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Old
12-22-2012, 09:23 PM
  #876
DJ Spinoza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge View Post
I'll have to do some more research once the deal gets finalized and we know the exact details...but the two primary names coming back are definitely underwhelming, even given Hanrahan's limited trade value.

Sands appears to be yet another AAAA power bat without the tools to be an everyday Major Leaguer and the best thing about Stolmy Pimentel appears to be that his name is Stolmy.

That and where the hell does Sands even fit in? We've already got five Major League outfielders without bringing Jones into the discussion (one has to think he's a 1B permanently from here on, regardless of this deal).
I suppose the speculation is that there is another shoe to drop still... maybe a Jones deal, but I can't imagine what kind of return he could get that makes any sense given our needs. Plus, swapping out Jones for another "maybe" player is a definite step backwards for the MLB team. It could just be a situation where the team takes what they can get in terms of depth. If both Gordon and Iglesias were off the table, four players with some control will help more than one year of Hanrahan on a downswing.

There is some chatter that one of the other players is Mark Melancon, not that this fact really means much. He was pretty awful last year, but the NL central effect could see a return to decent form. The bloggers generally seem to like the Melancon acquisition, and I'd agree that he adds some depth and decent quality. Given the success Huntington's bullpens continue to have, it should prove to be a low profile improvement/replacement.

One thing that I don't think should be ignored is that the bullpen now has some opportunities in the back end for Bryan Morris, who definitely should have been pitching in Pittsburgh down the stretch last year. I don't think this solely makes getting rid of Hanrahan a smart idea, but it's also very possible that he flames out, and adding another young arm helps sure things up a bit in terms of depth. Palms looks very similar to Snyder to me, but I don't know very much about him. Letting several AAAA types battle it out for a spot may not be the worst way to go--if we manufacture an outfield version of Garrett Jones (there's a joke in that statement, I realize), then we'll be better off than we would be via a free agent transaction or the current internal prospect field.

The thing about this trade is that it's a depth acquisition. There seem to be a few options in terms of evaluating it: 1) follow the petulant yinzer Dejan Kovacevic and just whine and blame ownership, cry for more Hammer; 2) criticize a depth move made up of mostly mediocre players when the team could have sold high on Hanrahan a few years ago; 3) not care too much, it's only one year of Hanrahan and closers are not valuable, especially the way Hurdle uses them.

One final note: I think a lot hinges on the fourth player from the Red Sox and the second player from the Pirates. This is a bit of a captain obvious statement, but if the Pirates did end up sending someone like Jones and the 4th Red Sox prospect is another tweener, this won't look very good at all. I'm warming up to the idea of Melancon rebounding in the NL, given his FIP and xFiP stats as well as an unsustainably high FB-HR rate, and Sands/Pimentel is fine for Hanrahan, but losing a player like Jones in this deal would be tough to swallow. Sanchez would be a bit different, given that he still has some upside but is much less of a sure-thing than Jones.


Last edited by DJ Spinoza: 12-22-2012 at 10:49 PM.
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Old
12-22-2012, 10:47 PM
  #877
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Dejan Kovacevic says another player coming to the Pirates is, in fact, Mark Melancon

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12-23-2012, 01:01 AM
  #878
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
How many times have the Pirates traded All-Star players for prospects? We aren't getting a Major league player at all in this deal are we? I bet the 2nd player from the Pirates is Garrett Jones.
*shrugs* The simple answer is that Huntington sucks as a GM. Most of us have known that for a long time. Some of us said it when he was hired, after no search and right after just being demoted by the indians for sucking.

People who suck at their jobs make moves that suck. It really is that simple.

So I am not angry by the move, merely unsurprised.

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12-23-2012, 01:05 AM
  #879
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Don't worry guys. It's not this off-season that's going poorly. More like it's the trade deadline two years ago that went wrong when we didn't trade Hanrahan. This was bound to happen the longer we held onto him.

