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What is "generational"?

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Old
12-12-2012, 12:10 AM
  #51
bambamcam4ever
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
The same argument could be used against Crosby. He got hurt right after one of the best streaks of his career so he couldn't have bad games to bring his PPG down. Does it really matter if Forsberg or Lindros didn't play any games before or after those streaks? Those totals from Crosby are nice but it spans three different seasons. That's not nearly as impressive as doing it in 1 season which neither of the three have done.

I'm really not sure why you brought this up. Nothing in my posts even said that I thought Forsberg and Lindros were better than Crosby. No need to try and make this personal.
The poster whose list you quoted found the best single season streaks over 41 games over any duration of a season, not just the first 41+ games. Crosby's streak in that list would still read the same even if he had played the rest of the season and never scored another point, so no, he could not have brought the PPG average of his streak down. Finding the best streak at any point during a season is just as arbitrary as doing so over a calendar year. Also, I don't know where you came up with the three seasons for Crosby's streak.

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Old
12-12-2012, 12:18 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
The poster whose list you quoted found the best single season streaks over 41 games over any duration of a season, not just the first 41+ games. Crosby's streak in that list would still read the same even if he had played the rest of the season and never scored another point, so no, he could not have brought the PPG average of his streak down. Finding the best streak at any point during a season is just as arbitrary as doing so over a calendar year. Also, I don't know where you came up with the three seasons for Crosby's streak.
I know it is arbitrary. I only brought up the streaks because your post said Forsberg and Lindros never played at that level which they did. The three seasons comment stems from your last post. You started off by saying Crosbys last two seasons which I would think are the 2011-2012 season and the 2010-2011 season. Then you brought up 2009-2010. Perhaps it's just a misread on my part. Either way I don't want to argue semantics.

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Old
12-12-2012, 12:34 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Nobodies, the lot.
Sarcasm, I'll assume. At least, I should hope.

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When I talk about how good he is among left wingers, I don't think it matters how good the center competition is does it? Also... if your top four LW of all time are really Hull, Mahovlich, Robitaille, and Lindsay... god help you. I only include half of that group in my top five.
Luc Robitaille is one of the great left wingers of all time but he's definitely not one of the greatest players of all time. Not even close. Being a top leftwinger doesn't mean you'll be a top 20 player of all time. OV's number pail in comparison to the all-time greats and he's not getting any younger/better.

And God help YOU if you think you can name me a left winger better than Hull, Mahovlich, and Lindsay. They are top 25 players of all time. Who would be a better fit in the top five? Zetterberg?

Ovechkin better pick it up, if he wants a spot in the top three.

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I did qualify that part with a "return to form" did I not?
It would have to be a bit more than a return to form, if you expect anyone to mention him alongside "the best of the best of the best".

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Maybe you should.
Good one.


Last edited by nowhereman: 12-12-2012 at 12:44 AM.
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Old
12-12-2012, 12:39 AM
  #54
KEEROLE Vatanen
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generational is an overused term seemingly invented on this website, the term needs to be tossed out and never used again

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12-12-2012, 12:49 AM
  #55
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I think what this thread clearly shows is that the league has not had a generational talent in some time. I don't think you can even call Crosby generational, what has he done that say Hawerchuk or Sakic weren't able to do? And Ovechkin is obviously a no-go

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12-12-2012, 01:17 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
Yeah that's not a bad way of looking at it. In that case for the last 30 years it'd be something like:

Crosby
Lemieux
Gretzky

Lidstrom
Bourque
Potvin

Brodeur
Roy
Hasek

I don't know nearly enough about the old time hockey, but I think most would agree these guys are generational talents. It gets shady once you start picking more than 1 per generation and you'll see a lot of debate.

But I don't think many would challenge these.
I would challenge Crosby. Can't see him getting the "generational" status unless Jagr has one. By hype he is probably highest since Lemieux but skill/accomplishment wise he still drops too drastically below other great forwards.

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12-12-2012, 01:23 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
Howe is easily generational. You can make an argument that he's a top 2 player ever.

Also if you put Crosby as a generational talent then you have to include Ovechkin as well. It's either gotta be both of them or neither.
Not here.

This is a place where Ovechkin never was as good as Crosby, since he has been down for two seasons. Crosby has had one amazing half-season in that time (where he did score on a lower level than Ovechkin for 51 games) so he pulls up as a Generational talent.

Also, there is no canadian bias here.

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Old
12-12-2012, 01:25 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Not here.

This is a place where Ovechkin never was as good as Crosby, since he has been down for two seasons. Crosby has had one amazing half-season in that time (where he did score on a lower level than Ovechkin for 51 games) so he pulls up as a Generational talent.

Also, there is no canadian bias here.
I think that "half-season" extrapolated over a whole season is only "just" as impressive as either of those seasons Ovechkin put up 07-08 or 08-09

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12-12-2012, 01:56 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
I think that "half-season" extrapolated over a whole season is only "just" as impressive as either of those seasons Ovechkin put up 07-08 or 08-09
If he did actually keep his pace, 64 goals and 68 assists, in today's game and on a line with Pascal Dupuis and Chris Kunitz, would have been far more impressive than anything Ovechkin did at his peak.

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12-12-2012, 02:10 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by nowhereman View Post
If he did actually keep his pace, 64 goals and 68 assists, in today's game and on a line with Pascal Dupuis and Chris Kunitz, would have been far more impressive than anything Ovechkin did at his peak.
Well that is the thing. We will never know if he would have.

I find it hard to give credit to player for games he did not play. 85P/82G Ovechkin is better than 62P/41G Crosby.

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12-12-2012, 02:58 AM
  #61
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Would the sedins be considered generational?.

