so.

As to your first paragraph, I repeat:
I am not sure what you do not understand.

Unless one is saying that Hamilton is or will be better than Neidermeyer, which is flat-out ridiculous to assume, then the Kessel trade is not worse.

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12-11-2012, 05:56 PM
  #373
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Ok. You weren't lying. Sorry about that.

I'm not saying these rankings are gospel... but they are a great benchmark.

Why is it that ALL these ranking sites think the leafs prospects are very mediocre?
Don't you find that strange?

It's pretty much just leaf fans that think our prospects are anything better than average.

I think it's MUCH more likely that most leaf fans just won't accept the reality of the situation than there is some grand conspiracy by all the ranking sites.
Again as I have said before. My problem is not where the leafs are ranked, my problem lies within the consistency. Someone like Chicago, by HFs rankings, has extremely similar individual prospect rankings. I did a comparison in the early goings of this thread. Yet Chicago is ranked 9th. What I'm looking for is Toronto to be around 9th or Chicago to be around 20th due to the similarities.

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12-11-2012, 06:19 PM
  #374
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Yet DET is ranked 10th with a guy who is a year older and puts up similar numbers as Kadri as their #2 prospect, and a guy half as good as Gardiner as their #1.
I dunno if Detroit should be 10th, but saying Smith is half as good as Gardiner is laughable. Detroit and Toronto fans wont agree on much but in the NCAA Smith was the more dominant of the 2 and babcock said he wanted him on Detroit last season but Holland wouldn't let him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Even Gardiner as good as he is, is probably not as good as Rielly.

DET's best D prospect is Brendan Smith. I beg you to PLEASE make an argument was to why he is as good or better than Rielly. Pretty please with a cherry on top, tell me why Smith is better than Rielly.

I have been saying all along Nyquist is not much different than Kadri. But Nyquist must be a future allstar to get DET to 10th overall, while Kadri is a bust to drag TOR down to 20th.
Noone will make an argument for Smith over Rielly, but Smith is looking to be as good as Gardiner but with a mean streak on top. Hes not a better prospect then Rielly but Smith is also very polished and clearly going to step into the NHL and do well. A lot could still happen with Rielly.

You need to watch these players to know whos ebetter, you clearly havent watched Nyquist. He and Kadri dont play the same game at all. Nyquist is a very good defensive player and has the offensive game to match Kadri. In Nyquists second year in the NCAA he put up the same points per game as Kadris most dominant junior season. He did that playing against much older players, in a lower scoring league and while having a great two way game


Quote:
Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Smith is essentially all about scoring points, something he has not even excelled at on the AHL level, so it is much easier with him.
Thats not true either. Its part of the reason Detroit kept him down so long, they want him to be that two way guy and not only about getting points. Now he puts up points, is the go to defensive player and pretty damn tough as well
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Look, Detroit is ranked 10th on the strength of two 23yr olds. Toronto has an elite 18yr old and a 22yr old who is as good as the Wings #2 prospect but Toronto is ranked 20th.

They even admitted Detroit has no goaltending prospects, but Toronto has 3 or 4 depending on how you want to count. BUt Detroit is ranked 10 spots ahead of Toronto
Age of the prospects doesnt matter, theyre considered prospects based on the criteria of the ranking. Its also how Detroit operates, they cant draft the Riellys and Kadris at 5th overall so they take guys that need to have their game ironed out. The same thing happened to Kronwall, Datsyuk, Zetterberg.

I consider Mrazek to be a pretty awesome goalie prospect as well.

Look I dont think Toronto has a bad prospect pool but theyre also a young team, most of their top young guns are already on the leafs so being lower in the prospect rankings isnt a bad thing.

But outside of Rielly the leafs dont have an amazing blue chip prospect either. Kadri has a tonne of question marks and theres just as many leaf fans who think hes a bust as think he'll be a top 6 player. Colborne hasn't been good. Frattin is a scorer for sure but seems more like a third liner. Outside of Rielly is a lot of question marks.

Detroit doesnt have the Rielly level prospect, but they have 2 high calibre top line/top pairing type prospects that are better then anything else Toronto has. Mrazeks just as good as any goalie Toronto has. Sproul and Ouellet are probably also better than any other dmen Toronto has besides Rielly (Finn could be there though). Its not ridiculous to say Detroits prospects are better because after Rielly Detroit has a clear advantage, you should learn more about their prospects before comparing Kadri and Nyquist or saying Smith is half as good as Gardiner. But like I said with such a young team its also because of young guys already being on the rsoter which Detroit doesnt have

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12-11-2012, 06:20 PM
  #375
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Again as I have said before. My problem is not where the leafs are ranked, my problem lies within the consistency. Someone like Chicago, by HFs rankings, has extremely similar individual prospect rankings. I did a comparison in the early goings of this thread. Yet Chicago is ranked 9th. What I'm looking for is Toronto to be around 9th or Chicago to be around 20th due to the similarities.
So you don't think that it's "strange" that ALL the hockey ranking sites collectively think the leafs prospects are mediocre.
Please find me a rankings list that shows the leafs having elite prospects. I mean, i hear leaf fans (and only leaf fans) constantly claim how great our prospects are since Burke's arrive.
Is there anybody that's impartial that agrees with this?
Or just leaf fans?

Here's what's happening...
the leafs have been terrible since Brian Burke arrived. Leaf fans are famous for defending their GM to the death until the very day he's fired. They did it with Quinn, JFJ, Fletcher, and are doing it now with Burke.
Being that the leafs have been so ridiculously terrible under Burke, leaf fans have resorted to saying "Yeah... well... uh... he's dramatically improved our prospects!!!!!

Leaf fan realists than use their blessed skills of impartiality and say "uh... really? Because our prospects look entirely mediocre".

Then then the hockey news, HF, and everybody else makes their ranking lists. ALL of them agree with leaf fan realists. The leafs prospects are utterly mediocre.

Burke supporters (the only people in the world that think the leafs prospects are any good) then rely on petty tricks and trivialities to defend themselves.
"But hey... I think our prospects are better than Chicago's and Detroits. And that proves that ALL prospects rankings are wrong. Leafs fans are correct. They know better than ALL those nhl scouts and professionals that make those lists."

If you really think that you're being fair and impartial about the leafs prospects at this point... then I really just don't know what to say...

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