I see your point but I wouldn't consider Andy Mac a weak 1C by any stretch. He's had trouble staying healthy but his PPG is easily first line caliber.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinnyC
You're right. Although let's also consider that the Ducks 2C was Getzlaf (who ended up playing more than Andy, and so did Pahlsson during the cup run) and the Bruins' was Bergeron; both teams had crazy forward depth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul4587
Andy McDonald at that time was far from a weak 1st line centre. The year the Ducks won the cup he was 12th among all centres in points, far from the best but above average among the 1Cs that year. He also had 10 goals in 21 playoff games that year which led the team.
As for the question, Grabovski is absolutely good enough to be a #2 on a cup winner. He shouldn't be counted on to be a 1C though.
I see a lot of people are questioning me calling McDonald a "weak #1 centre." Obviously his production was high, but he was also very undersized, not at all physical, and a bit of a 1 dimensional player. The very next season after the cup win, he was traded fairly early in the season (in December) for virtually nothing just to free up cap space to bring Niedermayer back. This was the season where Niedermayer was considering retirement, then decided to sign/come back mid-season. The Ducks traded McDonald for an ageing/washed up Doug Weight just to free up a bit of cap space. Note that McDonald was super healthy at the time (didn't miss a single game that year or the two years prior, and even the season before that he played 79 games), signed to a reasonable contract ($3.3 mil cap hit for that season and the next season), and wasn't that old (he was 30), but he was still the first piece the Ducks looked to dump to free up some cap space. That doesn't exactly scream "good #1 centre."
I see a lot of people are questioning me calling McDonald a "weak #1 centre." Obviously his production was high, but he was also undersized and a bit of a 1 dimensional player. The very next season after the cup win, he was traded fairly early in the season (in December) for virtually nothing just to free up cap space to bring Niedermayer back. This was the season where Niedermayer was considering retirement, then decided to sign/come back mid-season. The Ducks traded McDonald for an ageing/washed up Doug Weight just to free up a bit of cap space. Note that McDonald was super healthy at the time (didn't miss a single game that year or the two years prior, and even the season before that he played 79 games), signed to a reasonable contract ($3.3 mil cap hit for that season and the next season), and wasn't that old (he was 30), but he was still the first piece the Ducks looked to dump to free up some cap space. That doesn't exactly scream "good #1 centre."
Andy had a very weak first half of the season IIRC so when the cap crunch came around w.r.t. Niedermayer it isn't entirely surprising he was shipped. But looking at the stats sheet, he was PPG in 2005-06 and 2006-07, but by the time he was traded in December '07 he only had 4 goals. Then he went on to be PPG or close with the Blues and wears an A despite his constant injury troubles. By then Getzlaf was the team's #1C too.
When did I say Grabo couldn't play on a contender, when over half the league could? You can read can't you? I said by the list of Centers I posted of past cup finalists he wouldn't have cracked the top Center's line up.
So either you agree or disagree with this. I personally would never take Grabovoski over Richards, Kopitar, Bergeron, or Malkin. ect...
Maybe you would. But you are Leafs fan.
There's a difference between contender and playoff team.
You've stated many times that Grabo couldn't play on a contender and constantly blame him as the sole reason why the Leafs haven't made the playoffs.
As for your list, the same theory applies to them. Would they be able to knock off some of the others on that list? Would you take Richards over Malkin, Kessler over Datsyuk, Carter over Zetterberg, Kopitar over Crosby etc?
Have you noticed a trend? Different teams with different players make it to the finals and win/lose every year(the exception being Detroit and Pittsburgh).
Andy had a very weak first half of the season IIRC so when the cap crunch came around w.r.t. Niedermayer it isn't entirely surprising he was shipped. But looking at the stats sheet, he was PPG in 2005-06 and 2006-07, but by the time he was traded in December '07 he only had 4 goals. Then he went on to be PPG or close with the Blues and wears an A despite his constant injury troubles. By then Getzlaf was the team's #1C too.