Two identical twins winning top end scoring awards, playing on the same team.

I don't think that will ever happen again in nhl history.

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Old
12-12-2012, 03:09 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
LOL. Just... wow. Why not include the Sedins? If we're going to be radically ignorant about reality, why not say Tanev is a generational defenseman!
What? I didn't have a single Canuck on my list.

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While not quite .950, that's effectively what Hasek was doing in the 90s. His numbers were o far beyond reach of the other goalies that it was mind boggling. It took better systems, better defensive players, better goaltender training, and better gear before anyone else could put up that kind of season.
Hasek's highest ever sv% was .937%. It's not unusual for a goalie to hit that every once in a while. No one ever hits 200 points. Ever. Sure, one could make an argument because of consistency, but if your best doesn't far exceed the best of almost everyone else, I wouldn't consider you truly generational. Just my opinion.

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12-12-2012, 04:37 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Lucbourdon View Post
I don't think that will ever happen again in nhl history.
Rare events do not count as generational, and besides we know who the true recipient of the awards would be had the real generational players not gotten injured in the seasons Sedins nabbed hardware.

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12-12-2012, 04:51 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nowhereman View Post
If he did actually keep his pace, 64 goals and 68 assists, in today's game and on a line with Pascal Dupuis and Chris Kunitz, would have been far more impressive than anything Ovechkin did at his peak.
Ovechkin had the 65 goal season. He was about as unstoppable as crosby in 10-11 around the end of the year. I think having maybe 5-6 seasons of that caliber could be a reasonable bench mark for a "generational player

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12-12-2012, 07:29 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
I would challenge Crosby. Can't see him getting the "generational" status unless Jagr has one. By hype he is probably highest since Lemieux but skill/accomplishment wise he still drops too drastically below other great forwards.
Fair enough.

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12-12-2012, 07:42 AM
  #66
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Howe, richard, gretzky, lemieux, orr, roy.

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12-12-2012, 07:50 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
I think what this thread clearly shows is that the league has not had a generational talent in some time. I don't think you can even call Crosby generational, what has he done that say Hawerchuk or Sakic weren't able to do? And Ovechkin is obviously a no-go
Ovechkin is a lock for this generation's player. So because he's had a couple off years he's a no go? Its harder to score in todays NHL than it was in the 90s and before. Ovechkin is it. He's the man. Crosby could be considered also but he'll have to keep putting the numbers up for that. He is to ovechkin as lemieux was to gretzky.

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12-12-2012, 08:08 AM
  #68
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I see generational talents as players that either greatly excel his own peers in great ways, OR players that help redefine their positions. I don't see it as this once every 20 years thing... So in that sense, my list is closest to that poster that had a long-ass list. But WITH jagr included...

I'd also include Doug Harvey to that list

Edit: come to think of it, why not bob gainey? ****ing guy had a trophy invented after his play style

I know my definition might be broad, but I don't see this list as having only 4, 5 names in it


Last edited by MasterDecoy: 12-12-2012 at 08:14 AM.
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Old
12-12-2012, 08:27 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Hitman47 View Post
Howe, richard, gretzky, lemieux, orr, roy.
My list exactly, although I also include Harvey.

Nobody playing right now is close to this list. 10 years from now maybe, but today, heck no.

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12-12-2012, 08:50 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Hitman47 View Post
Ovechkin is a lock for this generation's player. So because he's had a couple off years he's a no go? Its harder to score in todays NHL than it was in the 90s and before. Ovechkin is it. He's the man. Crosby could be considered also but he'll have to keep putting the numbers up for that. He is to ovechkin as lemieux was to gretzky.
both of them obviously have a ways to go before we know how they will go down in history. The difference for me is that Crosby seems more likely to continue the high level of play while Ovechkin has taken a step back. Obviously, Crosby's injuries could continue to haunt him and Ovechkin could make his big comeback.

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Old
12-12-2012, 08:51 AM
  #71
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Lindros. He was a generational talent cut short by the inability to keep his head up. People forget how dominant he was.

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12-12-2012, 08:56 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Leman Russ View Post
A player like this only comes once a generation.

Its pretty cut and dry.

Orr/Gretzky/Lemieux/Crosby/Schultz are some examples
that would make 5 generations ? (one every 11.4 year)

Did we had 5 generations in the past 57 years?

do you know any 57yo people who have grand-grand-grandchild?

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Old
12-12-2012, 08:57 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by MrFunnyWobbl View Post
One of these is not like the others.
yes Orr started playing before I was born

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12-12-2012, 08:58 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Generational players are a clear-cut notch above the rest of their generation... hence the name.
Didn't take long before a good answer popped up.

When discussing how good player A is, you have to compare player A to his peers. These debates get derailed when someone comes to the obvious conclusion that players today are generally better than the players of yesteryear. Here's my list of Generational talents:

Howe
Orr
Gretzky
Lemeiux

Crosby/Malkin/Ovechkin have shown they are the top 3 players of their generation, but they haven't shown me a level of sustained dominance (yet) that would suggest they are clearly a cut above the rest. I think 20 years from now, we'll be talking about Crosby/Malkin/Ovechkin like we talk about Jagr, Morenz, Beliveau, Bure (in the case of Ovechkin) etc.


Last edited by Crease: 12-12-2012 at 09:04 AM.
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Old
12-12-2012, 09:00 AM
  #75
palindrom
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Originally Posted by Hitman47 View Post
Howe, richard, gretzky, lemieux, orr, roy.
That would make 6 generations in 76 years!

Does one generation is 12.5 years? In average people have kids older than 12-13yo.

could we at least define how many years is a generation?

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