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Old
12-16-2012, 10:56 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by penguins2946 View Post
13-14 season. Assuming this one gets canceled with all of the legal BS that's happening
I think it's unlikely that we go with 2 rookies on defense, I think Tangradi ends up on the bottom line with Adams as the 13th forward and a free agent playing with Bennett and Crosby.

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12-16-2012, 10:58 AM
  #152
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I think it's unlikely that we go with 2 rookies on defense, I think Tangradi ends up on the bottom line with Adams as the 13th forward and a free agent playing with Bennett and Crosby.
I don't count Despres as a rookie anymore, and Bylsma said that he would be playing along Letang this year at the rookie camp over the summer. There's no reason to think that won't be true next year. And my other idea was to put Tangradi on the 3rd line where Dupuis is and put Duper on Sid's line. And Tangradi being put on the 4th line is the issue right now.

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12-16-2012, 10:59 AM
  #153
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I don't know how crazy I would be with that lineup. And that really isn't to say you have it too far off the mark, either.

The team still very much needs another legitimate scoring option in the top six and another competent defenseman. Preferably one who knows his way around his own end, in the dirty areas of the ice and in front of his own net.

Though I suppose it isn't really worth discussing in depth until we have a clearer idea of what the financial landscape will be when and if this entire mess is sorted out.

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12-16-2012, 11:00 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
I don't know how crazy I would be with that lineup. And that really isn't to say you have it too far off the mark, either.

The team still very much needs another legitimate scoring option in the top six and another competent defenseman. Preferably one who knows his way around his own end, in the dirty areas of the ice and in front of his own net.

Though I suppose it isn't really worth discussing in depth until we have a clearer idea of what the financial landscape will be when and if this entire mess is sorted out.
I'd love to have Ryan Clowe on this team.

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12-16-2012, 11:03 AM
  #155
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I certainly wouldn't complain.

For a change.

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Old
12-16-2012, 11:03 AM
  #156
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I'd love to have Ryan Clowe on this team.
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

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12-16-2012, 11:06 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
I don't know how crazy I would be with that lineup. And that really isn't to say you have it too far off the mark, either.

The team still very much needs another legitimate scoring option in the top six and another competent defenseman. Preferably one who knows his way around his own end, in the dirty areas of the ice and in front of his own net.

Though I suppose it isn't really worth discussing in depth until we have a clearer idea of what the financial landscape will be when and if this entire mess is sorted out.
Yeah I see what you mean. On that D group, there really isn't a lot of toughness and grittiness outside of Orpik. Maybe Dumoulin, but that's a significant drop off. I'd rather see us trade Niskanen, like in another Gogo and Whitney situation. Who knows, maybe we could get a top-6 winger for Niskanen. Or sign someone like Clowe or Iginla.

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12-16-2012, 11:14 AM
  #158
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I don't know how quickly I would be willing to part with the team's second best (by a longshot, IMO) defenseman from last season. Obviously it could have been something of a fluke but Niskanen was the only guy outside of Letang last season who wasn't vastly underwhelming. Hell... even Letang had his bad/awful stretches. Niskanen seemed steady (if mostly unspectacular) all year.

Orpik and/or Martin being shown the door, along with an upgrade in size, strength and grittiness on the blueline would be much more preferable, to me. A tweaking of their defensive philosophy would be very nice, too and would stand a good chance of making any drastic changes largely unnecessary. But that's probably unrealistic.

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Old
12-16-2012, 11:21 AM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
I don't know how quickly I would be willing to part with the team's second best (by a longshot, IMO) defenseman from last season. Obviously it could have been something of a fluke but Niskanen was the only guy outside of Letang last season who wasn't vastly underwhelming.

Orpik and/or Martin being shown the door, along with an upgrade in size, strength and grittiness on the blueline would be much more preferable, to me. A tweaking of their defensive philosophy would be very nice, too and would stand a good chance of making any drastic changes largely unnecessary. But that's probably unrealistic.
Trade Martin, promote Dumoulin and Despres.

Dumoulin-Letang
Orpik-Niskanen
Despres-Engelland
Bortuzzo

Our blue line gets bigger. faster, stronger, and younger. Only downside is they will be less experienced, but having Orpik, Letang, Niskanen and Engelland as mentors should help them out.