The point is that after less than half a season of "meh" production, they were immediately willing to ship him out for very little value just to free up cap space. He was (and continues to be) a good offensive player, but he has never been a good #1 centre, because he's very small, not physical, and he's more or less a 1 dimensional player (doesn't bring much to the table but offence). That's why he was seen as an expendable player without a lot of value despite his high production, good health, good contract and decent age.
Sure. Boston did it with Krejci and he led the playoffs in scoring. I wouldn't say there's a huge gap between Krejci and Grabo.
Could you upgrade on him? Again, sure. But he'd be fine.
Krejci has cleared 60 points the past two years and did 70 four seasons ago, and is ALSO defensively very strong.
Grabo's not Krejci.
The thing about Grabo is while he might carry enough offense to pull the role if he had a top-end defensive game (debatable), his defensive game is just above average. To be a second line center on a contender you need to be a 60+ center with a good defensive game. Grabo is neither. The offense might be arguable as you could suggest his production could improve on a better team; although Stajan and Kovalchuk are recent examples of the opposite - Stajan being the most relevant as he had Grabo's role before Grabo did. In fact, I would argue that if Grabo is good enough to be a 2C on a contender, than so is Stajan. Because Stajan has proven the offensive ability Grabo has in the same role, and he has a much better defensive game.
He's one of those players that can be extremely good if he has the right linemates but very unproductive otherwise. Sorta like Briere, Carter, pre-crisis Gomez or Jokinen.
There's a difference between contender and playoff team.
You've stated many times that Grabo couldn't play on a contender and constantly blame him as the sole reason why the Leafs haven't made the playoffs.
As for your list, the same theory applies to them. Would they be able to knock off some of the others on that list? Would you take Richards over Malkin, Kessler over Datsyuk, Carter over Zetterberg, Kopitar over Crosby etc?
Have you noticed a trend? Different teams with different players make it to the finals and win/lose every year(the exception being Detroit and Pittsburgh).
But would you take Grabovski over any of the players you just mentioned? Here's the last 5 years of finalists. Who would you take Grabovski over. He's a number 3 C on a contendor.
But would you take Grabovski over any of the players you just mentioned? Here's the last 5 years of finalists. Who would you take Grabovski over. He's a number 3 C on a contendor.
I disagree with your theory. Having a real legit number 1 center makes your #2 much better
If the leafs had a legit 1st line center, the opposing teams would focus more on him and that would leave more space for Grabo. I dont think he can be a legit #1 but he could be a solid #2.
The Bruins won with Krejci/Bergeron, two 60-70 point two way centers. Up to this point Grabo is a 50-60 point two way center, who IMO isnt THAT far off from Krejci, but he isn't Krejci.
If team A had Krejci/Grabo as their centers I think that team could compete, but for instance Bozak/Grabo could not compete, which has been displayed the last couple years.
In sum, I think if there are two 50-70 point centers with a team with strong defense/goaltending then you could absolutely compete. So yes, i think he COULD be. If we werent jam packed with two way centers already, I would love Grabo on my team.
I can tell ALOT of leaf fans hit this poll up, because if hes on a stanley cup contending team hes not top six in my view.
Read the posts and look where the posters are from and maybe you will see you are simply wrong and he is a decent player. Spare us you conspiracy theories without looking at the evidence.
Krejci has cleared 60 points the past two years and did 70 four seasons ago, and is ALSO defensively very strong.
Grabo's not Krejci.
The thing about Grabo is while he might carry enough offense to pull the role if he had a top-end defensive game (debatable), his defensive game is just above average. To be a second line center on a contender you need to be a 60+ center with a good defensive game. Grabo is neither. The offense might be arguable as you could suggest his production could improve on a better team; although Stajan and Kovalchuk are recent examples of the opposite - Stajan being the most relevant as he had Grabo's role before Grabo did. In fact, I would argue that if Grabo is good enough to be a 2C on a contender, than so is Stajan. Because Stajan has proven the offensive ability Grabo has in the same role, and he has a much better defensive game.
Grabovski is better defensively than Krejci and Stajan.
