The Bruins won with Krejci/Bergeron, two 60-70 point two way centers. Up to this point Grabo is a 50-60 point two way center, who IMO isnt THAT far off from Krejci, but he isn't Krejci.
If team A had Krejci/Grabo as their centers I think that team could compete, but for instance Bozak/Grabo could not compete, which has been displayed the last couple years.
In sum, I think if there are two 50-70 point centers with a team with strong defense/goaltending then you could absolutely compete. So yes, i think he COULD be. If we werent jam packed with two way centers already, I would love Grabo on my team.
Krejci is a proven commodity in the playoffs, Grabovski has yet to even play in a playoff game.
It's also fair to note his 51 points came last year on a team that didn't pay attention to defence where the Leafs finished 29th in GA. I am not sure how his stats would translate to a defence first team whereas under Ron Wilson it was all offence first, defence 2nd. That's the thing about Grabovski's 48-58 points he has achieved in Toronto, you have to view them with context.
We do know Richards and Krejci or Bergeron bring a lot more in the intangibles than Grabovski does. These guys have all proven they can play on winners, and all played huge in the 10-11 playoffs.
Krejci is a proven commodity in the playoffs, Grabovski has yet to even play in a playoff game.
It's also fair to note his 51 points came last year on a team that didn't pay attention to defence where the Leafs finished 29th in GA. I am not sure how his stats would translate to a defence first team whereas under Ron Wilson it was all offence first, defence 2nd. That's the thing about Grabovski's 48-58 points he has achieved in Toronto, you have to view them with context.
Flat out wrong, like usual.
For the past 2 years, Grabovski has either been playing against top defensive players, and/or used as the shutdown line himself.
Having an offense-driven system doesn't mean all players had their stats boosted offensively.
Grabovski isn't helped by the offensive system. As the team gets better, there will be more bonus points, he will get better line-mates, and he won't be relied upon to be the shutdown line.
For the past 2 years, Grabovski has either been playing against top defensive players, and/or used as the shutdown line himself.
Having an offense-driven system doesn't mean all players had their stats boosted offensively.
Grabovski isn't helped by the offensive system. As the team gets better, there will be more bonus points, he will get better line-mates, and he won't be relied upon to be the shutdown line.
Simply untrue, Kessel and Lupul's line attracted the top defence pairing, what NHL coach puts his best defensive pairing against Grabovski? Grabovski is also 29 next month, I doubt he will get better, how many 29 year olds hit their primes at that age?
Ron Wilson's system was a perfect fit for his up tempo, little emphasis on defence, perfect for padding points. It's hard to ignore that the Leafs finished 29th in GA last year with the style they play.
Only two teams make the Finals each year. Are you suggesting that there are only two "contenders" in the NHL each year?
I'd guess anywhere between 7 and 9 teams have a realistic chance at the Cup each year. Grabovski can certainly be the #2 center on at least a handful of those.
I guess our definition of contendor is different, as far as I'm concerned the 2 teams that make the finals are contendors the others got beat and are lesser so obviously they have more holes to fill. I'm guessing by your response though that you wouldn't take Grabo over any of those players though so my point still stands
I disagree with your theory. Having a real legit number 1 center makes your #2 much better
If the leafs had a legit 1st line center, the opposing teams would focus more on him and that would leave more space for Grabo. I dont think he can be a legit #1 but he could be a solid #2.
The only thing we can go by is past performance, you can't handicap it and say well he would do better if he wasn't relied on as the #1. The Leafs play a pretty wide open system where the forwards aren't relied upon very much defensively which should help his numbers. I'm not debating his defensive prowess either I actually really like him and would be happy to have him on my team if we didn't already have 6 centers, but the point is you are making a baseless claim to support your arguement that his numbers would actually improve in a lesser role with lesser talent around him. That logic seems backwards to me I see him as a solid #2 on a playoff team. A definite number 3 on a "contendor" which is the specification in this thread
I guess our definition of contendor is different, as far as I'm concerned the 2 teams that make the finals are contendors the others got beat and are lesser so obviously they have more holes to fill. I'm guessing by your response though that you wouldn't take Grabo over any of those players though so my point still stands
Mike Richards had an off year offensively with 44 points in 74 games, but I would take all of his intangibles plus the 15 points he added in the playoffs over Grabvoski's 51 points last year. There is more to the game then compiling points such as leadership, winning faceoffs, grit, a playoff warrior, a winning attitude. All things that fans admire in Richards.
Mike Richards had an off year offensively with 44 points in 74 games, but I would take all of his intangibles plus the 15 points he added in the playoffs over Grabvoski's 51 points last year. There is more to the game then compiling points such as leadership, winning faceoffs, grit, a playoff warrior, a winning attitude. All things that fans admire in Richards.
