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Is Grabovski a top-six centre on a contender?

View Poll Results: Is Grabovski a first or second line centre on a contender?
Yes 164 56.94%
No 77 26.74%
Not if they want to win 47 16.32%
Voters: 288. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-19-2012, 06:24 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by The Podium View Post
There is a difference between a fan and a bad defensive play.
Fanning is one thing, attempting to pass a puck a foot in front of your own goal is not a smart defensive play. The safe play is around the boards.

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12-19-2012, 06:43 AM
  #177
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2011-2012 season

Here are the rosters of the top 23 teams for the 2011-2012 season, pretty conclusive Grabovoski wouldn't be a top 6 Center on a contending team with the exception of perhaps Phoenix and Florida, infact he would have trouble cracking the top 6 on non contenders also.
Contenders

1-Van 1. Sedin 2. Kesler Would only be a 3C
2-NY R 1. Richards 2. Stepan 3. Boyle Rather have Stepan and Boyle at 2/3C
3-Pitt 1. Malkin 2. Crosby 3. Staal Wouldn’t crack top 3
4-St L 1. Backes 2. Berglund, 3.Mcdonald Couldn’t crack top 3
5-Boston 1.Krejci 2. Bergeron 3. Kelly Couldn’t crack top 2, prefer Kelly at 3C
6-Nashville 1. Legwand 2.Fisher 3.Gaustaud Couldn’t crack top 2, prefer Gaustaud as checking 3C
7-NJ 1. Zajac, 2 Henriques 3. Zubrus Prefer Henriques, maybe 3C to Zubrus
8-Det 1. Datsyuk 2. Zetterberg 3. Filppula Couldn’t crack top 3
9-Phil 1. Giroux 2. Schenn 3. Couturier Prefer any of these top 3
10-Chi 1. Toews. 2. Sharp 3. Bolland Couldn’t crack top 3 if Sharp plays Center11-SJ 1. Thornton 2. Couture 3. Pavelski Wouldn’t crack top 31
2-Phoenix 1. Hanzal 2. Vermette Maybe #2C, though think Vermette is pretty even with Grabovski
13-LA 1. Kopitar 2. Richards 3. Stoll Wouldn’t crack top 2, Stoll better 3C option
14-Flor 1. Weiss 2. Goc Maybe #2C, certainly a #3

Non Contenders

15-Wash 1. Backstrom 2. Laich 3. Johansson Would take Laich with his all around game at #2C, though better than Johannson
16-Ott 1. Spezza 2. Turris 3. Smith Take Grabovski at #2C
17-Cal 1. Jokinen 2. Backlund/Cammalleri Take Grabvoski at #2C
18-Dal 1. Benn 2. Ribeiro No better then #3C on Dallas
19-Buff 1. Roy 2. Hodgson 3. Boyes Take Grabvoski at #2C
20-Col 1. Duchene 2. Stastny 3. Landeskog/O’Reilly Couldn’t crack top 3
21-TB 1. Stamos 2. Lecavalier 3 Moore Couldn’t crack top 3
22-Win 1. Antropov 2. Little 3. Wellwood Would prefer Little at #2C
23-Carolina 1. Staal 2. Ruuto 3. Sutter Couldn’t crack top 3

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12-19-2012, 10:16 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Here are the rosters of the top 23 teams for the 2011-2012 season, pretty conclusive Grabovoski wouldn't be a top 6 Center on a contending team with the exception of perhaps Phoenix and Florida, infact he would have trouble cracking the top 6 on non contenders also.
Contenders

1-Van 1. Sedin 2. Kesler Would only be a 3C
2-NY R 1. Richards 2. Stepan 3. Boyle Rather have Stepan and Boyle at 2/3C
3-Pitt 1. Malkin 2. Crosby 3. Staal Wouldn’t crack top 3
4-St L 1. Backes 2. Berglund, 3.Mcdonald Couldn’t crack top 3
5-Boston 1.Krejci 2. Bergeron 3. Kelly Couldn’t crack top 2, prefer Kelly at 3C
6-Nashville 1. Legwand 2.Fisher 3.Gaustaud Couldn’t crack top 2, prefer Gaustaud as checking 3C
7-NJ 1. Zajac, 2 Henriques 3. Zubrus Prefer Henriques, maybe 3C to Zubrus
8-Det 1. Datsyuk 2. Zetterberg 3. Filppula Couldn’t crack top 3
9-Phil 1. Giroux 2. Schenn 3. Couturier Prefer any of these top 3
10-Chi 1. Toews. 2. Sharp 3. Bolland Couldn’t crack top 3 if Sharp plays Center11-SJ 1. Thornton 2. Couture 3. Pavelski Wouldn’t crack top 31
2-Phoenix 1. Hanzal 2. Vermette Maybe #2C, though think Vermette is pretty even with Grabovski
13-LA 1. Kopitar 2. Richards 3. Stoll Wouldn’t crack top 2, Stoll better 3C option
14-Flor 1. Weiss 2. Goc Maybe #2C, certainly a #3

