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Is Grabovski a top-six centre on a contender?

View Poll Results: Is Grabovski a first or second line centre on a contender?
Yes 164 56.94%
No 77 26.74%
Not if they want to win 47 16.32%
Voters: 288. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-19-2012, 01:25 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by The Podium View Post
You ignored another post disproving your arguments, the 3rd time you did so in this thread.
Are you going to cut and pasting some more articles, or are you capable of discussing hockey arguments using your own words?

Again citing Corsi stats means what, why not address what proof you have that Grabovski is just as good or better than the list of contending top 6 C's I have posted.

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12-19-2012, 01:27 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
You have more cut and pasting to do, or are you capable of discussing hockey arguments using your own words?
I tried, you ignored them completely using baseless arguments, im now showing statistical proof that you refuse to acknowledge.

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12-19-2012, 01:28 PM
  #203
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My point is there would be no room for him on San Jose, Detroit, or Boston, or name just about any other contender, who are you taking off the top 6 to replace him with and say it is an upgrade, Grabovski is fine as a #2C on the Leafs because their Center depth is weak, on better teams he would not make the line up. Hypotheticals saying he could do the same as Krejci are faulty to me. Considering he is not the player Krejci is.
It's all hypothetical because you don't know what the teams will look like and who will be the contenders in a year or two.

You are pointing out is that Grabovski wouldn't be a #1 or #2 center on some current contenders, because they are already set on those positions. But how does that rule out the possibility of any team going forward, being a cup contender just because Grabovski would be their 2nd line center?

If Toronto signs Getzlaf and Perry next summer, and fixes their goaltending... Are they not a contender just because they have Grabovski?

Obviously we're just interpeting the OP's question differently.

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12-19-2012, 01:29 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Actually I have listed far more tangible proof than you have, by listing the top 6 centers of contending teams. Pretty clear for Grabovski to actually play on one of these contenders last year he would have to beat out and be better than one of them. That's very sound logic isn't it?

Not the hypotheticals of moving Kesler to the wing. Or the if's Grabovski played on one of these contending teams.What you have stated is a simple belief based on nothing but your opinion. I have provided a list of all better centers with the exception of Vermette that Grabbovski would not be able to dislodge for a top 6C spot. Much more convincing than saying IF only he had better wingers. IF he played on a stronger team, only to ignore he wouldn't be a top 6 C on a better team.

Typed on BB.
No, you have not provided any proof of your stance and really nothing to support it at all. Just because you say that players X, Y and Z are better than Grabovski does not make it true. Especially when you have literally nothing to back up your argument. Yes, you have listed top 6 centers on contenders. Myself and other users have provided arguments that suggest Grabovski is better than a lot of those centers. You on the other hand have just said, "Nah, these guys are better" with nothing to support your argument.

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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Again citing Corsi stats means what, why not address what proof you have that Grabovski is just as good or better than the list of contending top 6 C's I have posted.
We have given proof, or at least arguments, that Grabovski is better than a lot of the contending top 6 C's you posted. You are just choosing to ignore it while providing no arguments of your own.

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12-19-2012, 01:30 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by The Podium View Post
I tried, you ignored them completely using baseless arguments, im now showing statistical proof that you refuse to acknowledge.
What statistical proof, cut and pasting corsi stats? There are a tonne of good players that rank low in Corsi, what are you trying to prove. They are random and prove nothing in a value of a player?

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12-19-2012, 01:31 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Cut and pasting articles is a weak ploy, almost as weak as citing crap corsi stats. Did you know where Sid Crosby ranked on the Pens in Corsi?
The first chart uses all defensive stats and matches him against Bergeron and Kesler, quite favourably I might add, the second is relative Corsi showing the difference between shots for while the player was on the ice vs shots against meaning while Grabovski was on the ice the puck was rarely in the defensive zone.

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12-19-2012, 01:33 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
What statistical proof, cut and pasting corsi stats? There are a tonne of good players that rank low in Corsi, what are you trying to prove. They are random and prove nothing in a value of a player?
They weren't Corsi they were relcorsi showing how when Grabovski is on the ice there are many many more shots for than against, the fact that he leads e league in this statistic shows his defensive capabilities, I also showed how he matches up offensively against all Cs in the league and he is kin the top 20, I also matched him up against Kesler and Bergeron with multiple defensive stats included and he compares favourably. Is.os showed his line mates ppg with and without him and almost everyone has been better with him, so your he has no chemistry with anyone and that's troublesome argument was just flushed down the drain.

