It seems the NHLPA was a bit confused and dropped the ball. They did not need to hold any kind of vote at all to go down this road, Fehr could have simply notified the labour board the union no longer represented the players, DOI is so much easier than decertification. By announcing the vote they allowed the NHL to preempt and file in New York which is management friendly. Nhl has also the fact that they are headquartered in NYC so that lends a lot of credibility to filing there, the PA would have liked to file in a union friendly circuit like Michigan or California but hard to argue it should be heard there when the headquarters are in NYC. All the comments the players made like Fehr said we can get a better deal if we hold out and the threats to DOI or decertify will now come back to bite them. Only makes the NHL's job easier to show they did not negotiate in good faith from the start. Finally, the dumb comments by the guy who represented the NBAPA saying Bettman will lose is a moron. The palyers showed themselves that there are other options to the NHL when they went to Europe to play or threatened to do so, their antitrust compliant has no legs. Fehr does not understand that relative to the NFL/NBA, the NHl has competition. Thanks Ovie, you dumb ******!
BTW, directly from the TSN website, no vote was necessary to DOI:
Disclaimer of Interest
While decertification is the players walking away from the Union, a disclaimer of interest is the Union walking away from the players. So a disclaimer of interest occurs when the Union terminates its right to represent the players. It's also a less formal process than decertification. It can be as quick as Donald Fehr sending a letter to the Commissioner's office declaring the NHLPA no longer represents the players as a bargaining agent. There's no vote, no petition and no decertification election.
Pretty dumb to telegraph your intentions with something unnecessary and get trumped by the NHL legal team. ****ing amateurs the PA leadership is.....
Yes, why not accept that teams can just bleed money. Then the owners can hold the cities they are in over a barrel and force cities to use tax money to keep them there.
SO we get to the point that millions are paid to hockey players by little old ladies, with the threat that if they dont pay, they get evicted from their homes.
Thats such a fair and reasonable situation.
You forgot about the massive increase in **** that is going to happen in the down town area if a arena is built. Don't forget that hockey=violence=****.
Just to clarify **** is NOT funny. Just funny how anything is used to poopoo the arena topic by some.
It seems the NHLPA was a bit confused and dropped the ball. They did not need to hold any kind of vote at all to go down this road, Fehr could have simply notified the labour board the union no longer represented the players, DOI is so much easier than decertification. By announcing the vote they allowed the NHL to preempt and file in New York which is management friendly. Nhl has also the fact that they are headquartered in NYC so that lends a lot of credibility to filing there, the PA would have liked to file in a union friendly circuit like Michigan or California but hard to argue it should be heard there when the headquarters are in NYC. All the comments the players made like Fehr said we can get a better deal if we hold out and the threats to DOI or decertify will now come back to bite them. Only makes the NHL's job easier to show they did not negotiate in good faith from the start. Finally, the dumb comments by the guy who represented the NBAPA saying Bettman will lose is a moron. The palyers showed themselves that there are other options to the NHL when they went to Europe to play or threatened to do so, their antitrust compliant has no legs. Fehr does not understand that relative to the NFL/NBA, the NHl has competition. Thanks Ovie, you dumb ******!
BTW, directly from the TSN website, no vote was necessary to DOI:
Disclaimer of Interest
While decertification is the players walking away from the Union, a disclaimer of interest is the Union walking away from the players. So a disclaimer of interest occurs when the Union terminates its right to represent the players. It's also a less formal process than decertification. It can be as quick as Donald Fehr sending a letter to the Commissioner's office declaring the NHLPA no longer represents the players as a bargaining agent. There's no vote, no petition and no decertification election.
Pretty dumb to telegraph your intentions with something unnecessary and get trumped by the NHL legal team. ****ing amateurs the PA leadership is.....
Thanks for saving me the effort of typing all of that. Good post.