Non Contenders

15-Wash 1. Backstrom 2. Laich 3. Johansson Would take Laich with his all around game at #2C, though better than Johannson
16-Ott 1. Spezza 2. Turris 3. Smith Take Grabovski at #2C
17-Cal 1. Jokinen 2. Backlund/Cammalleri Take Grabvoski at #2C
18-Dal 1. Benn 2. Ribeiro No better then #3C on Dallas
19-Buff 1. Roy 2. Hodgson 3. Boyes Take Grabvoski at #2C
20-Col 1. Duchene 2. Stastny 3. Landeskog/O’Reilly Couldn’t crack top 3
21-TB 1. Stamos 2. Lecavalier 3 Moore Couldn’t crack top 3
22-Win 1. Antropov 2. Little 3. Wellwood Would prefer Little at #2C
23-Carolina 1. Staal 2. Ruuto 3. Sutter Couldn’t crack top 3
This is stupid, first of all there are stats proving he is one of the better defensive Cs in the game. Not to mention the problems with your analysis.

Van - if they get a solid #2 C they'd consider switch Kesler to wing so Grabovski may in fact be a #2 C
NYR - Grabovski is better all around than Stepan and you'd be really stretching it to say he would displace him from the lineup
Pitt - 3C is sutter, Grabovski is better
St. Louis - Grabovski is easily better than berglund and McDonald doesn't play C
Boston - if a team doesn't do a bottom6/top 6 lineup then Grabovski is definitely a better option than Kelly
Nashville - better then all 3....
New Jersey - on par with both henrique and zajac he can easily be #1
Chicago - without a doubt #2 sharp doesn't play C anymore
Phoinex - would be number 1, hanzal is better but for his D capabilities
Florida - definitely a #2 maybe a #1....
Washington - he's better than laich and laich can play W, regardless would battle riberio for #2 spot
Ottawa - easily #2
Calgary - no more jokinen, would battle cammelleri for #1 only because it isn't his natural position
Dallas - could battle for #2 but because of Roy, riberio isn't there
Buffalo - far and above #1, no more Roy
Tampa bay- would battle vinny for #2, at this point they are the same calibre
Winnipeg - jokinen is their #1, Grabovski would battle for #1
Caroline, depending on what they do with j. Staal he could be 2 or 3

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12-19-2012, 10:24 AM
  #179
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This is stupid, first of all there are stats proving he is one of the better defensive Cs in the game. Not to mention the problems with your analysis.

Van - if they get a solid #2 C they'd consider switch Kesler to wing so Grabovski may in fact be a #2 C
NYR - Grabovski is better all around than Stepan and you'd be really stretching it to say he would displace him from the lineup
Pitt - 3C is sutter, Grabovski is better
St. Louis - Grabovski is easily better than berglund and McDonald doesn't play C
Boston - if a team doesn't do a bottom6/top 6 lineup then Grabovski is definitely a better option than Kelly
Nashville - better then all 3....
New Jersey - on par with both henrique and zajac he can easily be #1
Chicago - without a doubt #2 sharp doesn't play C anymore
Phoinex - would be number 1, hanzal is better but for his D capabilities
Florida - definitely a #2 maybe a #1....
Washington - he's better than laich and laich can play W, regardless would battle riberio for #2 spot
Ottawa - easily #2
Calgary - no more jokinen, would battle cammelleri for #1 only because it isn't his natural position
Dallas - could battle for #2 but because of Roy, riberio isn't there
Buffalo - far and above #1, no more Roy
Tampa bay- would battle vinny for #2, at this point they are the same calibre
Winnipeg - jokinen is their #1, Grabovski would battle for #1
Caroline, depending on what they do with j. Staal he could be 2 or 3
Wrong on many accounts, See you missed the part of 11-12 season.

Try reading the post next time. If you think people think Grabovski is better than Stepan, start a poll.

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12-19-2012, 10:29 AM
  #180
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Real contenders

11-12 season, very clear other than Phoenix, Grabovski doesn't crack the vast majority of contenders top 6 C's.

