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Lockout Thread #4: Tentative agreement!

View Poll Results: Will there be a short nhl season this year
Yes 49 43.36%
No 64 56.64%
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Old
12-19-2012, 03:45 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by BlueChip01 View Post
I get being young, having money, and being goofy. Have some smarts though. Don't take that pic with the risk of it being posted at a time like this. Not good for PR.
could've been taken last year for all we know.

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12-19-2012, 04:05 PM
  #277
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could've been taken last year for all we know.
Even if so, in what way would it make the timing of the photo being put on Twitter any better?



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12-19-2012, 04:40 PM
  #278
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When the Owners set out their first proposal, of course you knew the Players reaction's would be pretty negative about money loss. Understandable, and the start of the negotiation process.

If money was still this large chasm and a huge gulf, then I can see this process of DOI and actually preparing for this fight that will most likely cancel the season.

But the money part has actually been negotiated. Make whole, HRR, both sides are now comfortable with the numbers.

So now you are going to this entire F%#* up process over contract length?? Length of CBA?? Is that what you are willing to loose the rest of this and possibly the next season over?

I still can't believe it. The money part is settled (if the players accepted the three Owner stipulations).

This to me is like the financial part of the Arena deal getting finalized between Katz and the City, and then falling apart over the name of the building.

To partially quote the movie The Rainmaker, "you (the players) are stupid, stupid, stupid"
I thought so too (that the money thing was close to agreed upon), but Daly on HockeyCentral today said there was still some significant issues such as:

PA wants a guaranteed cap that won't go down even if revenues go down, they want escrow caps, buyouts outside the system (not counted against money paid to players) and like 3 or 4 other things that Daly mentioned that I can't recall right now (there might be a podcast of his interview on sportsnet or something)

Anyway - I also thought they were pretty close on the money thing and the only issues left were contract term, variance and CBA term - but it makes more sense to me now why Bettman was so fired up a couple of weeks ago after Fehr said they were so close.

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12-19-2012, 05:07 PM
  #279
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You must have missed my post earlier... it's easily done. All that is required is to have the NHL owners receive shares in the amalgmated league. Say Toronto's owner receives 11% stake the league, the CBJ owner receives 3%, etc. All of this is based on their current "franchise value" today. Every owner shares in the growth of the league. If the relative contribution to league value changes, it is relatively easy to assign a given owner additional shares as a bonus so that his overall stake in the league increases.
I could be wrong (I'm no business expert), but I believe having that many owners with that many employees might trigger a Force Initial Public Offering (aka the company would have to go Public).
(Or some conditions similar.)

And this might create all kinds of other headaches.

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12-19-2012, 05:20 PM
  #280
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I could be wrong (I'm no business expert), but I believe having that many owners with that many employees might trigger a Force Initial Public Offering (aka the company would have to go Public).
(Or some conditions similar.)

And this might create all kinds of other headaches.
No - there would not be anything to force someone to go public. Much bigger companies (both in terms of revenue AND employees) are private companies.

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12-19-2012, 05:39 PM
  #281
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Bill Daly was on a radio show today
He was directly asked "Yes or no, do we have a season?",
Daly's answer was just as direct and clear he responded "Yes,"
Meanwhile don fehr spoke before a charity event in toronto, fehr said the owners haven't express a desire to resume talks he also said he would like the same group of players and owners who met a few weeks ago along with himself and bettman to be the one's involved in the next round of talks
Don Fehr on Bill Daly saying there will be a season: "That's good news. I'm glad to hear that. I certainly hope he's right."

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12-19-2012, 06:04 PM
  #282
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Daly was forced to answer yes. He was only given two choices (Yes or No) and there was no way he was going to answer No.

People reading anything into that interview are in for a letdown.

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12-19-2012, 06:10 PM
  #283
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Daly was forced to answer yes. He was only given two choices (Yes or No) and there was no way he was going to answer No.

People reading anything into that interview are in for a letdown.
Have you ever seen a politician dodge a question he could have said something like "i hope there is but i don't know", he could have easily just dodged the question. However i agree we should not read anything into this it is expected that the nhl (daly) would publicly say they believe there will be a season, nothing surprising about that.