It seems the NHLPA was a bit confused and dropped the ball. They did not need to hold any kind of vote at all to go down this road, Fehr could have simply notified the labour board the union no longer represented the players, DOI is so much easier than decertification. By announcing the vote they allowed the NHL to preempt and file in New York which is management friendly. Nhl has also the fact that they are headquartered in NYC so that lends a lot of credibility to filing there, the PA would have liked to file in a union friendly circuit like Michigan or California but hard to argue it should be heard there when the headquarters are in NYC. All the comments the players made like Fehr said we can get a better deal if we hold out and the threats to DOI or decertify will now come back to bite them. Only makes the NHL's job easier to show they did not negotiate in good faith from the start. Finally, the dumb comments by the guy who represented the NBAPA saying Bettman will lose is a moron. The palyers showed themselves that there are other options to the NHL when they went to Europe to play or threatened to do so, their antitrust compliant has no legs. Fehr does not understand that relative to the NFL/NBA, the NHl has competition. Thanks Ovie, you dumb ******!
BTW, directly from the TSN website, no vote was necessary to DOI:
Disclaimer of Interest
While decertification is the players walking away from the Union, a disclaimer of interest is the Union walking away from the players. So a disclaimer of interest occurs when the Union terminates its right to represent the players. It's also a less formal process than decertification. It can be as quick as Donald Fehr sending a letter to the Commissioner's office declaring the NHLPA no longer represents the players as a bargaining agent. There's no vote, no petition and no decertification election.
Pretty dumb to telegraph your intentions with something unnecessary and get trumped by the NHL legal team. ****ing amateurs the PA leadership is.....
The fact the Exec Com voted is a big plus to the league... it proves its a tactic of bad faith since no vote was necessary to get things in motion and also it proves its being done by the players and not the leadership. The whole point of DOI is not a player vote... its supposed to be motioned by the leader of the union. Everything points to proof of bad faith negotiating and tactics. NHL wins this one without an effort. Comibine all this with the constant "we are behind our leader" blah blah blah "united we stand" and the players and the union has bad faith tactics written over everything they will attempt to do.
From what i have heard, bettman has been paperwork prepared for anything and everything. I think you will see a flurry of changes as soon as the PA disbands.
im sure a couple of Fehrs other comments will come up in court...like the owners are responsible to make more revenues to cover players raises (ahhh communism quotes used in a capitalist court), and players can always play elsewhere and outlast the owners (proof there is no moniopoly and the NHL should be able to centrally contract).
I am excited and smiling about hokey for the first time in a good long time. I am excited to see what the NHL unilaterally does in the first hours after the PA disbands. Re-brand to NAHL like has been rumored? new conference allignments? push for legal right of re-organization? announce seattle, QC, markham expansion (bam!!! lockout losses recovered)?
this might just be glorious. This cant be compared to the NBA and NFL...those guys had no serious leagues to run off too and their leaders werent morons. ALSO Fehr just happens to have a track record of bad faith negotiating that any american judge who follows baseball will definitely know.
HAHAHAHA PA you so dumb.
Sure, it might suck ecause player contracts could likely dissolve since that is what their contracts say happens should their be no cba (needs collective bargaining which needs a PA and specifically in those contracts it says it has to be the NHLPA. not sure they can have an NHLPA if there is no NHL anymore. nope). I am hopeful a re-branded and centrally controlled league can still do a draft process... but i doubt it. Then again the draft never made sense to begin with...and yes we would lose ll our talent. But thats why the NHL always bargained in good faith. Yes they can change their business and increase their profits ten-fold by centrally controlling contracts but they would prefer to keep going the old faithful route. Bettman can sit there in court and honestly say the NHL worked in good faith and is only reacting to the bad faith tactics by the union and countering to save the capitalist business in a capitalist country ruled by judges whose stocks and bonds and share fortunes have the values thanks to other good capitalist businesses.
very VERY excited.
bye pension, bye benefits, likely bye guaranteed contracts, bye to the contracts that were signed under a Union that you voted against (in all other situations i know of -none sports related- when a DOI was passed contracts were automatically dissolved and renegotiated)
Last edited by oilinblood: 12-14-2012 at 09:11 PM.