Contenders

1-Van 1. Sedin 2. Kesler Would only be a 3C
2-NY R 1. Richards 2. Stepan 3. Boyle Rather have Stepan and Boyle at 2/3C
3-Pitt 1. Malkin 2. Crosby 3. Staal Wouldn’t crack top 3
4-St L 1. Backes 2. Berglund, 3.Mcdonald Couldn’t crack top 3
5-Boston 1.Krejci 2. Bergeron 3. Kelly Couldn’t crack top 2, prefer Kelly at 3C
6-Nashville 1. Legwand 2.Fisher 3.Gaustaud Couldn’t crack top 2, prefer Gaustaud as checking 3C
7-NJ 1. Zajac, 2 Henriques 3. Zubrus Prefer Henriques, maybe 3C to Zubrus
8-Det 1. Datsyuk 2. Zetterberg 3. Filppula Couldn’t crack top 3
9-Phil 1. Giroux 2. Schenn 3. Couturier Prefer any of these top 3
10-Chi 1. Toews. 2. Sharp 3. Bolland Couldn’t crack top 3 if Sharp plays Center
11-SJ 1. Thornton 2. Couture 3. Pavelski Wouldn’t crack top 31
2-Phoenix 1. Hanzal 2. Vermette Maybe #2C, though think Vermette is pretty even with Grabovski
13-LA 1. Kopitar 2. Richards 3. Stoll Wouldn’t crack top 2, Stoll better 3C option

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12-19-2012, 10:55 AM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
11-12 season, very clear other than Phoenix, Grabovski doesn't crack the vast majority of contenders top 6 C's.

Contenders

1-Van 1. Sedin 2. Kesler Would only be a 3C
2-NY R 1. Richards 2. Stepan 3. Boyle Rather have Stepan and Boyle at 2/3C
3-Pitt 1. Malkin 2. Crosby 3. Staal Wouldn’t crack top 3
4-St L 1. Backes 2. Berglund, 3.Mcdonald Couldn’t crack top 3
5-Boston 1.Krejci 2. Bergeron 3. Kelly Couldn’t crack top 2, prefer Kelly at 3C
6-Nashville 1. Legwand 2.Fisher 3.Gaustaud Couldn’t crack top 2, prefer Gaustaud as checking 3C
7-NJ 1. Zajac, 2 Henriques 3. Zubrus Prefer Henriques, maybe 3C to Zubrus
8-Det 1. Datsyuk 2. Zetterberg 3. Filppula Couldn’t crack top 3
9-Phil 1. Giroux 2. Schenn 3. Couturier Prefer any of these top 3
10-Chi 1. Toews. 2. Sharp 3. Bolland Couldn’t crack top 3 if Sharp plays Center
11-SJ 1. Thornton 2. Couture 3. Pavelski Wouldn’t crack top 31
2-Phoenix 1. Hanzal 2. Vermette Maybe #2C, though think Vermette is pretty even with Grabovski
13-LA 1. Kopitar 2. Richards 3. Stoll Wouldn’t crack top 2, Stoll better 3C option
Again he's better than Stepan, berglund, legwand, fisher, schenn/couturier, vermette last season and would be on par or a better fit than zajac, henrique, sharp, and hanzal.... And like I said Vancouver would consider shifting Kesler to wing if a solid top 6 C was acquired.

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12-19-2012, 11:20 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by The Podium View Post
Again he's better than Stepan, berglund, legwand, fisher, schenn/couturier, vermette last season and would be on par or a better fit than zajac, henrique, sharp, and hanzal.... And like I said Vancouver would consider shifting Kesler to wing if a solid top 6 C was acquired.
Stepan is already a better playmaker than Grabovski, younger and has more upside, Berglund has size, plays well in a Hitchcock defensive system.

No way Grabovski has the intangibles of Legwand or Fisher or Zajac or Henriques(who just plays big in big situations) Sharp, Hanzal like to see you poll this one.

The only player I would say is a saw off is Vermette, infactI would take Grabovski over him by a slim margin, but not by much.

Again confirms that the vast majority of players on the contenders list are a notch above Grabvoski.

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12-19-2012, 11:39 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Stepan is already a better playmaker than Grabovski, younger and has more upside, Berglund has size, plays well in a Hitchcock defensive system.

No way Grabovski has the intangibles of Legwand or Fisher or Zajac or Henriques(who just plays big in big situations) Sharp, Hanzal like to see you poll this one.

The only player I would say is a saw off is Vermette, infactI would take Grabovski over him by a slim margin, but not by much.

Again confirms that the vast majority of players on the contenders list are a notch above Grabvoski.
Stepan is worse overall offensively, defensively and skates like he's in a sand pit. Age and potential shouldn't matter considering Grabovski is currently better and NYR were a contender with an inferior player.

Berglund is not as strong offensively and is more suited for a defensive role, and Grabovski is an incredible defensive player despite your baseless arguments and would be well suited on hitchcocks system.