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12-19-2012, 06:16 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by 402 View Post
Have you ever seen a politician dodge a question he could have said something like "i hope there is but i don't know", he could have easily just dodged the question. However i agree we should not read anything into this it is expected that the nhl (daly) would publicly say they believe there will be a season, nothing surprising about that.
It's a stupid question. Its like someone asking you "Will you die in 2014? Yes or no." The answer is meaningless.

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Old
12-19-2012, 10:34 PM
  #285
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It's written in the Old CBA under which the contracts were signed. I would be surprised if the a judge decided they were still legal. Players are setting themselves to be taken to the cleaners and Bettman is probably loving it. If the NHL centralizes and the union disbands then they can pretty much do whatever they want to the players and not have any issues with anti trust laws.
If you are referring to the voiding of contracts...it is specifically stated in the SPC that every player signed.
Yes it is specifically stated that without a CBA it has no value, and any successor CBA will change the terms of the SPC andvalue of the contract.

About 4 months ago i hinted at all of this being a possible end game but no one believed me. the conversation came from teams continuing to sign players and some fans thinking the players were right in their sense of entitlement to what they signed. My point was that not signing players would look like collusion... and that the SPC clearly states those contracts are of a certain share value for the PA revenue portion. That is all they are share size of the PA portion. They arent entitled to any specific cash value.
Remember when everyone was asking if Bettman and the league would throw out the Dipietro contract because it was the first that went beyond the CBA? Bettmans response was that it was a proper contract so it was allowed but would be held to the terms of any future successor CBA and that in signing the contract the player was agreeing to that in exchange for the security of a guarantee of employment in the NHL.

Its been known for a long time. I suspect the reason why Bob Mac and others havent talked about it much is becuase they dont need to and also i dont think the professionals want to kick Bettmans plan.

I have also been very clear since before the lockout that the league has looked into centralizing contracts. Supporting other leagues - transfer funds for NHL players, transfer deals... has greatly helped the NHLs position to centralize their contracts and run as one entity which happens to have different regional branches. Its a unique position to the NHL that they clearly have competition at home and abroad for player services and it would be the NHLs position that it is the BRANDING and ENTERTAINMENT packaging, combined with BUSINESS DECISIONS that seperates it from the competitors and not some idea of market control. The players have happily proven this. Coke doesnt have a monopoly and make more than most countries just because Pepsi sucks. Coke advertises and packages and has its own product which out earns others and can use its market influence to make relationships and ask those partners to not sell cmpeting products. completely legal. Try getting a Coke at KFC. The NHL is the best league but not because it is a monopoly...its because they are the COKE of their industry. Guilty of nothing. Companies are free to try to compete and do.

In the early spring of 2004- as word got out Bettman was going to formally file for legal right to allow replacement players- the League got an offer for the purchase of the league. Under the 300M dollar purchase the league would be re-organized to be centrally controlled and contracted. the franchises or branches would still be individually owned but the league headquarters would do all contracts and negotiations and determine who plays where. There would be an end to the draft (something that has always made it impossible to centralize the business) and RFA/UFA.
Bettman, as was his duty, informed the BOG and owners of the offer but advised them against it. Everything the league and frnachises had been short term and long term building towards would be erased or in jeopardy. Also Bettman had a very strong belief that fans, who already blamed him for missed goals, off sides, and hole in nets.. pretty much making him out to be in control of the games, would start calling games as fixed by him and head office officials. For the good of the game and the franchises the cost certainty of centralizing wasnot very attractive. Also the NHL did not have as many world wide competitors. Now the situations have changed.

Did the NHL want this? I said 4 months ago that this is something Bettman and the NHL never wanted but if it comes to it they will get cost certainty in a big way. the nhl will control all contracts because it will legally be the business with franchises as only branches of the main NHL arm. Franchise values qwill skyrocket.
The NHL will make unilateral business decisions regarding labor costs, allignment, expansion, exhibition, relocation and a host of other topics. No union to have to deal with.
But the NHL as we know it would no longer exist.