I don't care a lot anymore now that we appear to be at the litigation and legal labyrinth stage... I'm just sad that the Oilers FINALLY had some hope and prospects in the system to get them on the road towards the playoffs again... and now all that goes right down the ****hole as everything will likely be torn apart.
Yes, why not accept that teams can just bleed money. Then the owners can hold the cities they are in over a barrel and force cities to use tax money to keep them there.
SO we get to the point that millions are paid to hockey players by little old ladies, with the threat that if they dont pay, they get evicted from their homes.
Thats such a fair and reasonable situation.
I'm not entirely sure what you are getting at. Maybe sarcasm doesn't come across well on message boards.
If its about my comment that hockey teams are a quasi public good, that is not an endorsement for or against public money for stadiums. I was merely pointing out that SOME of the benefits of owning a hockey team are very difficult to internalize because certain aspects are public goods (non-excludable and non-rivalrous). By definition, a public good does not have to be provided by the government.
What I was trying to get at is that there probably exists a lot of revenue that owners get from their efforts to build business around hockey franchises to internalize some of the externalities. Revenue that is obviously not shared with players. I'm calling into question the notion that two thirds of NHL owners aren't making money off their teams. Owners get 43% of HRR right now, but it is not inconceivable that owners are in reality getting a higher portion than that if we broaden the definition of HRR. Obviously the opposite could be said as well.
I don't care a lot anymore now that we appear to be at the litigation and legal labyrinth stage... I'm just sad that the Oilers FINALLY had some hope and prospects in the system to get them on the road towards the playoffs again... and now all that goes right down the ****hole as everything will likely be torn apart.
it is far from the stage where we lose all our young players... many, many more months before that would happen
however, if that was to happen, i'd be done with the NHL completely, no doubt about it
It seems the NHLPA was a bit confused and dropped the ball. They did not need to hold any kind of vote at all to go down this road, Fehr could have simply notified the labour board the union no longer represented the players, DOI is so much easier than decertification. By announcing the vote they allowed the NHL to preempt and file in New York which is management friendly. Nhl has also the fact that they are headquartered in NYC so that lends a lot of credibility to filing there, the PA would have liked to file in a union friendly circuit like Michigan or California but hard to argue it should be heard there when the headquarters are in NYC. All the comments the players made like Fehr said we can get a better deal if we hold out and the threats to DOI or decertify will now come back to bite them. Only makes the NHL's job easier to show they did not negotiate in good faith from the start. Finally, the dumb comments by the guy who represented the NBAPA saying Bettman will lose is a moron. The palyers showed themselves that there are other options to the NHL when they went to Europe to play or threatened to do so, their antitrust compliant has no legs. Fehr does not understand that relative to the NFL/NBA, the NHl has competition. Thanks Ovie, you dumb ******!
..
3 weeks ago, a reporter asked Daly about decertification and he made it clear that the NHL is not concerned about antitrust lawsuits. He said something like - Antitrust laws are very specific and can only be applied when there are clear violations, something the NHL can avoid.
The same law firm that worked for the NFL and NBA is working with the NHL. They would have had a lot of time to create a decertification strategy. Bettman and the NHL lawyers are not dumb. The owners are not dumb.
3 weeks ago, a reporter asked Daly about decertification and he made it clear that the NHL is not concerned about antitrust lawsuits. He said something like - Antitrust laws are very specific and can only be applied when there are clear violations, something the NHL can avoid.
The same law firm that worked for the NFL and NBA is working with the NHL. They would have had a lot of time to create a decertification strategy. Bettman and the NHL lawyers are not dumb. The owners are not dumb.
Sorry, maybe I am missing something. My point is that the NHL and Bettman are not dumb. They actually have played this perfectly.
So, where do Hall, Eberle, RNH, Yak and Schultz end up? Should be interesting. It'll be neat to see them come into town a couple of times a year, amirite?