Grabovski brings the intangibles that legwand and fisher and zajac and henrique do while being better offensively at worst they are on par but that does not mean Grabovski can't displace them out of a lineup especially considering Grabovski has been better than all last season

Sharp does not play C, not matter how much you want to argue it sharp plays wing there is a reason why Kane or Kruger were the 2 C while sharp played LW

I said hanzal was better but he is more suited in a defensive role. For a team lacking offense you can't seriously believe that they'd choose hanzal over Grabovski is offensive situations!

There is no basis of your arguments and your going by personally perceived value and preference.

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12-19-2012, 11:45 AM
  #184
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Pfft... The 'he wouldn't be a 2nd line center on that, that or that team' argument. It's the wrong way to look at it. Grabovski wouldn't be a 2nd line center in Vancouver, because they have already have a #1 and #2 center.

But if you replaced Kesler with Grabovski, they're still a cup contender. So yes, you could easily be cup contender with Grabovski on your 2nd line. Teams have won cups with worse 2nd line centers.


Last edited by Elvs: 12-19-2012 at 12:00 PM.
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12-19-2012, 11:55 AM
  #185
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Pfft... The 'he wouldn't be a 2nd line center on that, that or that team' argument. It's the wrong way to look at it. Grabovski wouldn't be a 2nd line center in Vancouver, because they have already have a #1 and #2 center.

But if you replaced Kesler with Grabovski, they're still a cup contender. So yes, you could easily be cup contender with Grabovski on your 2nd line. Teams have won cups with worse 2nd line centers.
That's fine if we lived in a world of if. The point is he would be a downgrade to the vast majority of Centers on the contenders list.

Also Grabovski's offensive numbers, modest as they are for a center that had 51 points last year was achieved on very bad defensive teams. 29th in GAA last year in a system that flatters stats. It is reasonable to believe his numbers would not even approach 51 points under a Hitchcock or Tortorella system.

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12-19-2012, 11:59 AM
  #186
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Stepan is already a better playmaker than Grabovski, younger and has more upside, Berglund has size, plays well in a Hitchcock defensive system.
Not that Andy McDonald plays center in the Blues, but you still listed him as the Blues 3rd best center. When in reality he's easily better than Berglund...

Grabovski is probably a top 40 center in the league, or around there. How is that not good enough to be a 2nd line center on a contender? Heck, he could be a #1 center on a contender if his linemates were Ovechkin and Perry, and the team had Weber on defense and Rinne in net...

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12-19-2012, 12:00 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
That's fine if we lived in a world of if. The point is he would be a downgrade to the vast majority of Centers on the contenders list.

Also Grabovski's offensive numbers, modest as they are for a center that had 51 points last year was achieved on very bad defensive teams. 29th in GAA last year in a system that flatters stats. It is reasonable to believe his numbers would not even approach 51 points under a Hitchcock or Tortorella system.
56 over 82 games playing with two wingers who'd be considered tweeners based on last season. He also played strong defensively on a weak defensive team, so much so he was top 5 in the league in some defensive stats.

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12-19-2012, 12:01 PM
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Not that Andy McDonald plays center in the Blues, but you still listed him as the Blues 3rd best center. When in reality he's easily better than Berglund...

Grabovski is probably a top 40 center in the league, or around there. How is that not good enough to be a 2nd line center on a contender? Heck, he could be a #1 center on a contender if his linemates were Ovechkin and Perry, and the team had Weber on defense and Rinne in net...
This is exactly it, consistently skewing reality to fit his argument and even then he's still way off.

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12-19-2012, 12:06 PM
  #189
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56 over 82 games playing with two wingers who'd be considered tweeners based on last season. He also played strong defensively on a weak defensive team, so much so he was top 5 in the league in some defensive stats.
Kulemin scored 30 goals in 10-11, Macarthur 21. Grabovski had only 29 assists the same year.

They get a bad rap, yet he hasn't shown to have been successful with any other wingers in his career, there are better Center's that don't need that excuse, if you are good enough you won't need the bad linemates disclaimer.

The Leafs played a Ron Wilson system that often finished on the bottom of the league in GA, one that flattered offensive stats. Berglund and Stepan played in defensive systems, big difference.

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12-19-2012, 12:07 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
11-12 season, very clear other than Phoenix, Grabovski doesn't crack the vast majority of contenders top 6 C's.