IVE TALKED ABOUT THIS SINCE AUGUST. The league is definitely not surprised or worried. They gave their best offer as well. Dont expect the NHL to feel pushed in a corner...they have been prepared all along (not all summer ...ALL ALONG...the SPC made in 05 shows how prepared they are)


Last edited by oilinblood: 12-19-2012 at 11:01 PM.
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Old
12-19-2012, 11:06 PM
  #286
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Now THAT is quite the look down the rabbit hole.

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Old
12-19-2012, 11:22 PM
  #287
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Hah, Ken Reid was on a roll on Sportsnet Connected tonight. The fans are just as disgusted, Ken.

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12-19-2012, 11:29 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
Now THAT is quite the look down the rabbit hole.
the part that makes my eyes roll so much is that ... not that i predicted this and people didnt listen...BUT BETTMAN HAS SAID ALL OF IT IN PLAIN ENGLISH as well.

I first talked about in August but it has been well known Goodenow had been talking to Fehr in 2004 and in 1994. It has also been well known that DOI AND DECERT were brought up as threats at that time.

Now...i will point everyone to the press conference --that everyone should have watched before coming into a lock out forum- from sept 15. Direct the timer to a snarky reporters question of why the owners wont pay full contract value on contracts they just signed. Bettmans answer is there is no value because the SPC clearly states that it does not exist without a CBA and that the CBA then sets the parameters of the value of the SPC. Without a CBA there is no SPC and it is put right into the contract itself. Once a CBA expires the agreed terms and all other agreements in labor expire until a successor agreement takes over and sets the new terms.

A recent article on TSN said it might be hard for a judge to void contracts just because there is no CBA unless it is clearly written that that is what happens. Whoever wrote that should not be called a legal analyst because they have no idea what they are talking about. My point is that most courts in cases of Unions being de-certified or DOI, have voided contracts. This is due to the fact that to actually dissolve your union should be a serious matter and thus all agreements, including employee contracts, should be seen as infected by the negligence and thus dissolved. Most courts in other labor industries dissolve current contracts once a union has been decertified/DOI. In the NHLs case it actually DOES specifically state that this happens. In the absence of a signed agreement between the NHLPA and the NHL those contracts do not exist.
If the NHLPA formally declares on Decert or DOI, the PA will no longer exist...and immediately the contracts will be dissolved permanently. Even if the union re-formed (i believe once formally approved its a 1 year wait) the past contracts are dead.

The bigger question is really if the PA would ever be allowed to decert or dissolve without Bettman and the league not putting up a fight. the answer is that the league wont fight it and ... i dont think any judge would be fooled by the PA and let them do it. Nevermind that the judge is a big yankees fan... one of the teams that were hurt the most by Fehrs strike... but he wasnt born yesterday. The NHL wins this battle hands down---but that is if they want to fight it. In my opinion the union getting rubber stamped approval on decert doi is not what the league is trying to stand up to. They want the court to simply recognize its a sham...not stop it. It will be no contest to void all contracts if courts see it is in writing, that it was all a bad faith tactic, and that the league had kept good faith activities to the end. Again...NOTHING the league has filed says it wants to stand in the way of decert/doi. The league is trying to get the courts to see it as a sham and that the NHL is acting in good faith even with these threats. It wants official statements on the matter to set up what will follow. The NHL WILL win.

with no union the league can accomplish alot in very little time and re-organize as the Coca Cola of hockey. They already have a court ruling that the NHL is the business and not the franchises (PHOENIX bankruptcy case)...so their path to central control only has the union in the way.If the union is gone...lol.