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Old
12-16-2012, 11:23 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Trade Martin, promote Dumoulin and Despres.

Dumoulin-Letang
Orpik-Niskanen
Despres-Engelland
Bortuzzo

Our blue line gets bigger. faster, stronger, and younger. Only downside is they will be less experienced, but having Orpik, Letang, Niskanen and Engelland as mentors should help them out.
As a huge Dumoulin fan, I vote we let Dumoulin play a game in the NHL before we trade guys to make room for him on the top pairing

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12-16-2012, 11:29 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Trade Martin, promote Dumoulin and Despres.

Dumoulin-Letang
Orpik-Niskanen
Despres-Engelland
Bortuzzo

Our blue line gets bigger. faster, stronger, and younger. Only downside is they will be less experienced, but having Orpik, Letang, Niskanen and Engelland as mentors should help them out.
Switch Dumoulin and Despres then sign me up. Oh, and maybe sign a 6th D, but we wouldn't particurally need to. I just don't like Engo that much.

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Old
12-16-2012, 11:34 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
As a huge Dumoulin fan, I vote we let Dumoulin play a game in the NHL before we trade guys to make room for him on the top pairing
Yeah it would make sense, but I think the Pens should trade Martin regardless, I mean, Despres looks like he could be a solid NHL player, we can give the roster spots to Despres and Strait if Dumoulin shows he's not ready.

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Originally Posted by penguins2946 View Post
Switch Dumoulin and Despres then sign me up. Oh, and maybe sign a 6th D, but we wouldn't particurally need to. I just don't like Engo that much.
Penguins could do this too, though I think Engelland's job is secure, and if he was going to lose the job, it would probably be to a defenseman in the prospect pool, not a free agent. I don't see Shero signing anymore NHL free agent defensemen with the depth we have.

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Old
12-16-2012, 11:36 AM
  #163
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That's what a Cup contending team's blueline needs.. lots of rookies.

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Old
12-16-2012, 11:45 AM
  #164
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Yeah... just too green.

I realize that the Penguins have lots of promising young defensemen. And a few of them are NHL ready. Or very close to it. But there are limits. As much as I advocate shaking up the blueline... I don't mean that it should be completely reconstructed with guys who have zero NHL experience or maybe a cup of coffee here and there.

It's frustrating with the amount of promising young blueliners this team has. But they have to exercise patience and work them in slowly. If this team wasn't a legitimate contender, maybe things would be a bit different.

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Old
12-16-2012, 11:57 AM
  #165
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If you guys could keep one and had to trade the other... which do you keep:

Strait or Bortuzzo?

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Old
12-16-2012, 12:01 PM
  #166
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You can't just not play them because they are young. Look at the Pens from 2008. They had literally no one that had ever made the cup final, and they lost there. Crosby was like 20. How much experience matters is severely being blown up here. Obviously, it helps, but as seen by the Pens from 2008, even though they didn't win, it is a luxury, not a need.

Saying that they shouldn't be on an everyday roster because they are young is just stupid. They are pro athletes, and we can't be babying them. They know what it takes to win. Despres won the Memorial Cup with the Sea Dogs while in the QMJHL, and Dumoulin won a national championship with BCU last year. They know, and have what it takes, to win. Both were leaders on their championship teams as well.

Case in point, there is no reason to not have Dumoulin and Despres on the full-time roster next year if they are good enough to be there. That's like saying that Bennett shouldn't be playing along Crosby because he is too young. And if the Pens really need leadership, they know Ottawa's number to get Gonchar back.

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12-16-2012, 12:03 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by penguins2946 View Post
You can't just not play them because they are young. Look at the Pens from 2008. They had literally no one that had ever made the cup final, and they lost there. Crosby was like 20. How much experience matters is severely being blown up here. Obviously, it helps, but as seen by the Pens from 2008, even though they didn't win, it is a luxury, not a need.

Saying that they shouldn't be on an everyday roster because they are young is just stupid. They are pro athletes, and we can't be babying them. They know what it takes to win. Despres won the Memorial Cup with the Sea Dogs while in the QMJHL, and Dumoulin won a national championship with BCU last year. They know, and have what it takes, to win. Both were leaders on their championship teams as well.

