Well, it's not like he even had a chance to get many playoff wins. He simply was stuck on one of the worst teams in the league for a few years, and when he finally signed with a good team he got injured before the playoffs.
Like I said earlier, the only "important games" he's really played since 2005 are in international play. He has played 27 games for the Czech Republic in 2005, with a record of 20-7, and 7-1 when facing elimination (and he only gave up one goal in the loss).
I did put Vokoun behind Kiprusoff due to Kiprusoff's 2005-06 season, but it could just as easily have been the other way.
Vokoun and Kiprusoff both posted 0.941 ES Sv% that season; hard to see why you would elevate Kiprusoff over Vokoun based just on that (hell, even though Kiprusoff played 13 more games, Vokoun still faced more rubber).
Thomas' playoff play far outclasses all of these goalies; it really isn't even close. I think that should earn a lot of consideration.
That's definitely true. Of the top four vote getters, whose statistics I've posted, Thomas is the only goalie to have won the Cup since the last lockout. On the list as a whole, Fleury, Ward, and Quick are the other Cup winners.
Thomas and Lundqvist have been the two best goalies since the lockout. Thomas has been more dominant and Lundqvist more consistent. You can put either one #1 depending on whether you value dominance or consistency more.
How did Vokoun end up 7th when his play was clearly superior to a number of goalies ahead of him?
The only one without hardware that is ahead of Vokoun is Luongo. Statistically they're pretty similar, Luongo played 60 games and had a higher GAA, Vokoun had a very marginally higher SV%. Luongo is 2nd most in playoff wins in this time frame, and he also has an Olympic Gold Medal. Obviously he has been in a better position in these seasons, but I still think it shouldn't be ignored.
Since the lockout, Luongo finished 7th, 2nd, 7th, 4th, 10th, 3rd, didn't receive a vote.
Vokoun finished 4th, didn't receive a vote, didn't receive a vote, 9th, didn't receive a vote, didn't receive a vote, didn't receive a vote.
So Luongo was top 10 in 6 of 7 seasons, Vokoun was top 10 twice.
Perhaps you don't like the hardware answer, but I feel like it's pretty relevant. I'm sure you don't have a problem with Thomas or Lundqvist, so let's look at the other players. Brodeur had 2 Vezinas, finishing 2nd, 1st and 1st in Vezina voting in the three seasons after the lockout. That's a pretty long span of time where he was unquestionably the best goalie for that period. Kiprusoff might have worse stats but he also played 113 more games than Vokoun, I don't think any team has been as dependent on their goalie as Calgary has in that 7 year span. On top of that and his Vezina, he has the most wins in that time span, and seeing as how you brought up saves, he has almost 1000 more saves than the next closest goalie in that timespan (Luongo). Miller is the only one I personally think is debatable, Vokoun has consistently been the better goalie but Miller has a Vezina and MVP of the Olympics to his name, he was the best player on his team for 3 100+ point seasons, including a Presidents trophy.
Perhaps Vokoun would be higher on the list if he was put in a better position to succeed, but he was not.
Thomas didn't suck for any of his seasons. The Bruins may have sucked, but Thomas was always above average at least.
He didn't get due credit before he won the Vezina and now it seems some people want to say that 2 Vezina's, a Conn Smyth, and a Stanley Cup aren't good enough to be among the best goaltenders since the lockout.
Way to go. That is quite biased if you ask me. What other goaltender has done what he has since the lockout?
Noboby, that's who.
Maybe if we're talking about "best goalies since the last lockout" we should look at "what has each goalie done since the lockout" - in which case you have to bring up Thomas' 3 seasons that were below average, 2 of which were downright bad.
Thomas might have the highest peak, but he also has a much lower valley than Luongo, Lundqvist, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig
Vokoun is and is going to continue to be criminally underrated.
This, x100. Vokoun is easily in the top-10 for me, probably somewhere between 4th and 7th.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stansfield
His play wasn't superior his numbers were. His number look great because Florida is very liberal with what constitutes a save, so his S% is inflated. Vokoun has ONE playoff win post lockout! When Vokoun starts playing well in important games, then maybe he can be higher than the 7th best.
Let's imagine a goalie who, between lockouts, posts 7 consecutive 45+ win seasons, a save percetange always over 0.925, and 5-8 shutouts a year. Let's also imagine that his team has awful luck in the playoffs, gets injured a bunch, and fails to score many goals. His team is continually ousted in the first round by scores of 3-2, 2-1, and 1-0. He plays in 29 playoff games, winning just 6 and losing 25.
Does that make him a "bad" goalie?
Playoff performance means nothing when you're talking about a goalie's skill level, especially in a scenario such as Vokoun where he's played 5 playoff games.
Thomas' playoff play far outclasses all of these goalies; it really isn't even close. I think that should earn a lot of consideration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SupremefartMachine
That's definitely true. Of the top four vote getters, whose statistics I've posted, Thomas is the only goalie to have won the Cup since the last lockout. On the list as a whole, Fleury, Ward, and Quick are the other Cup winners.
Somebody's missing. The only goalie to play 23+ games from 2005-06 to now (and one of only two to play 20+, the other being Dominik Hasek) in the playoffs and post better than Tim Thomas' 2.07 GAA.
It was 0.27 better, in fact. To match his .928 save percentage (Thomas at .933 is the only goalie over 20 games above him; Quick and Roloson are at .926)
This goalie is also tied with Thomas at 29 wins for third-most since the 2004-05 lockout, but 17 goalies have lost more games.
Tied for third with five playoff shutouts.
And finally, this goaltender was among the best in the league in 2008, and deserved a Vezina nomination but was held back because his partner was also an elite goaltender and he was forced to share time.