The only question i really have is what the league does come february if the PA hasnt killed itself. i think i know what will happen if the Pa formally applies (but i dont think they will as they can read clearly those contracts wont exist), -the nhl wont argue and will allow it and then look to the courts to see the sham and read the clear clause in the spc and void all obligations- then the NHL i predict will expand, centralize and re-brand in the matter of 48 hours with a couple re-locations finalized on paper to happen in the next 2 years, removal of name badges from jerseys, and alot more. I just dont see the union thinking it can win anything by formally moving forward with any of this posturing. Which is unfortunate because i dont know how the league moves forward otherwise. i dont see the league putting a good offer on the table again. i dont see any end to this other than selling the league like in the 05 offer or replacement players in 2013.
This is worse than 2005. GB was clear that he didnt like Goodenow. He might not have said it but you can tell from the interviews. Goodenow was Fehrs protege. Its worse now. PAul Kelly should have never been fired but players are a bunch of ********** lemmings
Anti-trust suits wont happen. No judge would allow them in their court once a judge states their final opinion and official statement that it was/is a sham to get anti-trust lawsuits. Basically saying it is a con. If the union proceeds its because they want to see what the free market will bring --no cap. But then the league centralizes since it has no contracts and no union and guess what? They have an internal league budget LOL.
LOL.
You do all this fighting to avoid a cap. all this fighting to get contract rights. dissolve the union ... to get none of what you fought over and less money. bravo


Last edited by oilinblood: 12-20-2012 at 12:05 AM.
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Old
12-19-2012, 11:46 PM
  #289
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Through out all of our boards lockout threads I've always found your posts to be quite interesting.

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12-20-2012, 12:14 AM
  #290
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Through out all of our boards lockout threads I've always found your posts to be quite interesting.
thank you. I realize my segments are long winded and i always expand too much on stuff but i think my educated guesses on how events will transpire have been pretty spot on.
It will be quiet on the league front until the window passes. this threat is not going to be met with friendly negotiating by the league. they are waiting to see what happens. half of me thinks the players might actually push for it all -despite knowing they likely lose all their battles but will achieve a free market with no cap. Then the league centralizes because it has no obligations or union keeping it from doing so. The league basically gets a clean break. the other half thinks they cant be that dumb...then i recall their interviews and how a vast majority have a grade 10 level intelligence if not lower.

alot of companies operate on a 30-40% labor costs to revenue percentage but really it will be what the market dictates... and the players have proven there is a market

Also if i may correct a constantly re-occuring inaccuracy by posters. The two sides arent close and one of the many problems is contract length. i assume its because some posters are watching the tabloid channel sportsnet for their info but the NHLPA did not offer 8 year contract max...it offered 8 years with a re-negotiating window to extend contracts in mid contract. the contract could never be more than 8 years long but could end up being 14. Thats a pretty big gap in proposals on just the one, of many, subjects that people seem to think is so close to agreement.

As i stated before... Fehr got everyone emotional to put the league against a wall. He countered on a proposal which was supposed to be answered as yes or no. Knowing the league wouldnt like it he told the press everything was agreed on and only small issues to finalize. That is why Bettman and Daly were both so furious. they arent anywhere close. they union knew the league wouldnt accept the offer but fehr put them in a position again of being the bad guys and again of bursting an emotional bubble of positive energy. Fehr has done this alot since July. People should read about what he does at the negotiating table. You have enough information to go by with just recent history of him blowing smoke about PA proposals etc (this is a great offer and really close to what the NHL wants ---guaranteed raises over last years players share for 3 years then a jump back to 57%) . The well known negotiating habits of excusing himself for bathroom breaks constantly, re-fills, phone calls, pretends to be uninterested or even asleep. the guy is Mr Passive aggressive. It irks me whenever people ask why the meetings between Bettman and Fehr are so short. everything i have read on decades of Fehr reminds me of the worst students in my classes when i was growing up. This is the guy who ruined baseball and is now ruining hockey. this is the guy who was chosen by the players, the same players who had fired under false pretenses Paul Kelly.
This whole thing is playing off as a joke and its my opinion, and clearly some of you feel differently which is your right, that Bettman has held it together well and continued to show a good-faith focus to bargaining and respecting the union. It will be extremely valuable in court.


Last edited by oilinblood: 12-20-2012 at 01:05 AM.
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12-20-2012, 09:12 AM
  #291
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Thoughts on revenue sharing?

I suppose if the NHL centralizes the league would have full control over "equalization payments"?

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12-20-2012, 09:17 AM
  #292
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Thoughts on revenue sharing?

I suppose if the NHL centralizes the league would have full control over "equalization payments"?
That is never going to happen.