Contenders

1-Van 1. Sedin 2. Kesler Would only be a 3C
2-NY R 1. Richards 2. Stepan 3. Boyle Rather have Stepan and Boyle at 2/3C
3-Pitt 1. Malkin 2. Crosby 3. Staal Wouldn’t crack top 3
4-St L 1. Backes 2. Berglund, 3.Mcdonald Couldn’t crack top 3
5-Boston 1.Krejci 2. Bergeron 3. Kelly Couldn’t crack top 2, prefer Kelly at 3C
6-Nashville 1. Legwand 2.Fisher 3.Gaustaud Couldn’t crack top 2, prefer Gaustaud as checking 3C
7-NJ 1. Zajac, 2 Henriques 3. Zubrus Prefer Henriques, maybe 3C to Zubrus
8-Det 1. Datsyuk 2. Zetterberg 3. Filppula Couldn’t crack top 3
9-Phil 1. Giroux 2. Schenn 3. Couturier Prefer any of these top 3
10-Chi 1. Toews. 2. Sharp 3. Bolland Couldn’t crack top 3 if Sharp plays Center
11-SJ 1. Thornton 2. Couture 3. Pavelski Wouldn’t crack top 31
2-Phoenix 1. Hanzal 2. Vermette Maybe #2C, though think Vermette is pretty even with Grabovski
13-LA 1. Kopitar 2. Richards 3. Stoll Wouldn’t crack top 2, Stoll better 3C option
The problem is your analysis is absurd and very clearly biased.

Do I need to remind you of this? Stats the past 4 seasons, which includes all of Grabovski's full seasons in the NHL. If I wanted to just to the past 2 Grabovski would've destroyed these guys (including Zajac) even more, but that wasn't good enough for you.

Mikhail Grabovski:
292GP, 192P, 0.66 points per game

Travis Zajac:
261GP, 179P, 0.69 points per game

Mike Fisher:
311GP, 172P, 0.55 points per game

Patrik Berglund
310GP, 163P, 0.44 points per game

Brooks Laich
324GP, 201P, 0.62 points per game

Kyle Turris
185GP, 75P, 0.40 points per game
Probably a little unfair, but hey, Interactif was the one who said it was a wash. Even if you want to just look at his good half-season in Ottawa (recency card! ), he had 0.59 points per game.

Matin Hanzal
280GP, 124P, 0.44 points per game

David Legwand
297GP, 174P, 0.59 points per game

Antoine Vermette
325GP, 190P, 0.58 points per game

Grabovski is better than Henrique, Schenn and Stepan now, Chicago likes Sharp on the wing hence why they're looking for a #2C.

By definition if Grabovski made even one of these teams he could be considered a top 6 center on a contender.

He'd be the #1 center on:
Phoenix
Nashville
Arguably New Jersey

#2 center on:
Ottawa
Washington
Chicago
New York
New Jersey
Philadelphia (using your lineup)
St. Louis

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12-19-2012, 12:08 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Elvstrand View Post
Not that Andy McDonald plays center in the Blues, but you still listed him as the Blues 3rd best center. When in reality he's easily better than Berglund...

Grabovski is probably a top 40 center in the league, or around there. How is that not good enough to be a 2nd line center on a contender? Heck, he could be a #1 center on a contender if his linemates were Ovechkin and Perry, and the team had Weber on defense and Rinne in net...
Crosby would too, infact can say that about just about anyone Center. Not a convincing argument.

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12-19-2012, 12:11 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
The problem is your analysis is absurd and very clearly biased.

Do I need to remind you of this? Stats the past 4 seasons, which includes all of Grabovski's full seasons in the NHL. If I wanted to just to the past 2 Grabovski would've destroyed these guys (including Zajac) even more, but that wasn't good enough for you.

Mikhail Grabovski:
292GP, 192P, 0.66 points per game

Travis Zajac:
261GP, 179P, 0.69 points per game

Mike Fisher:
311GP, 172P, 0.55 points per game

Patrik Berglund
310GP, 163P, 0.44 points per game

Brooks Laich
324GP, 201P, 0.62 points per game

Kyle Turris
185GP, 75P, 0.40 points per game
Probably a little unfair, but hey, Interactif was the one who said it was a wash. Even if you want to just look at his good half-season in Ottawa (recency card! ), he had 0.59 points per game.

Matin Hanzal
280GP, 124P, 0.44 points per game

David Legwand
297GP, 174P, 0.59 points per game

Antoine Vermette
325GP, 190P, 0.58 points per game

Grabovski is better than Henrique, Schenn and Stepan now, Chicago likes Sharp on the wing hence why they're looking for a #2C.

By definition if Grabovski made even one of these teams he could be considered a top 6 center on a contender.

He'd be the #1 center on:
Phoenix
Nashville
Arguably New Jersey

#2 center on:
Ottawa
Washington
Chicago
New York
New Jersey
Philadelphia (using your lineup)
St. Louis
If you are that confident, do a poll of Grabo vs Zajac or Fisher, we did Henriques already. Points do not make a player, only part of it. 51 points in a defenceless pourous team does not equal 51 points playing for a defensive team like the Devils.

