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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Dino Ciccarelli vs. Brendan Shanahan

View Poll Results: Who was the better player
Dino Ciccarelli 5 13.16%
Brandan Shanahan 33 86.84%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-11-2012, 03:29 PM
  #26
tarheelhockey
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
You cant just cherrypick those two years.
Looking at their best playoff runs head-to-head is not "cherrypicking".

PlayerSeasonGPGAPLeaguewide GPGOutcome
Ciccarelli198119147217.942Finals loss
Shanahan200223811194.767Cup win

They're not worlds apart or anything, but I'd say there's a clear difference in which one had a better "signature" playoff run.

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Adjust for their whole careers instead which is not an easy task considering Hockey-Reference dont do playoff adjustment. As we know scoring can fluctuate quite a bit come playoff-time.
I'm not sure what you're imagining these numbers would look like, but even a rough glance at Quanthockey's chart showing yearly playoff GPG makes it clear that their scoring gap can be not just eliminated, but reversed when we take league scoring into account. Which is what we would expect when comparing an 80s player to a DPE player with only a small un-adjusted gap between them.

The thing is, raw scoring is where these guys are ranked the closest. Throw in defense, intelligence, leadership, skill play... pretty much anything else, and the gap is pretty big.

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Old
12-11-2012, 03:35 PM
  #27
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More of a Verbeek maybe?
ya, for sure.

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Old
12-11-2012, 04:00 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Why don't you look at playoff plus minus and PIMs? Ciccarelli scored in the playoffs but was known as a liability defensively and took bad penalties.

I'll give you something though - the two of them are closer offensively than I thought.
Thats the reason I think Shanny is better than Ciccarelli. Tho I dont Shanny was that good defensively. He had loads of backup in that department since he played left wing.

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Originally Posted by seventieslord
Isní that kind of damning though? They were a contending team and just let a veteran like that go. If youíre a contender, you readily accept that youíre damning your future in order to be as competitive as possible for the immediate future. Thatís how it was back then, anyway.
No, not really. Loads of teams unloaded veterans for the same reason. Take a look at what Rangers and the Hawks did. Rangers traded one of their best PKers (Wayne Presley) to Toronto for Momesso. Hawks traded Poulin and Ulanov for Ciccone. Blues traded Daigneault for a pick. Toronto traded Baumgartner for a pick. The problem here is that they waited too long as they did with Joseph and Osgood (both put on waivers) and got nothing in return basically.

So when it comes to Red Wings unloading a veteran for nothing. It's not telling at all. They traded Vernon for nothing too. It worked out in hindsight tho.

Fun fact: The pick Red Wings got from Tampa was flipped for Macoun and Toronto selected Poni with it.

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12-11-2012, 04:02 PM
  #29
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There was a point in the early 2000's people forget about. Shanahan could be put on the 3rd/4th line with nobodies, which happened quite frequently, and still put up 30+ goals and 65+ points. I know who he played with in the late 90's, but they began spreading their scoring across lines and Shanahan often got placed on the 3rd line and 4th line. The one thing that stayed constant. He scored no matter who they decided to line him up with.

His numbers do not look as impressive due to era, but 30-40 goals and 65-80 points was nothing to sneeze at in the dead puck era. The guy was consistent as heck and very durable.
I know they are impressive specially on Detroit who didnt have many who put up these kinds of numbers anyway. I would be happy to see how Shanahan performed with these nobodies tho. Could be intresting stats to see.

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12-11-2012, 04:03 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Thats the reason I think Shanny is better than Ciccarelli. Tho I dont Shanny was that good defensively. He had loads of backup in that department since he played left wing.
Detroit played a Left Wing Lock system though, right? So the left wing had to be responsible defensively. I've also seen it posted that Shanny and the other LWs in Detroit had their stats hurt by the system, though I didn't watch enough of Detroit myself to really know if that is true.

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12-11-2012, 04:08 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Detroit played a Left Wing Lock system though, right? So the left wing had to be responsible defensively. I've also seen it posted that Shanny and the other LWs in Detroit had their stats hurt by the system, though I didn't watch enough of Detroit myself to really know if that is true.
The whole team were hurt in the system. The lock work in a way that the C and RW will try to force the opponent over to the left with and overman them while the LW is playing defense. LWs get alot of help from the defensemen and the center. I'd rather see how good he was defenively outside of Detroit. He still have an edge over Dino in that area most likely but I will like to see it. Need to see if I can find some old devils or blues games.