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12-19-2012, 01:34 PM
  #208
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I've never seen somebody so in denial on hfboards, and that's really saying something. Every statistical argument in favour of Grabovski apparently doesn't count, because the only thing that matters in determining a player's worth is Interactif's personal opinion, which he does not have to back up or defend. He just has to state it, and it is true.


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12-19-2012, 01:34 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
No, you have not provided any proof of your stance and really nothing to support it at all. Just because you say that players X, Y and Z are better than Grabovski does not make it true. Especially when you have literally nothing to back up your argument. Yes, you have listed top 6 centers on contenders. Myself and other users have provided arguments that suggest Grabovski is better than a lot of those centers. You on the other hand have just said, "Nah, these guys are better" with nothing to support your argument.

We have given proof, or at least arguments, that Grabovski is better than a lot of the contending top 6 C's you posted. You are just choosing to ignore it while providing no arguments of your own.
Hey my proof is a lot better than Grabovski needs better wingers or a better team, all the while ignoring Kulemin actually scored 30 goals once and Macarthur 21, not as bad as one would be led to believe.

See who Kesler played with in 10-11? How did he do? No excuses to his production.

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12-19-2012, 01:36 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
I've never seen somebody so in denial on hfboards, and that's really saying something. Every statistical argument in favour of Grabovski apparently doesn't count, because the only thing that matters in determining a player's worth is Interactif's personal opinion, which he does not have to back up or defend. He just has to state it, and it is true.

I'm losing interest in trying to get through to him. Until he can prove without saying "it's because I think so" (indirectly obviously) then I can take nothing he says seriously.

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12-19-2012, 01:38 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by The Podium View Post
They weren't Corsi they were relcorsi showing how when Grabovski is on the ice there are many many more shots for than against, the fact that he leads e league in this statistic shows his defensive capabilities, I also showed how he matches up offensively against all Cs in the league and he is kin the top 20, I also matched him up against Kesler and Bergeron with multiple defensive stats included and he compares favourably. Is.os showed his line mates ppg with and without him and almost everyone has been better with him, so your he has no chemistry with anyone and that's troublesome argument was just flushed down the drain.
He is not even close to Kesler, Bergeron. As you partially explained Corsi crap even measures shots that are not on goal but if they are directed at the opposing goal, it's a plus. It's a bad stat, and in no way validates a player's value as much as you cut and paste.

If anything you and Mastuhninks are proving to be nothing more than Homers.

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12-19-2012, 01:38 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Hey my proof is a lot better than Grabovski needs better wingers or a better team, all the while ignoring Kulemin actually scored 30 goals once and Macarthur 21, not as bad as one would be led to believe.

See who Kesler played with in 10-11? How did he do? No excuses to his production.
I never said tha now all of a sudden it's selective reality. My exact words were his ppg did t change playing with fringe top 6ers last season. there is no disputing that they were last season, obviously they are top 6ers but last season was an off year and they were no where close. It's funny how grabovski s ppg did not change even with his line mates lack of production, maybe they were feeding off him.

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12-19-2012, 01:40 PM
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Wait, so now the argument has changed to Grabovski cannot be a top-six centre on a contender because he's a top-six centre on the Leafs and the Leafs are not a contender?

In other news, Steven Stamkos is not a #1 centre on a contender, John Tavares is not a #1 centre on a contender, Carey Price is not a #1 goalie on a contender, etc.

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12-19-2012, 01:47 PM
  #214
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Ok guys,

Point of the thread is, is Grabvoski a top 6 C on a contender? Not Corsi crap stats.

Other than Vermette, who is Grabo better than on this list to displace as a top 6 C on a contender? No hypotheticals of if he were on this team.

1-Van 1. Sedin 2. Kesler
2-NY R 1. Richards 2. Stepan
3-Pitt 1. Malkin 2. Crosby
4-St L 1. Backes 2. Berglund or Mcdonald (take your pick prior to Mcdonald's injury)
5-Boston 1.Krejci 2. Bergeron
6-Nashville 1. Legwand 2.Fisher
7-NJ 1. Zajac, 2 Henriques
8-Det 1. Datsyuk 2. Zetterberg
9-Phil 1. Giroux 2. Schenn
10-Chi 1. Toews. 2. Sharp/Bolland
1-SJ 1. Thornton 2. Couture
2-Phoenix 1. Hanzal 2. Vermette
13-LA 1. Kopitar 2. Richards

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12-19-2012, 01:51 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Ok guys,

Point of the thread is, is Grabvoski a top 6 C on a contender? Not Corsi crap stats.

Other than Vermette, who is Grabo better than on this list to displace as a top 6 C on a contender? No hypotheticals of if he were on this team.