Case in point, there is no reason to not have Dumoulin and Despres on the full-time roster next year if they are good enough to be there.
I agree with that last point. The problem being that we don't know if they are good enough to be there. The fact of the matter is this: as of today neither Brian Dumoulin nor Simon Despres has proven to be a better NHL player than Paul Martin. If they can prove that they are 2 of the best 6 defensemen we have, then by all means put them in there. Until that happens, don't get rid of guys to make room for them.

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12-16-2012, 12:04 PM
  #168
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I can't believe people still are blaming Martin, Orpik, & Michalek for the defensive breakdown. No one thinks it's odd that they all just went from good defensemen to bad ones over a couple of months?

If the team can't play better team defense all we're doing is moving in newer D-men to get abused in the same way.

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12-16-2012, 12:06 PM
  #169
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Quote:
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That's what a Cup contending team's blueline needs.. lots of rookies.
I don't like this arguement. They all have to start out as rookies, and they have to do so on our team, how are they going to grow as players? You have to start somewhere, I don't think it matters how many years they've been in the league, it matters what kind of hockey player they are and how they can contribute to the team.

I personally think they make our defense better than it currently is. Our defense got owned by the Flyers until Martin stopped playing and they brought up Despres and dressed 7. Despres and Dumoulin are both 6'4" and are going to be 22 before the season starts, Despres would have arguably made the team this year and Dumoulin played competitive college hockey and was going to compete for a job on Carolina's blue line this year if he wasn't traded.

They can both move the puck and play solid positionally, and I'm sure they can hit. Besides experience, what does Martin bring to the team that Despres and Dumoulin don't? And experience isn't that key because we lost to an inexperienced Tampa Bay team (we were injured) and we got owned, completely owned by an inexperienced Flyers team both in the regular season and the playoffs and now that I think of it, they had some rookies on their team, too.

I don't care if they're rookies, if they can make the Penguins better, then they deserve a roster spot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
I can't believe people still are blaming Martin, Orpik, & Michalek for the defensive breakdown. No one thinks it's odd that they all just went from good defensemen to bad ones over a couple of months?

If the team can't play better team defense all we're doing is moving in newer D-men to get abused in the same way.
I'm not really blaming anyone. We traded Michalek (who is better than Martin, IMO), I want us to keep Orpik because he is a solid defenseman and a good leader on this team. Martin makes $5M, in my opinion he doesn't really add anything special to the team. When a new deal is in place, and almost a guaranteed lower salary cap, Martin's going to be the trade bait because he makes too much money.


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12-16-2012, 12:11 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
I can't believe people still are blaming Martin, Orpik, & Michalek for the defensive breakdown. No one thinks it's odd that they all just went from good defensemen to bad ones over a couple of months?

If the team can't play better team defense all we're doing is moving in newer D-men to get abused in the same way.
Martin and Orpik were pretty bad in the regular season, not only during the playoffs. Michalek had a down year, too.

Conversely, Letang, Niskanen, and Engelland all had banner years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
I don't know how quickly I would be willing to part with the team's second best (by a longshot, IMO) defenseman from last season. Obviously it could have been something of a fluke but Niskanen was the only guy outside of Letang last season who wasn't vastly underwhelming. Hell... even Letang had his bad/awful stretches. Niskanen seemed steady (if mostly unspectacular) all year.

Orpik and/or Martin being shown the door, along with an upgrade in size, strength and grittiness on the blueline would be much more preferable, to me. A tweaking of their defensive philosophy would be very nice, too and would stand a good chance of making any drastic changes largely unnecessary. But that's probably unrealistic.
I'm on board with this whole thing.

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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I agree with that last point. The problem being that we don't know if they are good enough to be there. The fact of the matter is this: as of today neither Brian Dumoulin nor Simon Despres has proven to be a better NHL player than Paul Martin. If they can prove that they are 2 of the best 6 defensemen we have, then by all means put them in there. Until that happens, don't get rid of guys to make room for them.
Despres was a better defenseman than Martin in just about every NHL game he played last year.