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12-11-2012, 04:14 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I'm honestly shocked Ciccarelli even has a vote, let alone four....

Shanahan was the better offensive, defensive and physical player. Ciccarelli's high PIMs might fool you into thinking they were similarly physical players, but Shanahan was a significantly better physical presence and fighter.



Are you sure about that? Ciccarelli averaged 0.84 PPG and Shanahan averaged 0.73. You don't think the different eras can account for all that? I assure you it does. Then throw in Shanny's higher GP (maintaining that average for longer), better individual play and all the cups he won, and it shouldn't be close.



Really bad example considering Shanahan scored 40 for Detroit at age 37 too.

And also, you have to admit that is pretty cherrypicked. He had a good season at 37, yes, but what about the couple of seasons before and after? From 35-39, Shanahan had 242 points in 304 games. Ciccarelli had 143 in 217. Shanahan was obviously a more productive player late in his career.
Of course it's cherry picked. But it's also contradictory to what was said about Shanahan being productive for longer so that's why I posted it. Shanahan popped 40 at age 37, Dino popped 35. Not much of a difference.

According to hockey-reference from age 35-39 the numbers look like this:

Dino: 279 games -176 points -95 goals = 28 goals 52 points per 82 games

Shanahan: 338 games -256 points -123 goals = 30 goals 62 points per 82 games

So Shanahan was a bit better there, but he also had a year rest in 04-05 while Dino played through his injuries which slowed him big time. Dino also played in Tampa and Florida most of those years while Shanahan played in Detroit and NY.

Those years could be cherry picked as well though. If we wanted to go back a few more years and say 32 to 39, the numbers are much closer. Judging players in their late 30s to rank them gets kind of skewed I would say. So really it all depends on where you want to cut it.

I'm not trying to argue that Dino was better, I'm just saying they're pretty close and I don't think that saying Shanahan was better for longer is as true a statement as was initially intended.

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12-11-2012, 04:35 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
The whole team were hurt in the system. The lock work in a way that the C and RW will try to force the opponent over to the left with and overman them while the LW is playing defense. LWs get alot of help from the defensemen and the center. I'd rather see how good he was defenively outside of Detroit. He still have an edge over Dino in that area most likely but I will like to see it. Need to see if I can find some old devils or blues games.
Yes that system was not conducive to offensive forwards putting up huge numbers. Especially when they were rolling 3-4 lines, leading to reduced icetime.

Regarding your question on how he performed with the lesser players on lower lines, as i recall, he was still good for his normal production regardless of linemates. He routinely played without the big guns on the team at even strength starting in the early 2000's, but was always good for 30+ goals and 65-75 points until 03-04

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12-11-2012, 04:39 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by tjcurrie View Post
According to hockey-reference from age 35-39 the numbers look like this:

Dino: 279 games -176 points -95 goals = 28 goals 52 points per 82 games

Shanahan: 338 games -256 points -123 goals = 30 goals 62 points per 82 games
I'm not seeing what you're seeing...

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Thatís 65 points per 82 games for Shanny and 54 for Ciccarelli.

That's not just a bit better. In addition to the better per-game stats, it was maintained over a much better sample of games, indicating better durability and consistency. Also, note that that includes an entire season lost due to the lockout for Shanahan and just 40% of a season for Ciccarelli.

Quote:
So Shanahan was a bit better there, but he also had a year rest in 04-05 while Dino played through his injuries which slowed him big time. Dino also played in Tampa and Florida most of those years while Shanahan played in Detroit and NY.
Those are completely subjective arguments that can easily be reversed. The year off could easily be called an opportunity for Shanahan to get rusty and speed his decline at that age. And scoring more on worse teams can easily be written off as being more important to a weaker team than he would be on a team like Detroit.

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Old
12-11-2012, 04:42 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
No, not really. Loads of teams unloaded veterans for the same reason. Take a look at what Rangers and the Hawks did. Rangers traded one of their best PKers (Wayne Presley) to Toronto for Momesso. Hawks traded Poulin and Ulanov for Ciccone. Blues traded Daigneault for a pick. Toronto traded Baumgartner for a pick. The problem here is that they waited too long as they did with Joseph and Osgood (both put on waivers) and got nothing in return basically.

So when it comes to Red Wings unloading a veteran for nothing. It's not telling at all. They traded Vernon for nothing too. It worked out in hindsight tho.