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12-20-2012, 10:22 AM
  #293
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Here's a interesting quote:

''The league also claims player contracts will be voided should they go ahead with threats to disband their union because,in the NHL's view,all existing agreements would cease to exist''


With the voting most likely coming back with the majority of players saying yes,have we potentially watched Shawn Horcoff's last game as a Edmonton Oiler?

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12-20-2012, 10:27 AM
  #294
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Originally Posted by oilinblood View Post
the part that makes my eyes roll so much is that ... not that i predicted this and people didnt listen...BUT BETTMAN HAS SAID ALL OF IT IN PLAIN ENGLISH as well.

I first talked about in August but it has been well known Goodenow had been talking to Fehr in 2004 and in 1994. It has also been well known that DOI AND DECERT were brought up as threats at that time.

Now...i will point everyone to the press conference --that everyone should have watched before coming into a lock out forum- from sept 15. Direct the timer to a snarky reporters question of why the owners wont pay full contract value on contracts they just signed. Bettmans answer is there is no value because the SPC clearly states that it does not exist without a CBA and that the CBA then sets the parameters of the value of the SPC. Without a CBA there is no SPC and it is put right into the contract itself. Once a CBA expires the agreed terms and all other agreements in labor expire until a successor agreement takes over and sets the new terms.

A recent article on TSN said it might be hard for a judge to void contracts just because there is no CBA unless it is clearly written that that is what happens. Whoever wrote that should not be called a legal analyst because they have no idea what they are talking about. My point is that most courts in cases of Unions being de-certified or DOI, have voided contracts. This is due to the fact that to actually dissolve your union should be a serious matter and thus all agreements, including employee contracts, should be seen as infected by the negligence and thus dissolved. Most courts in other labor industries dissolve current contracts once a union has been decertified/DOI. In the NHLs case it actually DOES specifically state that this happens. In the absence of a signed agreement between the NHLPA and the NHL those contracts do not exist.
If the NHLPA formally declares on Decert or DOI, the PA will no longer exist...and immediately the contracts will be dissolved permanently. Even if the union re-formed (i believe once formally approved its a 1 year wait) the past contracts are dead.

The bigger question is really if the PA would ever be allowed to decert or dissolve without Bettman and the league not putting up a fight. the answer is that the league wont fight it and ... i dont think any judge would be fooled by the PA and let them do it. Nevermind that the judge is a big yankees fan... one of the teams that were hurt the most by Fehrs strike... but he wasnt born yesterday. The NHL wins this battle hands down---but that is if they want to fight it. In my opinion the union getting rubber stamped approval on decert doi is not what the league is trying to stand up to. They want the court to simply recognize its a sham...not stop it. It will be no contest to void all contracts if courts see it is in writing, that it was all a bad faith tactic, and that the league had kept good faith activities to the end. Again...NOTHING the league has filed says it wants to stand in the way of decert/doi. The league is trying to get the courts to see it as a sham and that the NHL is acting in good faith even with these threats. It wants official statements on the matter to set up what will follow. The NHL WILL win.

with no union the league can accomplish alot in very little time and re-organize as the Coca Cola of hockey. They already have a court ruling that the NHL is the business and not the franchises (PHOENIX bankruptcy case)...so their path to central control only has the union in the way.If the union is gone...lol.