Going by the rosters of playoff teams last season, Grabovski would be the #2 center on the Blues (division winner, 2nd most points in NHL), Blackhawks, Capitals, Panthers, Senators, the #1 center on the Coyotes (division winner, conference finals) and roughly on par with the #2 centers of the Rangers (conference winner, 2nd most points in NHL, conference finals), Devils (Stanley Cup Final), and Predators (104 points, 5th in NHL). A team could absolutely be a contender with Grabovski as their #2 center.
But would you take Grabovski over any of the players you just mentioned? Here's the last 5 years of finalists. Who would you take Grabovski over. He's a number 3 C on a contendor.
Only two teams make the Finals each year. Are you suggesting that there are only two "contenders" in the NHL each year?
I'd guess anywhere between 7 and 9 teams have a realistic chance at the Cup each year. Grabovski can certainly be the #2 center on at least a handful of those.
Interesting, seems like other fans actually like Grabovski.
Anyway it's great to see this poll backfire, usually attempts to belittle Leaf fans have the opposite effect
And oh look, Interactif is here
According to this poll, almost 40% don't think Grabo could play on a contender, which basically means can Grabo play on a playoff team since making the playoffs these days means you are a contender if Philly is any indication 2 years ago, 1 game from winning it all.
I am surprised the answer was not 99%.
Given the context of the question it is actually a surprise he is only at 61%?
A better question would have been is Grabovski a Stanley Cup winning top 1or 2 center? That is a better question, winning a cup isn't it?
You've stated many times that Grabo couldn't play on a contender and constantly blame him as the sole reason why the Leafs haven't made the playoffs.
Let me clarify what I said, Grabo is not the caliber of these Centers that went to the Cup finals recently. Now I don't know about you, but who is Grabo going to out play head to head for a cup on this list or who he is better, but given his stats are 58 points max on a team that never played defence(29th last year in GA), I don't think it is unreasonable to say he is not a top 1C or 2 C on these past cup finalists.
Kopitar 76pts
Mike Richards 44pts missed 8 games 15pts playoffs
Zajac 14pts playoffs hurt
Henrique(Rookie) 51pts missed 8 games 13pts playoffsSedin 94pts
Kesler 73pts
Krejci 62pts missed 7 games 23pts playoffs
Bergeron 57pts 20pts playoffs
Carter 61pts missed 8 games
Mike Richards 62pts 23pts playoffs
Sharp 66pts 22pts Playoffs
Toews 68pts 29pts Playoffs+Cup
Malkin 113pts 36pts playoffs
Crosby 103pts
Crosby 72pts 27pts playoffs
Malkin 106
Zetterberg 92
Datsyuk 97pts
Getzlaf 58pts 17pts (team high in playoffs) playoffs+Cup
Mcdonald 78pts
Fisher 48 pts missed 14 games
Spezza 87 pts missed 15 games
Horcoff 74pts 19pts playoffs
Stoll 68pts
Brind'Amour 70pts
Staal 100 pts
If Grabovski is your number 2 and you can't win chances are the problem is somewhere else. Very underrated IMO. I could see this question in regards to him being a #1 center but as a 2 guy he's ideal.
Krejci has cleared 60 points the past two years and did 70 four seasons ago, and is ALSO defensively very strong.
Grabo's not Krejci.
The thing about Grabo is while he might carry enough offense to pull the role if he had a top-end defensive game (debatable), his defensive game is just above average. To be a second line center on a contender you need to be a 60+ center with a good defensive game. Grabo is neither. The offense might be arguable as you could suggest his production could improve on a better team; although Stajan and Kovalchuk are recent examples of the opposite - Stajan being the most relevant as he had Grabo's role before Grabo did. In fact, I would argue that if Grabo is good enough to be a 2C on a contender, than so is Stajan. Because Stajan has proven the offensive ability Grabo has in the same role, and he has a much better defensive game.
Neither of the second-line centers in the past 2 years reached 60 points in the season their team won the cup. There's no set formula for a second-line center.
Not many teams have a second-line center capable of putting up 60 points while playing strong defense.