Neil is a mediocre GM trying to make something out of FIP. I think the Red Sox tried to do something similar themselves and found out that sometimes a guy with a low FIP and a high ERA has actually earned his high ERA. FIP is cool and not entirely un-useful but I do not think that it has as much predictive value as Neil seems to believe and that is what will bite him in the butt if he keeps doing stuff like this.

The rest of what's happening... Not impressed.
The best I can say is that we haven't really set ourselves back all that much if you consider that assets do get older. You have to lose some initiative here and there - you can't run out a team of rookies every year. Andrew McCutchen - for example - will probably never again have a higher trade value than it is right now. That doesn't mean we need to jump to trade him.

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12-23-2012, 01:26 AM
  #880
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The problem here is that with a certain segment of the fan base there's literally nothing that would have pleased them with the handling of Hanrahan.

If we trade him at the deadline in 2011 then it's just another mark of the ownership being cheap and the team not caring about winning! We can't just marching out a team of rookies every year!
If we trade him at the deadline in 2012 then we're waving the white flag already?! This is the year we're breaking .500!
If we trade him now...ah, come on! You should have traded him when his value was at it's peak! We sucked the rest of the season both times...

It's funny to talk about the team marching out too many youngsters at all times when we're talking about a guy who we held on to for a bit too long when trying to win.

And get used to Sabremetrics. Love them or not, they're something that every single team in the league uses in some fashion. FIP isn't perfect, but it is as good of a tool as we have in predicting trends in a pitcher season-to-season.


If this doesn't get announced tomorrow then I doubt it gets announced until after Christmas, so we may have a few days of speculation. I'll wait until all the cards have fallen to blow up.

But I will say this...if we dump Jones in favor of Sands I'll almost certainly be furious. Jones should have a fair amount of trade value, but I hate the idea of going into another season with a question mark at first base.

edit: I want to make this clear. Jones is far from a great player, and next year we should be able to use him in the way he's meant to be used for the first time really (as a platoon player at first base, which allows him to be the first option off the bench on off-days), which should result in some rather appealing numbers, since he won't be facing lefties nearly as much or killing us with his awful outfield 'defense'. He's also fairly cheap and controllable long enough to basically make a big free agency payday impossible for the guy (sucks for him, but after spending a decade in the minors I doubt he minds making $5 million a year right now)...basically his value is largely connected to his cost. Jones is a reliable positive in the bang for the buck category. Replacing his production via free agency would require double what he's going to make the next couple years. Jones is no longer going to be dirt cheap (I'm assuming he'll get a major raise to the territory of $4.5 million for next season), but he's still likely to put up good numbers with him being able to be used properly and he still won't sniff free agency until 2016. Jones's value may not get any higher than it is right now, because he is an affordable 31 year-old who comes with an actual history of being able to hit pitching (something he really didn't have before this past season), a decent cost, controllable years, and the illusion of position flexibility (a myth, mind you...the only reason he's played outfield is because of the Pirates dearth of outfielders and PNC Park's short right field bench...but he can be sold as a 1B/RF and not just a 1B). But we're also in a situation where Jones provides an invaluable service to this team, and selling him off could mean a huge step back, especially if Gaby doesn't rebound and Sands turns out to just be another AAAA bum like Bowker, Pearce, or Clement.

Now if we get a good return for him and Gaby returns to form and/or Sands works out then we'd all be singing a different tune, but it's a tricky road to navigate. It's all going to depend on the return, and it's hard to imagine Garrett Jones returning a package that would make it worthwhile. He's not good (or young) enough to warrant a top prospect and it's hard to see him being dealt in a one-for-one Major Leaguer swap when he plays one of our two positions of need right now...which puts his likely return in the same pond that we've been dipping into way too much - the maligned prospect (or two) who's about to lose prospect status. We've had some good results there, but a ton of duds...and the good results have mostly come as throw-ins (Karstens & J-Mac, namely). It's just hard for me to imagine a situation where we'd get a return that I'd deem reasonable for Jones...it's certainly possible, but I just see him as a guy who's value is higher to us than it is on the trade market.