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12-19-2012, 12:21 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
If you are that confident, do a poll of Grabo vs Zajac or Fisher, we did Henriques already. Points do not make a player, only part of it. 51 points in a defenceless pourous team does not equal 51 points playing for a defensive team like the Devils.
Stats say more than "I do not like player A therefore players X Y and Z are better than him just cause I say so without anything to back up my opinion" and they also say more than an hfboards poll.

A team having a lot of goals against does not magically make it easier for players on the team to score more, that's absurd. Considering that we have already shown to you that Grabovski fares excellently with defensive metrics, your argument is pretty weak. Your only retort was that Kulemin plays on Grabovski's line. If Kulemin was so ridiculously good defensively that he could make Grabovski's (the guy who just cherry picks in the offensive zone and doesn't know what the word defense means according to you) defensive metrics so great, he'd be a perennial Selke finalist. But I'm pretty sure he has never received a vote. Kulemin is good defensively, but he does not have some magical ability to carry Grabovski defensively if Grabovski plays the way you act like he plays.

The fact is, there are arguments that Grabovski is better offensively and defensively than most of these players that you're saying are better than him, and you have literally no argument. None. Nothing. The closest thing you have to an argument is that Toronto finished poorly in team goals against, which is pretty absurd. Chicago has one of if not the best forward in the World defensively as their #1 center, and they still finished in the bottom third of the league in goals against. Whenever somebody presents an argument to you, you put your fingers in your ears and scream, "NUH-UH! NUH-UH! NUH-UH!". It's honestly kinda sad.

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12-19-2012, 12:22 PM
  #194
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Crosby would too, infact can say that about just about anyone Center. Not a convincing argument.
Your logic as I understand it: Grabovski is not a #2 center on a contender because he's not any better than Krejci, Couture, Kesler, etc etc...

So, can't Patrice Bergeron be a #1 center on a cup contender? He wouldn't be ahead of Toews in Chicago, or Datsyuk in Detroit, or Kopitar in LA, or Richards in NY, or Giroux in Philly, or Malkin/Crosby in Pittsburgh, or Thornton in San Jose, or Sedin in Vancouver, or Backstrom in Washington... Heck, he'd be behind Getzlaf, Spezza, Tavares, Stamkos, Staal on their respective teams too. I guess he's not even a #1 center on an average/bad team.

If San Jose were to get Grabovski somehow... One would assume that one of Marleau, Pavelski, Couture or Thornton wouldn't stick around. From Couture to Grabovski is probably a downgrade, but is it big enough to make the Sharks go from a clear cut contender to a clear cut non-contender? Nope.


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12-19-2012, 12:46 PM
  #195
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Kulemin scored 30 goals in 10-11, Macarthur 21. Grabovski had only 29 assists the same year.

They get a bad rap, yet he hasn't shown to have been successful with any other wingers in his career, there are better Center's that don't need that excuse, if you are good enough you won't need the bad linemates disclaimer.

The Leafs played a Ron Wilson system that often finished on the bottom of the league in GA, one that flattered offensive stats. Berglund and Stepan played in defensive systems, big difference.
I said last season. The fact that he's had the same PPG in years where his line mates had career years and in years where they were at career worst means that he is forming offence on his own. He is the player that has a supporting cast rather then being a supporting player.

No chemistry?

With Grabovski Without Grabovski
Brown 0.509 0.471
Connolly 0.556 0.472
Crabb 0.476 0.486
Frattin 0.552 0.440
Kessel 0.635 0.483
Kulemin 0.525 0.470
Lombardi 0.441 0.464
Lupul. 0.592 0.480
MacArthur 0.560 0.445

With Bozak Without Bozak
Brown 0.450 0.474
Connolly 0.470 0.479
Crabb 0.455 0.486
Frattin 0.407 0.503
Kessel 0.488 0.508
Kulemin 0.259 0.521
Lombardi 0.445 0.468
Lupul. 0.495 0.466
MacArthur 0.424 0.524

http://theleafsnation.com/2012/8/20/...y-of-centremen

His defensive capabilities ( rest of the list is in the link)

2011-12 Corsi REL QoC Corsi REL ES G/60 ES Pts/60 PP G/60 PP Pts/60 ES SA/60 ES GA/60
Mikhail Grabovski 0.682 13.0 1.03 2.46 1.88 4.24 26.6 2.56
Patrice Bergeron 0.521 15.1 1.00 2.72 1.18 4.34 25.1 1.86
Ryan Kesler 0.560 14.4 0.81 1.78 1.64 3.62 26.4 1.63