PM played so far below his pay scale last year that should be on a very short leash from here on out.

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12-16-2012, 12:12 PM
  #171
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remember; injuries always happen. Guys will get a chance to play. If Martin gets hurt, Dumoulin steps in. If we clear Martin out to make room for Dumoulin who do we have backing him up?

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12-16-2012, 12:13 PM
  #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Martin and Orpik were pretty bad in the regular season, not only during the playoffs. Michalek had a down year, too.

Conversely, Letang, Niskanen, and Engelland all had banner years.



I'm on board with this whole thing.



Despres was a better defenseman than Martin in just about every NHL game he played last year.

PM played so far below his pay scale last year that should be on a very short leash from here on out.
Despres also played very very sheltered minutes the majority of the time. note: I do expect Despres to be on the starting roster next time the Penguins are playing. I just don't think two rookies while throwing out Martin is the way to do it unless we can get a really good trade return for Martin.

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12-16-2012, 12:18 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
remember; injuries always happen. Guys will get a chance to play. If Martin gets hurt, Dumoulin steps in. If we clear Martin out to make room for Dumoulin who do we have backing him up?
Do you mean players with NHL experience or just defenders? Cause the Pens have a ton of defenders.

Brian Strait
Robert Bortuzzo
Ben Lovejoy
Simon Despres
Brian Dumoulin
Joe Morrow
Alex Grant
Dylan Reese
Philip Samuelsson
Carl Sneep
Reid McNeill

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12-16-2012, 12:19 PM
  #174
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Another example on why veterans aren't particularly as good as people think: The Detroit Red Wings. They had so many players from their 2008 team still on their roster over the last few years, and they consistently lost in the 1st or 2nd round. Why? They were too old, simple as that. They didn't have any young legs to help out or carry the torch. Now, Lidstrom is done and Stuart is gone, and they will slowly fade into a mediocre team. All their best players are over 30, and they have no one to replace them.

Us delaying when Dumoulin and Despres come up is only going to cause bad things. Even if we put them in next year or in 3 years, the so-called "rookie issue" will still be there. The difference is in 3 years, they are going to need to play a much bigger role than what they would be playing next year. Ease them in now instead of forcing them in when Martin/Orpik/Niskanen leave.

And on the Martin issue, I would be fine with trading him. If we trade him, it would let Dumoulin and Despres get normal time, and it would also let Morrow get more time in the AHL. And also, we have Reese, Bort and Strait that can come up in case of injury.


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12-16-2012, 12:40 PM
  #175
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Another example on why veterans aren't particularly as good as people think: The Detroit Red Wings. They had so many players from their 2008 team still on their roster over the last few years, and they consistently lost in the 1st or 2nd round. Why? They were too old, simple as that. They didn't have any young legs to help out or carry the torch. Now, Lidstrom is done and Stuart is gone, and they will slowly fade into a mediocre team. All their best players are over 30, and they have no one to replace them.

Us delaying when Dumoulin and Despres come up is only going to cause bad things. Even if we put them in next year or in 3 years, the so-called "rookie issue" will still be there. The difference is in 3 years, they are going to need to play a much bigger role than what they would be playing next year. Ease them in now instead of forcing them in when Martin/Orpik/Niskanen leave.

And on the Martin issue, I would be fine with trading him. If we trade him, it would let Dumoulin and Despres get normal time, and it would also let Morrow get more time in the AHL. And also, we have Reese, Bort and Strait that can come up in case of injury.
I think the issue some of us have is having both Despres and Dumoulin going through the "rookie issues" at the same time. We don't need to rush them. Let's see if we can ease them in one at a time unless they really blow the staff away and force their hand. What if their rookie issues turn into full blown NHL failure? That is always a possibility. None of these kids are guaranteed to succeed in the NHL.

Quote:
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Do you mean players with NHL experience or just defenders? Cause the Pens have a ton of defenders.

Brian Strait
Robert Bortuzzo
Ben Lovejoy
Simon Despres
Brian Dumoulin
Joe Morrow
Alex Grant
Dylan Reese
Philip Samuelsson
Carl Sneep
Reid McNeill
fair enough.

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