Fun fact: The pick Red Wings got from Tampa was flipped for Macoun and Toronto selected Poni with it.
I canít speak for all your examples without researching them, but for the Leafs and Rangers, the Kypreos/Presley/Momesso/Berg deal didnít have anything to do with the waiver draft considering it was midseason and was just four players of similar ages, talent levels and skill sets. It was nothing more than a veteran plugger shakeup (which the Leafs lost). Also, the Baumgartner pick was around the deadline so it was not similar either. Also, Baumgartner was never a player any team would lose any sleep over losing in the waiver draft.

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12-11-2012, 06:33 PM
  #36
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You have to give it to Shanahan here. For starters, while Dino has his HHOF supporters, there are many who don't agree with him being in there. Shanahan barely has anyone complain about him almost certain induction.

Secondly, you've got the longevity factor. Shanahan was good for a long time. He scored 40 goals and 80 points in 2006 when he was well over the hill. I do think his playoff portfolio gets overrated though. He was on a set of great teams who won multiple Cups. We also know that Shanahan was a big part of them but he also only has three years where he cracked double digit points in the postseason. He isn't by any means a "legendary" playoff performer. Just an average one for a player of his caliber.

Dino is a guy that people forget didn't actually win a Cup. That's hard to believe because few competed as hard as him. He is one of those guys that you can't penalize because he never won. He was a warrior, there is no doubt about it. His emotions were over the top at times and it hurt him but you never had to light a fire under him. It hurts that he left Detroit in 1996 and this was the time they started winning, not to mention it was the time when Shanahan arrived too.

I personally think that Shanahan could beat you in more ways than Dino on the ice. He was big, strong, had a laser of a shot and could chip in the rebound, tip, garbage goal, etc. as good as anyone. Maybe he just wasn't great on breakaways (1998 Olympics). But you wanted what he brought to the table more than Dino. He was a better leader, more of a controlled prescence on the ice. Dino was a loose cannon and was like that 100% of the time. You need that fire, but you also need to know how to tame it at times. I think this is one thing that made Shanny the more effective player.

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12-11-2012, 08:36 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by toob View Post
Shanahan. Dino may have been a better offensive player by a little at his very highest but Shanahan was more consistent for longer. And yeah he was gritty but Shanahan has him on that also.
In actual goal totals, Ciccarelli was more consistent. When considering the era they played their primes in, Shanahan definitely had the higher end goal scoring, and he certainly has the longevity edge. But you can't call him for consistency.

When using adjusted stats as done by www.hockey-reference.com, the two players come out on those categories as such:
Ciccarelli: 14, 11, 2, 0
Shanahan: 18, 13, 7, 0

And even when using adjusted stats, both players come out to almost identical GPG. Per-82 games, their adjusted stats would look like this:

Shanahan: 36-38-74
Ciccarelli: 35-35-70

That's a very close total given Shanahan's increbidle advantage in linemates (Oates, Janney, Yzerman, Fedorov, Larionov, Datsyuk).

Ciccarelli had better than "above average" linemates for four seasons. 1992-93 (Gallant and Yzerman), 1993-94, 1994-95 (Kozlov and Fedorov), and 1995-96 (just about every Wings scoring forward).

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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Putting everything together, I always thought Shanahan was just a better overall player. Bigger, smarter, more talented, and still almost as mean and tenacious as Dino. He's the kind of guy you want at the core of your roster, setting the tone for the rest of the team. Dino... well... I think he could have come out of things with a better reputation if a few isolated moments had gone differently. But he was never much more than a very good complementary piece.
Shanahan's defensive reputation is very overrated. "He played for Detroit all of those years and didn't fail miserably, so he must have been good defensively, right?" Ciccarelli played in the same system his last couple of years with Detroit and didn't look terrible defensively either.

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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
There were tension between Bowman and all his players and usually that was never a reason for them leaving unless it hurt the team. Red Wings were strong down the centern and rightwing so dealing Dino was their only choice if they wanted Shanahan. As they need a natural left winger.
Not sure where this comes in. The Ciccarelli trade had nothing, zero, to do with the Shanahan trade. Primeau (traded for Shanahan) had been playing the left side before Shanahan was acquired; it's not like Detroit didn't have any talent over there.

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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Looking at their best playoff runs head-to-head is not "cherrypicking".

PlayerSeasonGPGAPLeaguewide GPGOutcome
Ciccarelli198119147217.942Finals loss
Shanahan200223811194.767Cup win

They're not worlds apart or anything, but I'd say there's a clear difference in which one had a better "signature" playoff run.
I'd say they're equal. Shanahan tied for second on his team and line. Ciccarelli was third. Shanahan tied for third with three other players, only one of whom (Fedorov, who clearly outplayed him) played as many or more games. Ciccarelli tied for 6th.