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/20...-well-play-him

Name CORSI REL
09/10 10/11 11/12 Average
1 Mikhail Grabovski 13.6 21.3 12.7 15.87
2 Henrik Sedin 13.9 11 21.4 15.43
3 Ryan Kesler 11 18.2 15.1 14.77
4 Sidney Crosby 11.4 3.3 29.1 14.60
5 Jonathan Toews 8.8 14.3 13.5 12.20
6 Patrice Bergeron 11.8 11.6 11.6 11.67
7 Ryan Getzlaf 10.7 12.5 10.8 11.33
8 Andy McDonald 3.6 9.2 20.7 11.17
9 Nicklas Backstrom 13.9 12.1 7.4 11.13
10 Pavel Datsyuk 9.9 9.1 13.6 10.87

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/20...hail-grabovski

Some other things you should take a look at.... Ppg per 60 minutes among all Cs

Name Points / 60min Trend
09/10 10/11 11/12 Average
1 Sidney Crosby 3.41 3.98 4.31 3.9 +
2 Henrik Sedin 3.96 2.78 2.55 3.096667 -
3 Steven Stamkos 2.56 2.71 2.98 2.75 +
4 Evgeni Malkin 2.62 2.17 3.37 2.72
5 Pavel Datsyuk 2.13 2.72 2.9 2.583333 +
6 Patrice Bergeron 2.23 2.46 2.93 2.54 +
7 Nicklas Backstrom 3.03 2.01 2.21 2.416667
8 Patrick Sharp 2.33 2.31 2.58 2.406667 +
9 Jason Spezza 2.33 2.51 2.35 2.396667
10 Jonathan Toews 2.15 2.37 2.66 2.393333 +
11 David Krecji 1.77 2.76 2.57 2.366667
12 Henrik Zetterberg 2.29 2.41 2.29 2.33
13 Joe Thornton 2.76 1.73 2.39 2.293333 -
14 Anze Kopitar 1.94 2.68 2.16 2.26
15 Andy McDonald 1.85 2.19 2.71 2.25 +
16 Claude Giroux 1.48 2.69 2.5 2.223333
17 Brad Richards 2.57 2.51 1.54 2.206667
18 Joe Pavelski 2.33 2.04 2.13 2.166667
19 Patrick Marleau 2.61 1.97 1.9 2.16 -
20 Mikhail Grabovski 1.96 2.06 2.43 2.15 +
21 Alex Steen 2.11 2.12 2.17 2.133333 +
22 Derek Roy 2.13 2.53 1.74 2.133333
23 David Backes 2.11 2.16 2.09 2.12
24 Logan Couture 1.96 2.18 2.2 2.113333 +
25 Vincent Lecavalier 2.27 1.63 2.4 2.1
26 Mike Riberio 1.7 2.26 2.3 2.086667 +
27 Nik Antropov 2.59 1.53 2.1 2.073333
28 Ryan Getzlaf 2.55 2.31 1.35 2.07 -
29 John Tavares 1.42 2.02 2.65 2.03 +
30 Jordan Staal 2.11 1.84 2.11 2.02
31 Ryan Nugent-Hopkins n/a n/a 2.02 2.02
32 Tim Connolly 2.24 1.65 2.09 1.993333
33 Ryan Kesler 2.29 2 1.68 1.99 -
34 Adam Henrique n/a n/a 1.98 1.98
35 Eric Staal 2.48 1.86 1.6 1.98 -
36 Jeff Carter 1.98 2.48 1.45 1.97
37 Travis Zajac 2.16 1.55 2.16 1.956667
38 Tomas Plekanec 2.07 1.91 1.86 1.946667 -
39 Mikko Koivu 2.09 2.19 1.48 1.92
40 Paul Statsny 2.42 1.83 1.39 1.88 -
41 Tyler Ennis 2.76 1.92 0.89 1.856667 -
42 Matt Duchene 1.69 2.39 1.45 1.843333
43 Stephen Weiss 1.76 1.43 2.05 1.746667
44 Mike Richards 1.45 2.07 1.72 1.746667

Keeping in mind this goes back to 09/10 so some listed players are now wingers.
http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/20...hail-grabovski

Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
If you are that confident, do a poll of Grabo vs Zajac or Fisher, we did Henriques already. Points do not make a player, only part of it. 51 points in a defenceless pourous team does not equal 51 points playing for a defensive team like the Devils.
56 points prorated, he'd didn't play a full season. Also the difference doesn't make that much of a difference

Liles on TO - 0.41
Career - 0.54

Phaneuf on TO - 0.48
Career - 0.6


Last edited by The Podium: 12-19-2012 at 01:25 PM.
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12-19-2012, 12:49 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
Stats say more than "I do not like player A therefore players X Y and Z are better than him just cause I say so without anything to back up my opinion" and they also say more than an hfboards poll.