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Last edited by Big McLargehuge: 12-23-2012 at 01:59 AM.
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Old
12-23-2012, 08:57 AM
  #881
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I am of the belief that guys like Hanrahan shouldve been sold when they were at their highest values. I didnt care about a potential playoff run and my posts in my history back up what I am saying now.

Right now, I don't see the benefit of this at all. We get a worse team by dealing Hanrahan away who was a fantastic reliever for this team and only started to look human once everyone else on the team did as well and even then he was still solid. This return is awful, and there isnt much doubt that at the deadline an effective Hanrahan could return sigificantly more than this pile of crap, and if he doesnt oh well we don't get the pile of crap. Usually it would make me sick to my stomach having a player walk away and the team receive nothing but when we're talking this kind of return and losing that effective of a player it's downright stupid to trade him for this crap. The second Iglesias wasnt in the deal Huntington shouldve said no deal and we'll take him to the deadline.

What bothers me most about this is that it's not a baseball move it's a money move. This team doesnt should be incredibly sensitive to their perception as a team that cares more about money than winning. I am not asking for a 100+mill payroll but something more than dead last in the league would be closer to acceptable. I hate measuring a team by their payroll but when they make stupid moves like this to nickle and dime the fans it makes me angry and it makes me look to it.

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12-23-2012, 09:02 AM
  #882
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I am just getting really frustrated with the sports world lately. With this crap from the Pirates, the NHL garbage, and my Uconn Huskies (football) getting screwed in every possible way which is possible and keeping the worlds worst offensive coordinator and coach combination employed in a dead conference. It'd be nice for one shred of good news and I thought I was getting it with the pirates getting Iglesias.

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12-23-2012, 11:32 AM
  #883
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Any predictions?

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Old
12-23-2012, 11:37 AM
  #884
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No Mike Adams.

Adams, Burress, Taylor, King, Leftwich, Robinson, Woods inactive for the Steelers today.

Josh Victorian must be starting at CB again.

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Old
12-23-2012, 11:57 AM
  #885
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24-20 Steelers

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12-23-2012, 11:58 AM
  #886
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I would like a game or two sans Phil Simms.

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12-23-2012, 11:58 AM
  #887
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If we do not make the playoffs, is Tomlin's job safe? Knowing how the Steelers do business, I definitely can't see his job in trouble.

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12-23-2012, 12:01 PM
  #888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
No Mike Adams.

Adams, Burress, Taylor, King, Leftwich, Robinson, Woods inactive for the Steelers today.

Josh Victorian must be starting at CB again.
Allen will start.

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12-23-2012, 12:01 PM
  #889
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Didn't he just get an extension? Tomlin is fine for a while.

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12-23-2012, 12:03 PM
  #890
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Didn't he just get an extension? Tomlin is fine for a while.
Yep, he is here for a long time. Cowher had 3 straight non-playoffs years and he didn't get fired.

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12-23-2012, 12:06 PM
  #891
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This is where the play call is strange... 3rd and 7 after a STUPID run play on 2nd down. That's where Ben might be angry.

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12-23-2012, 12:06 PM
  #892
Dick Sledge
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Haley.

Why u no shotgun?

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12-23-2012, 12:06 PM
  #893
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Poor pass blocking by DeCastro

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12-23-2012, 12:07 PM
  #894
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Tomlin is very safe, IMO. (not an endorsement for him, just how the Rooney's role)

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12-23-2012, 12:08 PM
  #895
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One drop back, one sack. Wake the **** up boys, or it'll be a long day

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12-23-2012, 12:09 PM
  #896
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I hate our new CB w/o Ike. They just target him non stop.

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12-23-2012, 12:09 PM
  #897
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Ah ****....quick outs, our kryptonite.

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12-23-2012, 12:10 PM
  #898
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Timmons has been a beast.

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12-23-2012, 12:10 PM
  #899
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Timmons gets a sack!

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12-23-2012, 12:11 PM
  #900
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Multiple sack drive.

Oh the memories.

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