Despite the shocking difference in league average, their ranks are actually virtually identical if you disregard ties. Shanahan would technically have been 2nd on team/line and 5th overall as he had more goals than Fedorov, but that's like comparing Jagr's #2 149 points to Yzerman's #3 155 points.

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The thing is, raw scoring is where these guys are ranked the closest. Throw in defense, intelligence, leadership, skill play... pretty much anything else, and the gap is pretty big.
Except for the fact that Dino averaged nearly .50 GPG on his career, a mark hit by 52 player ever to play (with no GP or era restrictions), and Dino is 56th ever. EVER. The three guys ahead of him who nudge him out at the thousandth mark? Mike Gartner, Jaromir Jagr, and Teemu Selanne.

Remember, these are guys who share that 0.49x (40-41 goals per 82 games) with Ciccarelli, as well as Lindros, Malkin, Howie Morenz, Charlie Conacher, Blaine Stoughton, and Pierre Larouche.

Former Detroit star winger Shanahan is at 0.43, behind other former Detroit star goal scorers such as Mickey Redmond (0.43, slightly better GPG beyond hundredths), John Ogrodnick (another 0.43, almost identical to Redmond's), Ray Sheppard (0.44), Jimmy Carson (0.44), Paul MacLean (0.45), Gordie Howe (0.45), Steve Yzerman (0.46), Luc Robitaille (0.47), and Ciccarelli (0.49), Marcel Dionne (0.54), Brett Hull (0.58). He's almost matched by former Wing Danny Gare (0.43).

When making this comparison, it's not nearly as hard to see Dino in the Hall as it might be when looking at him compared to other 80s and early 90s guys like Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, Messier, Kurri, Stastny, Bossy, Hull, Oates, LaFontaine, Makarov, Larionov, Robitaille, Gartner, Francis, Trottier, Federko, Neely, etc.

This is a lot closer than people are saying, and saying Dino over Shanny isn't an unreasonable position.

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12-11-2012, 08:46 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
The thing is, raw scoring is where these guys are ranked the closest. Throw in defense, intelligence, leadership, skill play... pretty much anything else, and the gap is pretty big.
No no, perhaps the only where Ciccarelli was better though. Lets not forget the PPG in regular and playoff play where Dinos is higher, in the latter mainly becouse of many goals. But Shanny was a little bit better a player.

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12-11-2012, 09:18 PM
  #39
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Shanahan. This is not very close.
Fully agree and actually wondering why it is even a question, unless one only looks at stats I guess.

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12-11-2012, 09:43 PM
  #40
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Shanny spent all his prime years playing along side one of the greatest centres of all time, dino didnt.

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12-11-2012, 10:33 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Those are completely subjective arguments that can easily be reversed. The year off could easily be called an opportunity for Shanahan to get rusty and speed his decline at that age. And scoring more on worse teams can easily be written off as being more important to a weaker team than he would be on a team like Detroit.
Shanahan definitely benefited a lot from playing with high end centers and/or centers he had strong chemistry with. Craig Janney is a great example. Janney was the primary return in the Adam Oates trade when Oates went to Boston. But Janney preferred Shanahan over Hull, so Shanahan's scoring numbers exploded, while Hull's dropped a considerable amount (Shanahan up by 20 and Hull down by 20, both to the 50s). There is not a major goal-scoring year on Shanahan's reume where he did not play alongside a skilled playmaker having a good or in some cases great year.

He was probably the better player. But he certainly was made to look better by playing with Oates, Janney, Cassels, Yzerman, Fedorov, Larionov, and Datsyuk.

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12-11-2012, 11:14 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Detroit played a Left Wing Lock system though, right? So the left wing had to be responsible defensively. I've also seen it posted that Shanny and the other LWs in Detroit had their stats hurt by the system, though I didn't watch enough of Detroit myself to really know if that is true.
Detroit played the LWL, but when Shanahan/Yzerman/whoever (McCarty/Lapointe/someone else) were out there, it was usually Yzerman doing the locking.