1-Van 1. Sedin 2. Kesler
2-NY R 1. Richards 2. Stepan
3-Pitt 1. Malkin 2. Crosby
4-St L 1. Backes 2. Berglund or Mcdonald (take your pick prior to Mcdonald's injury)
5-Boston 1.Krejci 2. Bergeron
6-Nashville 1. Legwand 2.Fisher
7-NJ 1. Zajac, 2 Henriques
8-Det 1. Datsyuk 2. Zetterberg
9-Phil 1. Giroux 2. Schenn
10-Chi 1. Toews. 2. Sharp/Bolland
1-SJ 1. Thornton 2. Couture
2-Phoenix 1. Hanzal 2. Vermette
13-LA 1. Kopitar 2. Richards
Grabovski is better right now than the bolded. Myself and others have already posted ample proof to support this stance, I'm not sure how many times you need to be told.

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12-19-2012, 01:52 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Ok guys,

Point of the thread is, is Grabvoski a top 6 C on a contender? Not Corsi crap stats.

Other than Vermette, who is Grabo better than on this list to displace as a top 6 C on a contender? No hypotheticals of if he were on this team.

1-Van 1. Sedin 2. Kesler
2-NY R 1. Richards 2. Stepan
3-Pitt 1. Malkin 2. Crosby
4-St L 1. Backes 2. Berglund or Mcdonald (take your pick prior to Mcdonald's injury)
5-Boston 1.Krejci 2. Bergeron
6-Nashville 1. Legwand 2.Fisher
7-NJ 1. Zajac, 2 Henriques
8-Det 1. Datsyuk 2. Zetterberg
9-Phil 1. Giroux 2. Schenn
10-Chi 1. Toews. 2. Sharp/Bolland
1-SJ 1. Thornton 2. Couture
2-Phoenix 1. Hanzal 2. Vermette
13-LA 1. Kopitar 2. Richards
Omg Stepan, berglund, zajac vermette, schenn legwand, henrique and fisher he's better then, is a better #1 than hanzal even though he is not a better player, sharp is a winger, he is better than bolland, and Kesler could play his wing if he was on van. That leaves Pitt, Boston, det, SJS and LA as teams he wouldn't be a top 6 on. Even if he can't displace a C on those teams, replace there #2 C, not including Pittsburgh, and they are no worse. Not to mention zetterberg and couture have experience at W. not to mention the stats prove all of this, you choose not to acknowledge the, because it doesn't fit your argument.

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12-19-2012, 01:56 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by The Podium View Post
Omg Stepan, berglund, zajac vermette, schenn legwand, henrique and fisher he's better then, is a better #1 than hanzal even though he is not a better player, sharp is a winger, he is better than bolland, and Kesler could play his wing if he was on van. That leaves Pitt, Boston, det, SJS and LA as teams he wouldn't be a top 6 on. Even if he can't displace a C on those teams, replace there #2 C, not including Pittsburgh, and they are no worse.
Some of the opposing fan bases would seriously laugh at this post, and say homer. I notice even with your list it is still a vast minority of players on the list, which makes my point.

While Grabovski is not a bad center as I have said a few times, he isn't as good as the vast majority of centers on contenders. He is a #3 on some teams, really he isn't as good as Plekanec as every poll here indicates.

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12-19-2012, 02:01 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Some of the opposing fan bases would seriously laugh at this post, and say homer. I notice even with your list it is still a vast minority of players on the list, which makes my point.

While Grabovski is not a bad center as I have said a few times, he isn't as good as the vast majority of centers on contenders. He is a #3 on some teams, really he isn't as good as Plekanec as every poll here indicates.
Which exactly? Explain to me without using age or potential because thats not part of the discussion how Stepan, berglund, zajac, , vermette, legwand, bolland, schenn, henrique of fisher are better? Explain to me how sharp is not currently a winger. Explain to me why it's so absurd to think thatkesler, zetterberg or couture would move to wing even though it'll greatly bolster the top 6 to use their talents in addition to Grabovski. Explain to me how hanzal is a better top line C option with his limited offence ( ie said many times hanzal is better, he just isn't a true #1 C it's not his game).

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12-19-2012, 02:05 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Ok guys,

Point of the thread is, is Grabvoski a top 6 C on a contender? Not Corsi crap stats.

Other than Vermette, who is Grabo better than on this list to displace as a top 6 C on a contender? No hypotheticals of if he were on this team.