Mike Richards had an off year offensively with 44 points in 74 games, but I would take all of his intangibles plus the 15 points he added in the playoffs over Grabvoski's 51 points last year. There is more to the game then compiling points such as leadership, winning faceoffs, grit, a playoff warrior, a winning attitude. All things that fans admire in Richards.
I like this post- Richards is my ideal 2C behind Toews- he can bring offense, but even if he doesn't he still brings so much in every other area of the game.
Also just a clarify thought I had- is Grabovski really considered a two way forward, as has been mentioned in this thread? Im not disputing it necesarily, because admittedly, I don't see him play a ton, but from what I HAVE seen he's never struck me as a center that pays any particular attention to the defensive side of the game. It's just not something I've ever once heard him described as.
I like this post- Richards is my ideal 2C behind Toews- he can bring offense, but even if he doesn't he still brings so much in every other area of the game.
Also just a clarify thought I had- is Grabovski really considered a two way forward, as has been mentioned in this thread? Im not disputing it necesarily, because admittedly, I don't see him play a ton, but from what I HAVE seen he's never struck me as a center that pays any particular attention to the defensive side of the game. It's just not something I've ever once heard him described as.
Leafs fans generally think he is a good defensive fwd, but he plays with Nik Kulemin, one of the most underrated defensive fwds in the league. Nik had an off year last season scoring 7 goals after a 30 goal season, but still ended up +7. He is often the player left defending when grabovski is up ice trying to score.
When he was healthy last year Grabovski was a +7, when he went out with an injury Grabovski was -7 without him. Now Grabovski isn't bad defensively, but a lot of what Leafs fans say about his defensive game is mostly due to Kulemin's work. Look at Kulemin's + in the KHL this year, it was as high as +14 tops on his club a week ago. So while grabovski isn't bad defensively, he isn't as good as some may have you believe.
Also just a clarify thought I had- is Grabovski really considered a two way forward, as has been mentioned in this thread? Im not disputing it necesarily, because admittedly, I don't see him play a ton, but from what I HAVE seen he's never struck me as a center that pays any particular attention to the defensive side of the game. It's just not something I've ever once heard him described as.
Grabovski isn't flashy defensively, the way Datsyuk is... Nor will he amaze you with bullheadedness and physical effort/domination the way Kesler is... but he's one of the best 2-way centers in the league.
The fact of the matter is that despite not having a reputation as a two way center Mikhail Grabovski is one of the best two way centers in the league. If we look at "Adjusted Corsi" which seeks to correct Corsi for where on the ice a player starts, Grabovski came in third in the entire league last year, between Ryan Kesler and Patrice Bergeron.
We say "plus-possession" because a former Edmonton Oilers blogger named Vic Ferrari found that teams that get a lot of shot attempts also spend a lot of time in the opponent's end. Teams that spent a lot of time in the opponent's end were also found more likely to make the playoffs. If Grabovski has a 53.5% Corsi ratio, there's a strong chance that the Leafs were on offence for 53.5% of the time Grabovski was on the ice, and if every Leaf could "drive play" as well as Grabovski, there's a strong chance the Leafs would make the playoffs.
Joey Crabb may be missed, he did a passable job, but Mikhail Grabovski is the important bit here. He was the best regular Leafs forward, took on the top competition and still finished close to par in Corsi. No Maple Leaf was a plus-possession player without Grabovski on the ice last season, with the exception of Ryan Hamilton (1 shot for, 0 against, in 3 minutes of play).
I've mentioned in the past that no Leaf skater was a plus-possession player without Mikhail Grabovski also on the ice. This is a fact that will continue to be true until we start the next season, when maybe some of the information will change, but it won't prevent Grabovski from being a cost-controlled two-way force drastically underappreciated by Leafs fans.
Simply untrue, Kessel and Lupul's line attracted the top defence pairing, what NHL coach puts his best defensive pairing against Grabovski? Grabovski is also 29 next month, I doubt he will get better, how many 29 year olds hit their primes at that age?
Ron Wilson's system was a perfect fit for his up tempo, little emphasis on defence, perfect for padding points. It's hard to ignore that the Leafs finished 29th in GA last year with the style they play.
In 2010/2011 when the Grabovski line was one of the best in the NHL, Grabovski was facing top defensive players on a regular basis for long stretches.
Whenever that wasn't happening over the past 2 years (and even sometimes when it was), Grabovski's line was used as the shutdown line.
Grabovski did not benefit from the system. In fact, he was likely hurt by it.
The Leafs finished 29th in GA because of the PK and our inexperienced (and injured) goaltending, not because of Grabovski.
In 2010/2011 when the Grabovski line was one of the best in the NHL, Grabovski was facing top defensive players on a regular basis for long stretches.