As for stats, I can't speak as to how badly stats were hurt; Slava Kozlov only exceeded his production as a Wing when he was playing center in Atlanta; such as 2002-03 between Kovalchuk/Heatley; or 2006-07, when he centered Kovalchuk/Hossa and Kovalchuk was #3 in scoring on the line. And even in Atlanta, Kozlov's production was only slightly higher than his Detroit numbers. Shanahan had two 80-point years and three 70-point years with Detroit. Looking at adjusted stats, most of his best seasons offensively were as a Wing. Two of Dino's top five were with Detroit, interestingly enough. Maybe this is more a matter of the fact that Shanahan played more time with 90s Detroit, and played his prime there? Shanahan and Dino, as cited, have similarities. It's not unreasonable to think that perhaps Detroit keeps Dino around if they think they can. And then Primeau holds out, and maybe he's dealt to a weak LA team that has a 1-2 punch of Dmitri Khristich and Ray Ferraro to get a not-yet-blossomed Rob Blake. Coffey is then spun off on his lonesome to acquire a winger to replace Primeau. Calgary was trying to win and rebuild at the same time, and needed a good defenseman (other than Chiasson) badly. Coffey for either a 28 year-old Fleury or a 19 year-old Iginla would have worked. Calgary would likely have accepted either deal.

What does this do for Shanahan? Leaves him stuck in Hartford. The Wings might have looked something like this if all of that went down and everything else that season happened as history said:

Sandstrom/Yzerman/Fleury
Kozlov/Fedorov/Ciccarelli
Brown/Larionov/McCarty
Maltby/Draper/Kocur

Lidstrom/Murphy
Fetisov/Konstantinov
Rouse/Blake

Osgood
Vernon

Would Ciccarelli have posted the same kind of seasons over the next couple years that Shanahan had if that were Detroit's roster? Would he have stayed in the league longer?

Would we be having this discussion, only to have it be tilted the other direction?

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12-11-2012, 11:23 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Shanahan's defensive reputation is very overrated. "He played for Detroit all of those years and didn't fail miserably, so he must have been good defensively, right?" Ciccarelli played in the same system his last couple of years with Detroit and didn't look terrible defensively either.
Ok, but both of these guys played a minority of their careers in Detroit. One would like to believe that other teams count too.


Quote:
Except for the fact that Dino averaged nearly .50 GPG on his career, a mark hit by 52 player ever to play (with no GP or era restrictions), and Dino is 56th ever. EVER.
Which is evidence of being a goals-only player during the highest scoring era in history. How does his PPG compare to Malkin's or Jagr's? How about adjusted?

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12-12-2012, 01:24 AM
  #44
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Ok there have been some good points about Dino such as him scoring that much being that old on Tampa in the late 90s and a lot of the stuff of Shanahan is being overstated:
-while he was one of the best if not the best Wings in 97 cup run he sucked in the playoffs just the next year after and on quite a few occasions beyond.
-and he definitely did float and at times badly and being a LW in a LWL system is misleading as he didnt play the main defensive role.
-Bowman treated Ciccarelli like **** in his time in Detroit but if youre going to use that as an argument by Shanny's own admission (What It Means To Be A Red Wing) Bowman didnt like him either.

But if you got Shanahan playing his best you get a comparable offensive player who is a better goal scorer, better defensively, and bigger physical presence. No doubt that if Ciccarelli had the physical gifts Shanny did he would play just as tough but he didnt. Im not going to say Shanahan by a lot but i think it is clearly Shanahan.

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12-12-2012, 02:43 AM
  #45
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Ok, but both of these guys played a minority of their careers in Detroit. One would like to believe that other teams count too.
Shanahan played nine seasons in Detroit, and it was almost the entirety of his prime. While Ciccarelli was primarily a 1980s North Star, I used the 1990s Wings to compare hypothetically because Ciccarelli left just a few months before Shanahan arrived.

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Which is evidence of being a goals-only player during the highest scoring era in history. How does his PPG compare to Malkin's or Jagr's? How about adjusted?
Ciccarelli's adjusted PPG is 0.85, Shanahan's is 0.90, Jagr and Malkin are both over 1.3 PPG. But I made no suggestion that he was a comparable point scorer; just goal scorer. Unless you didn't think Jagr and Malkin scored goals?

Also, if we look at post-30 performance combined, Shanahan and Ciccarelli are comparable in raw, totals, per-game, and ranking vs. peers.

The biggest problem with this thread is that people are coming into it with a preconceived notion that Shanahan was better because they remember late-90s versions of these guys, or maybe don't even remember Ciccarelli and only know the arguments about him and the HHOF.

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12-12-2012, 02:49 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Shanahan played nine seasons in Detroit, and it was almost the entirety of his prime. While Ciccarelli was primarily a 1980s North Star, I used the 1990s Wings to compare hypothetically because Ciccarelli left just a few months before Shanahan arrived.