1-Van 1. Sedin 2. Kesler
2-NY R 1. Richards 2. Stepan
3-Pitt 1. Malkin 2. Crosby
4-St L 1. Backes 2. Berglund or Mcdonald (take your pick prior to Mcdonald's injury)
5-Boston 1.Krejci 2. Bergeron
6-Nashville 1. Legwand 2.Fisher
7-NJ 1. Zajac, 2 Henriques
8-Det 1. Datsyuk 2. Zetterberg
9-Phil 1. Giroux 2. Schenn
10-Chi 1. Toews. 2. Sharp/Bolland
11-SJ 1. Thornton 2. Couture
12-Phoenix 1. Hanzal 2. Vermette
13-LA 1. Kopitar 2. Richards
Imo, better than:

1. Neither.
2. Stepan (could change soon though and I expect it will).
3. Neither.
4. Better than Berglund (could change), worse than McDonald but he's usually on the wing.
5. Neither.
6. Better offensively than both, worse defensively than both. Depends on what kind of center you need.
7. Better than Henrique. Zajac only had one really good season three years ago, and it remains to be seen how good he's now having missed a lot of hockey recently.
8. Neither.
9. Schenn was great in the playoffs, but that's a rather small sample size. I'm ranking Grabovski ahead of him until we see how Schenn does centering a 2nd line over the course of an 82 game season.
10. Rather have Grabovski over Bolland on my 2nd line. Rather have Bolland over Grabovski on my 3rd line. Worse than Sharp, but he's usually on the wing.
11. Worse than both.
12. Better than Vermette, better offensively than Hanzal. Depends on needs.
13. Worse than both.

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12-19-2012, 02:05 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Some of the opposing fan bases would seriously laugh at this post, and say homer. I notice even with your list it is still a vast minority of players on the list, which makes my point.
No it doesn't. If he is a top-six centre on just one of those teams, the answer to the poll is yes.

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12-19-2012, 02:10 PM
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So basically this poll is leafs fans say yes and everyone else says no.

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12-19-2012, 02:13 PM
  #222
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So basically this poll is leafs fans say yes and everyone else says no.
Yes, Leafs fans make up 57% of the polls board, which is why Leafs players win every single poll on this board.

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12-19-2012, 02:20 PM
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So basically this poll is leafs fans say yes and everyone else says no.
Te majority are actually non leaf fan but nice try

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12-19-2012, 02:29 PM
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Which exactly? Explain to me without using age or potential because thats not part of the discussion how Stepan, berglund, zajac, , vermette, legwand, bolland, schenn, henrique of fisher are better? Explain to me how sharp is not currently a winger. Explain to me why it's so absurd to think thatkesler, zetterberg or couture would move to wing even though it'll greatly bolster the top 6 to use their talents in addition to Grabovski. Explain to me how hanzal is a better top line C option with his limited offence ( ie said many times hanzal is better, he just isn't a true #1 C it's not his game).
I already did for Stepan, Berglund, and I did say it was a lateral move with Vermette but I would take Grabovski over him in a slight decision.

Schenn brings character, grit, skill, and it was validated by his playoff performance, same with Henriques. Zajac is a proven performer, I shouldn't even have to explain this, but he is a 2 way center with a lot of intangibles, why don't you run a poll and find out what type of player he is to Grabovski. Legwand is a better all around Center, he doesn't play under Wilson's system of padding stats, he plays in a Barry Trotts structured team play, defence first system. Same as Hanzal, I could go on, but you get the driff, there's more to hockey than compiling 50 some odd points on an often lottery team that treated defence with disdain. Something you and the rest of the Grabovski fans seem to not grasp at all. Corsi crap stats and all.

Hopefully one day he gets to play for a winning team, where 44 points, defence and winning are greater discussion points than making excuses about playing partners or 50 point seasons.

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12-19-2012, 02:32 PM
  #225
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I already did for Stepan, Berglund, and I did say it was a lateral move with Vermette but I would take Grabovski over him in a slight decision.

Schenn brings character, grit, skill, and it was validated by his playoff performance, same with Henriques. Zajac is a proven performer, I shouldn't even have to explain this, but he is a 2 way center with a lot of intangibles, why don't you run a poll and find out what type of player he is to Grabovski. Legwand is a better all around Center, he doesn't play under Wilson's system of padding stats, he plays in a Barry Trotts structured team play, defence first system. Same as Hanzal, I could go on, but you get the driff, there's more to hockey than compiling 50 some odd points on an often lottery team that treated defence with disdain. Something you and the rest of the Grabovski fans seem to not grasp at all. Corsi crap stats and all.
So again they are better because of the type of player and because you think so.... The stats back up my claim only your opinion backs up yours. The only ones you can argue Is zajac but even then, production wise and defensively Grabovski blew him out of the water which is incredible considering who zajac had the benefit of playing with, and hanzal but I stand by my claim considering I even recognized hanzal as the better player.

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