The only question i really have is what the league does come february if the PA hasnt killed itself. i think i know what will happen if the Pa formally applies (but i dont think they will as they can read clearly those contracts wont exist), -the nhl wont argue and will allow it and then look to the courts to see the sham and read the clear clause in the spc and void all obligations- then the NHL i predict will expand, centralize and re-brand in the matter of 48 hours with a couple re-locations finalized on paper to happen in the next 2 years, removal of name badges from jerseys, and alot more. I just dont see the union thinking it can win anything by formally moving forward with any of this posturing. Which is unfortunate because i dont know how the league moves forward otherwise. i dont see the league putting a good offer on the table again. i dont see any end to this other than selling the league like in the 05 offer or replacement players in 2013.
This is worse than 2005. GB was clear that he didnt like Goodenow. He might not have said it but you can tell from the interviews. Goodenow was Fehrs protege. Its worse now. PAul Kelly should have never been fired but players are a bunch of ********** lemmings
Anti-trust suits wont happen. No judge would allow them in their court once a judge states their final opinion and official statement that it was/is a sham to get anti-trust lawsuits. Basically saying it is a con. If the union proceeds its because they want to see what the free market will bring --no cap. But then the league centralizes since it has no contracts and no union and guess what? They have an internal league budget LOL.
LOL.
You do all this fighting to avoid a cap. all this fighting to get contract rights. dissolve the union ... to get none of what you fought over and less money. bravo
If any team and fans should be thanking Fehr its the damm Yankees. They benefited the most from a Post Fehr MLB. They have bought more championships in Baseball then any other team.

If the Judge happens to be a Rangers fan he will be approving the player decertification as fast as he can. Then you can say goodbye to RNH,Ebs,Hall and Schultz

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12-20-2012, 10:51 AM
  #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilersfan11 View Post
Here's a interesting quote:

''The league also claims player contracts will be voided should they go ahead with threats to disband their union because,in the NHL's view,all existing agreements would cease to exist''


With the voting most likely coming back with the majority of players saying yes,have we potentially watched Shawn Horcoff's last game as a Edmonton Oiler?
Yes.
And Hall's, Nuge's, Eberle's, etc...
Unless Katz is willing to pony up some serious cash.

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12-20-2012, 11:36 AM
  #296
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That is never going to happen.
I wouldn't be so sure about that, especially when you consider the most profitable league in NA is centrally run.

Edit: Heres a good link for anyone who doesn't know how the NFL is run. Very short informative article http://www.thecasualtruth.com/story/...business-model


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12-20-2012, 11:45 AM
  #297
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If any team and fans should be thanking Fehr its the damm Yankees. They benefited the most from a Post Fehr MLB. They have bought more championships in Baseball then any other team.

If the Judge happens to be a Rangers fan he will be approving the player decertification as fast as he can. Then you can say goodbye to RNH,Ebs,Hall and Schultz
Not necessarily, it would really depend on what the league did afterwards. With no union stopping the league they could change substantially overnight.

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12-20-2012, 12:09 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
Not necessarily, it would really depend on what the league did afterwards. With no union stopping the league they could change substantially overnight.
I know alot of people think that the league would suddenly stop paying big money to players but the truth is it doesn't happen that way. It didn't happen in MLB it doesn't happen in Soccer in Europe.

In a few years you have a system of have nots and haves. You would have Toronto and the Rangers with 200 million dollar payrolls and Nashville and Florida with 20 million dollar payrolls and everyone else in between.

You need a fair CBA agreement where every team has a chance to compete. Not a open system where you have to trust someone not to spend to win

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12-20-2012, 12:25 PM
  #299
Bryanbryoil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
I know alot of people think that the league would suddenly stop paying big money to players but the truth is it doesn't happen that way. It didn't happen in MLB it doesn't happen in Soccer in Europe.

In a few years you have a system of have nots and haves. You would have Toronto and the Rangers with 200 million dollar payrolls and Nashville and Florida with 20 million dollar payrolls and everyone else in between.

You need a fair CBA agreement where every team has a chance to compete. Not a open system where you have to trust someone not to spend to win
That would suck for Oilers and Jets fans and return us to early 00's again. If that is how the league wants to be then they can do it without my support.

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12-20-2012, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
I know alot of people think that the league would suddenly stop paying big money to players but the truth is it doesn't happen that way. It didn't happen in MLB it doesn't happen in Soccer in Europe.

In a few years you have a system of have nots and haves. You would have Toronto and the Rangers with 200 million dollar payrolls and Nashville and Florida with 20 million dollar payrolls and everyone else in between.

You need a fair CBA agreement where every team has a chance to compete. Not a open system where you have to trust someone not to spend to win
So we want a system that supports franchsies that are A) mis-managed or B) in a weak market.

I'm not arguing either way just not sure if we can look at the NHL model and say its vastly superior to the MLB model or even the EPL model

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