Ciccarelli's adjusted PPG is 0.85, Shanahan's is 0.90, Jagr and Malkin are both over 1.3 PPG. But I made no suggestion that he was a comparable point scorer; just goal scorer. Unless you didn't think Jagr and Malkin scored goals?

Also, if we look at post-30 performance combined, Shanahan and Ciccarelli are comparable in raw, totals, per-game, and ranking vs. peers.

The biggest problem with this thread is that people are coming into it with a preconceived notion that Shanahan was better because they remember late-90s versions of these guys, or maybe don't even remember Ciccarelli and only know the arguments about him and the HHOF.
I'll be honest - Ciccarelli is closer to Shanahan offensively than I thought. But still, you are left with Shanny having a slight offensive advantage and huge advantages in everything else - leadership, toughness, discipline, defense. I guess Shanny wasn't anything all that amazing defensively, but it isn't hard to be better defensively than Dino.

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12-12-2012, 02:59 AM
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I'll be honest - Ciccarelli is closer to Shanahan offensively than I thought. But still, you are left with Shanny having a slight offensive advantage and huge advantages in everything else - leadership, toughness, discipline, defense. I guess Shanny wasn't anything all that amazing defensively, but it isn't hard to be better defensively than Dino.
I'd have to say it probably works out for Shanny, but I think Dino may actually have been the more offensively talented player. As I stated before, Shanahan had plenty of capable centermen, and often a skilled winger on the opposite side. Ciccarelli had that situation almost never.

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12-12-2012, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Shanahan played nine seasons in Detroit, and it was almost the entirety of his prime.
He hit his prime 4 or 5 years before Detroit.

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While Ciccarelli was primarily a 1980s North Star, I used the 1990s Wings to compare hypothetically because Ciccarelli left just a few months before Shanahan arrived.
And I do think that's a fair comparison. But in Dino's case you're talking about 4 years out of 18. How good was he defensively in Minnesota, Washington and Florida outside of that Bowman system? Not good.


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Ciccarelli's adjusted PPG is 0.85, Shanahan's is 0.90, Jagr and Malkin are both over 1.3 PPG. But I made no suggestion that he was a comparable point scorer; just goal scorer. Unless you didn't think Jagr and Malkin scored goals?
TBH I'm not understanding what you mean to say here. I'll reiterate -- Ciccarelli was a good but not great goal scorer. His raw GPG average is comparable to some all-time greats because he put up good (not great) goal totals during the highest-scoring decade-and-a-half in history. He does not belong anywhere near the Jagrs and Malkins, even if we ONLY consider his goal scoring, let alone his overall game. And in fairness, neither does Shanny. This is a case where their statistical closeness exposes a reason not to trust the stats.

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Also, if we look at post-30 performance combined, Shanahan and Ciccarelli are comparable in raw, totals, per-game, and ranking vs. peers.
Again, disregarding era between these players is nuts.

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The biggest problem with this thread is that people are coming into it with a preconceived notion that Shanahan was better because they remember late-90s versions of these guys, or maybe don't even remember Ciccarelli and only know the arguments about him and the HHOF.
I think it's kind of odd that you think the people on this board don't remember these guys beyond the late 90s.


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I'd have to say it probably works out for Shanny, but I think Dino may actually have been the more offensively talented player.
Pretty sure he wasn't.

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12-12-2012, 09:31 AM
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Okey, lets just everybody agree on that Shanahan was never a franchise player and that his omission from the HoF this year as a first-ballot choice was the right one. I have no problem calling him an overall better player than Dino Ciccarelli, just a little bit tired of how some people actually seems to believe that Shanahan was anything other than a goalscorer and physical presence on those Detroit teams. First-ballots are for franchise players, not roleplayers even if those roleplayers happened to be elite at what they were doing in such a role.

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12-12-2012, 10:35 AM
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Okey, lets just everybody agree on that Shanahan was never a franchise player
Agreed.


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and that his omission from the HoF this year as a first-ballot choice was the right one.
It was probably political, but not a total travesty or anything. I doubt we'll "all agree" on this topic though, considering the arguments we've already had over it.

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First-ballots are for franchise players
Maybe in baseball. In hockey, it's a straightforward question of who are the best 4 guys not in the Hall.

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not roleplayers even if those roleplayers happened to be elite at what they were doing in such a role.
Neither Shanny nor Dino was what I'd consider a roleplayer. But I guess that comes down to personal definitions and such.

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