Whenever that wasn't happening over the past 2 years (and even sometimes when it was), Grabovski's line was used as the shutdown line.
Grabovski did not benefit from the system. In fact, he was likely hurt by it.
The Leafs finished 29th in GA because of the PK and our inexperienced (and injured) goaltending, not because of Grabovski.
Leafs didn't have a shut down line in 10-11, Ron Wilson didn't employ a checking line. What he would do is assign a defensive pairing against the other team's top scoring line. Leafs were a terrible defensive team under Wilson. Wilson would roll 3 lines and whoever scored the most in his run and gun style of padding stats, he would be pleased if the Leafs outscored the opposition. He simply never tried to beat a team 2-1 or 1-0
He'd have been the Coyotes' best center, the Rangers' 2nd best center, and the Devils' 2nd best center if Elias is at wing.
A) Elias wasn't at wing, though. How do we know they're anywhere near as good if he's back playing the wing?
B) The Devils' 2nd best? Over which two of Zajac/Elias/Henrique? And on the Rangers, he'd beat out Stepan, who produced comparably last year but has much more of a defensive game? Unlikely.
C) Maybe he'd be Phoenix's #2, but Grabo's not better than Hanzal. No sir.
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Originally Posted by ESH
Neither of the second-line centers in the past 2 years reached 60 points in the season their team won the cup. There's no set formula for a second-line center.
I'll rephrase. I should have said "60-point capable". And you're really splitting hairs over Bergeron; he had 57 points in 80 games.
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Not many teams have a second-line center capable of putting up 60 points while playing strong defense.
That's why they're called "championship contenders".
Last edited by eva unit zero: 12-10-2012 at 11:48 PM.
Leafs didn't have a shut down line in 10-11, Ron Wilson didn't employ a checking line. What he would do is assign a defensive pairing against the other team's top scoring line. Leafs were a terrible defensive team under Wilson. Wilson would roll 3 lines and whoever scored the most in his run and gun style of padding stats, he would be pleased if the Leafs outscored the opposition. He simply never tried to beat a team 2-1 or 1-0
Yes, they did have a shutdown line.
Go back and watch games, because you obviously have zero understanding of what happened.
Go back and watch games, because you obviously have zero understanding of what happened.
I do understand this, If the Leafs did have a shut down line, and Grabovski centered it, it surely didn't work. The Leafs have finished 30th, 29th, 24th, 29th in GA the last 4 years.
Grabovski is better defensively than Krejci and Stajan.
Nope.
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Going by the rosters of playoff teams last season, Grabovski would be the #2 center on the Blues (division winner, 2nd most points in NHL)
No.
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Blackhawks
Only because they prefer to use Sharp and Kane at wing, and want to use Bolland in the 3C role.
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Capitals
Last year was odd for the Caps as Backstrom was injured for half of the season. Grabo probably outplayed Johansson but I wouldn't put him above Laich, who normally plays the wing despite being a natural center. So that's arguable as to where Grabo goes, depending on how you handle Laich.
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Panthers
Probably.
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Senators
Probably a wash with Turris at best.
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the #1 center on the Coyotes
He's #2 in Phoenix; Martin Hanzal is better.
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and roughly on par with the #2 centers of the Rangers (conference winner, 2nd most points in NHL, conference finals),
I can see "on par" with Stepan.
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Devils (Stanley Cup Final)
The thing is... Elias is the Devils' normal 2C. Zajac, who missed most of the season but was healthy for the playoffs, is the 1C.
Is Grabo >= Elias? Hell no.
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Predators (104 points, 5th in NHL). A team could absolutely be a contender with Grabovski as their #2 center.
Here you're pretty close. Grabo is right in line offensively with Fisher and Legwand. Except that he doesn't have the kind of defensive game those two do, especially Fisher.
Grabovski could probably fit onto a pretender. Or maybe in two or three years as his game evolves and develops he'll be there. But not yet.
I do understand this, If the Leafs did have a shut down line, it surely didn't work. The Leafs have finished 30th, 29th, 24th, 29th in GA the last 4 years.
Which is a statistic that involves 19+ players, and not just Grabovski or his line.
wrong, he's an above average second line Centre I would go as far as saying he is an elite number 2 centre. Defensively sound, he plays against the other teams top lines and still manages to put up 55-60. He's so under rated its frustrating. I would go as far as saying he's the leafs most important forward. Thats the problem though... he shouldn't be our best forward he should be our 4th best forward on the second line.. That's why we desperately need a number 1 so Grabovski doesn't have to be that guy.
I suspect about half the votes for are from Leafs fans.
So amongst unbiased fans of other teams, Grabovski is NOT a player a team who wants a Cup would have in their top six like the Leafs are hoping and paying him to do.