A team having a lot of goals against does not magically make it easier for players on the team to score more, that's absurd. Considering that we have already shown to you that Grabovski fares excellently with defensive metrics, your argument is pretty weak. Your only retort was that Kulemin plays on Grabovski's line. If Kulemin was so ridiculously good defensively that he could make Grabovski's (the guy who just cherry picks in the offensive zone and doesn't know what the word defense means according to you) defensive metrics so great, he'd be a perennial Selke finalist. But I'm pretty sure he has never received a vote. Kulemin is good defensively, but he does not have some magical ability to carry Grabovski defensively if Grabovski plays the way you act like he plays.

The fact is, there are arguments that Grabovski is better offensively and defensively than most of these players that you're saying are better than him, and you have literally no argument. None. Nothing. The closest thing you have to an argument is that Toronto finished poorly in team goals against, which is pretty absurd. Chicago has one of if not the best forward in the World defensively as their #1 center, and they still finished in the bottom third of the league in goals against. Whenever somebody presents an argument to you, you put your fingers in your ears and scream, "NUH-UH! NUH-UH! NUH-UH!". It's honestly kinda sad.
Actually I have listed far more tangible proof than you have, by listing the top 6 centers of contending teams. Pretty clear for Grabovski to actually play on one of these contenders last year he would have to beat out and be better than one of them. That's very sound logic isn't it?

Not the hypotheticals of moving Kesler to the wing. Or the if's Grabovski played on one of these contending teams.What you have stated is a simple belief based on nothing but your opinion. I have provided a list of all better centers with the exception of Vermette that Grabbovski would not be able to dislodge for a top 6C spot. Much more convincing than saying IF only he had better wingers. IF he played on a stronger team, only to ignore he wouldn't be a top 6 C on a better team.

Typed on BB.

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12-19-2012, 12:52 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Actually I have listed far more tangible proof than you have, by listing the top 6 centers of contending teams. Pretty clear for Grabovski to actually play on one of these contenders last year he would have to beat out and be better than one of them. That's very sound logic isn't it?

Not the hypotheticals of moving Kesler to the wing. Or the if's Grabovski played on one of these contending teams.What you have stated is a simple belief based on nothing but your opinion. I have provided a list of all better centers with the exception of Vermette that Grabbovski would not be able to dislodge for a top 6C spot. Much more convincing than saying IF only he had better wingers. IF he played on a stronger team, only to ignore he wouldn't be a top 6 C on a better team.

Typed on BB.
Look above, I've provide enough statistical proof to disprove every single on of your arguments, have fun rebuttling

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12-19-2012, 01:21 PM
  #198
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Your logic as I understand it: Grabovski is not a #2 center on a contender because he's not any better than Krejci, Couture, Kesler, etc etc...

So, can't Patrice Bergeron be a #1 center on a cup contender? He wouldn't be ahead of Toews in Chicago, or Datsyuk in Detroit, or Kopitar in LA, or Richards in NY, or Giroux in Philly, or Malkin/Crosby in Pittsburgh, or Thornton in San Jose, or Sedin in Vancouver, or Backstrom in Washington... Heck, he'd be behind Getzlaf, Spezza, Tavares, Stamkos, Staal on their respective teams too. I guess he's not even a #1 center on an average/bad team.

If San Jose were to get Grabovski somehow... One would assume that one of Marleau, Pavelski, Couture or Thornton wouldn't stick around. From Couture to Grabovski is probably a downgrade, but is it big enough to make the Sharks go from a clear cut contender to a clear cut non-contender? Nope.
My point is there would be no room for him on San Jose, Detroit, or Boston, or name just about any other contender, who are you taking off the top 6 to replace him with and say it is an upgrade, Grabovski is fine as a #2C on the Leafs because their Center depth is weak, on better teams he would not make the line up. Hypotheticals saying he could do the same as Krejci are faulty to me. Considering he is not the player Krejci is.

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12-19-2012, 01:23 PM
  #199
The Podium
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My point is there would be no room for him on San Jose, Detroit, or Boston, or name just about any other contender, who are you taking off the top 6 to replace him with and say it is an upgrade, Grabovski is fine as a #2C on the Leafs because their Center depth is weak, on better teams he would not make the line up. Hypotheticals saying he could do the same as Krejci are faulty to me. Considering he is not the player Krejci is.
You ignored another post disproving your arguments, the 3rd time you did so in this thread.

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12-19-2012, 01:25 PM
  #200
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Look above, I've provide enough statistical proof to disprove every single on of your arguments, have fun rebuttling
Cut and pasting articles is a weak ploy, almost as weak as citing crap corsi stats. Did you know where Sid Crosby ranked on the Pens in Corsi?

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