This goaltender could legitimately have received two Conn Smythe awards in that span if a few small bounces and one major call by NHL management had gone differently.
This goaltender is, if you haven't yet guessed, Chris Osgood.
Somebody's missing. The only goalie to play 23+ games from 2005-06 to now (and one of only two to play 20+, the other being Dominik Hasek) in the playoffs and post better than Tim Thomas' 2.07 GAA.
It was 0.27 better, in fact. To match his .928 save percentage (Thomas at .933 is the only goalie over 20 games above him; Quick and Roloson are at .926)
This goalie is also tied with Thomas at 29 wins for third-most since the 2004-05 lockout, but 17 goalies have lost more games.
Tied for third with five playoff shutouts.
And finally, this goaltender was among the best in the league in 2008, and deserved a Vezina nomination but was held back because his partner was also an elite goaltender and he was forced to share time.
This goaltender could legitimately have received two Conn Smythe awards in that span if a few small bounces and one major call by NHL management had gone differently.
This goaltender is, if you haven't yet guessed, Chris Osgood.
The huge spike in 1994-95 is misleading as Osgood only played 14 games that season at age 22. He got in 50 games in 1995-96 and posted a .911 save percentage against a league average of just .898 -- quite the difference. Ozzie saved around 15 goals versus what a league average goalie would've stopped given the exact same 1190 shots against. From then, the gap just closes. Osgood was never more than 0.007% better than league average for the rest of his career -- that year was 97-98 where he posted a .913 save percentage versus the league average of .906.
How about comparing his performance to goalies that he shared the net with? Courtesy Jonathan Willis..
- Cameo appearances by Bob Essensa, Tim Chevaldae, Kevin Hodson, Norm Maracle, Ken Wregget, Garth Snow, Brent Johnson, Reinhard Divis, Rick DiPietro, Fred Brathwaite, Ty Conklin, and half a season of Hasek.
- Modest appearances by Mike Vernon (3 seasons at end of career), Manny Legace (3yrs), Jimmy Howard (2.5yrs)
Over his career, Osgood was a 0.905sv% goalie. The ragtag group above had a 0.906 for those teams.
How about a quote from Osgood himself:
Quote:
“If I could sum up my career in Detroit, I was the perfect goalie for the team at the perfect time.”
Maybe if we're talking about "best goalies since the last lockout" we should look at "what has each goalie done since the lockout" - in which case you have to bring up Thomas' 3 seasons that were below average, 2 of which were downright bad.
Thomas might have the highest peak, but he also has a much lower valley than Luongo, Lundqvist, etc.
This, x100. Vokoun is easily in the top-10 for me, probably somewhere between 4th and 7th.
Let's imagine a goalie who, between lockouts, posts 7 consecutive 45+ win seasons, a save percetange always over 0.925, and 5-8 shutouts a year. Let's also imagine that his team has awful luck in the playoffs, gets injured a bunch, and fails to score many goals. His team is continually ousted in the first round by scores of 3-2, 2-1, and 1-0. He plays in 29 playoff games, winning just 6 and losing 25.
Does that make him a "bad" goalie?
Playoff performance means nothing when you're talking about a goalie's skill level, especially in a scenario such as Vokoun where he's played 5 playoff games.
You need to understand, I was not arguing Thomas over Luongo, Brodeur, Lundqvist, I was arguing that he was one of the top 10 goalies since the lockout. I know I would take Thomas since the lockout over anyone because I know his best is better than anyone elses. If someone else wants to choose Luongo, Brodeur, Lundqvist, I understand that, what I don't understand is several people making top 10 lists and leaving Thomas completely off of the list, that is as absurd as making a top 10 list of centers and leaving Malkin off of it because he had a couple of seasons that were average.
I am not getting why Thomas isn't getting more love. The unorthodox style he plays as well as his lightning quick reflexes and especially his numbers in important games are kinds of things you look for in a goalie. Because of his style, you can expect larger variations as opposed to say Carey Price and Can Ward.
Thomas and Lundqvist have been the two best goalies since the lockout. Thomas has been more dominant and Lundqvist more consistent. You can put either one #1 depending on whether you value dominance or consistency more.
That's laughable. Up until this past season Luongo has actually been better than Lundqvist.
__________________
I told ya so. I was right all along!
I'm obviously biased, so take what you will from it, but I typically try to remain objective despite my allegiances. For me, it's the first time I've ever used AINEC. Lundqvist, AINEC. Thomas #2.
I'm obviously biased, so take what you will from it, but I typically try to remain objective despite my allegiances. For me, it's the first time I've ever used AINEC. Lundqvist, AINEC. Thomas #2.
Umm Lundqvist, aside from his Vezina last year, has not been better than Luongo. His failures in the playoffs are bad too (choked vs. Washington in 2009, choked last year by failing to get to the SCF with the best team in the East). I don't see how it's AINEC.
Umm Lundqvist, aside from his Vezina last year, has not been better than Luongo. His failures in the playoffs are bad too (choked vs. Washington in 2009, choked last year by failing to get to the SCF with the best team in the East). I don't see how it's AINEC.
Umm Lundqvist, aside from his Vezina last year, has not been better than Luongo. His failures in the playoffs are bad too (choked vs. Washington in 2009, choked last year by failing to get to the SCF with the best team in the East). I don't see how it's AINEC.
I at least admit my biases. Lundqvist is hands down better than Lundqvist at this point, and besides this past season, the Rangers have been a far inferior team. You'll take that as an insult to your goalie, but it's a compliment to your roster. You think Lundqvist would lose his job to Schneider? I don't.