It seems the NHLPA was a bit confused and dropped the ball. They did not need to hold any kind of vote at all to go down this road, Fehr could have simply notified the labour board the union no longer represented the players, DOI is so much easier than decertification. By announcing the vote they allowed the NHL to preempt and file in New York which is management friendly. Nhl has also the fact that they are headquartered in NYC so that lends a lot of credibility to filing there, the PA would have liked to file in a union friendly circuit like Michigan or California but hard to argue it should be heard there when the headquarters are in NYC. All the comments the players made like Fehr said we can get a better deal if we hold out and the threats to DOI or decertify will now come back to bite them. Only makes the NHL's job easier to show they did not negotiate in good faith from the start. Finally, the dumb comments by the guy who represented the NBAPA saying Bettman will lose is a moron. The palyers showed themselves that there are other options to the NHL when they went to Europe to play or threatened to do so, their antitrust compliant has no legs. Fehr does not understand that relative to the NFL/NBA, the NHl has competition. Thanks Ovie, you dumb ******!
BTW, directly from the TSN website, no vote was necessary to DOI:
Disclaimer of Interest
While decertification is the players walking away from the Union, a disclaimer of interest is the Union walking away from the players. So a disclaimer of interest occurs when the Union terminates its right to represent the players. It's also a less formal process than decertification. It can be as quick as Donald Fehr sending a letter to the Commissioner's office declaring the NHLPA no longer represents the players as a bargaining agent. There's no vote, no petition and no decertification election.
Pretty dumb to telegraph your intentions with something unnecessary and get trumped by the NHL legal team. ****ing amateurs the PA leadership is.....
Good info, but i don't think the pa was confused or did this accidentally, i mean there's no way nhlpa lawyers and the fehr brothers didn't know this was unnecessary move, i don't know why they would do this. i'm not a lawyer but i do know they just lost a good chunk of leverage since the nhl has taken the litigation lead.
The action taken by both sides today does not necessarily mean the season is over in fact multiple lawyers say today's moves may pressure the pa to try to make a deal
Also all the people saying the oilers star players might become FA yes i could happen but it defintely wont happen soon and i don't see it actually happening at all. i don't think either side wants to see all contracts dissolved and it would obviously have disastrous effects on the game
So, where do Hall, Eberle, RNH, Yak and Schultz end up? Should be interesting. It'll be neat to see them come into town a couple of times a year, amirite?
If all the contracts were dissolved I'd see the following players as being very likely to stay or want to re-sign here as their first choice given a reasonable contract offer: Eberle, Hemsky, Smid, Smyth, Jones, Dubnyk, and Peckham.
Subsequent dominoes:
Provided we got Eberle back I'd see Hall being split deciding between Toronto, Calgary, and us.
If Hall and Eberle both stay I'd think Nuge and Justin Schultz would both follow, Schultz signed with us cause he liked how our future looked and that would essentially tie up most of our core, so I don't see why he wouldn't make the same decision again.
Players I think are very likely to fly the coop:
Whitney- I think would prefer a big market team
Horcoff- I think wants a bigger offensive role, would like to be a 2nd line center for a good team. (probably won't be a good team if he is their 2nd line center but that is neither here nor there)
Gagner- relationship with the organization has slowly soured. It wouldn't surprise me at all if him, Kane, and Tavares all tried finding a new team together.
Good info, but i don't think the pa was confused or did this accidentally, i mean there's no way nhlpa lawyers and the fehr brothers didn't know this was unnecessary move, i don't know why they would do this. i'm not a lawyer but i do know they just lost a good chunk of leverage since the nhl has taken the litigation lead.
The action taken by both sides today does not necessarily mean the season is over in fact multiple lawyers say today's moves may pressure the pa to try to make a deal
Also all the people saying the oilers star players might become FA yes i could happen but it defintely wont happen soon and i don't see it actually happening at all. i don't think either side wants to see all contracts dissolved and it would obviously have disastrous effects on the game
The only reason I can see for a vote is to show the players backed the proposal, gives them maybe a bit of leverage with the court.
As for existing contracts, they stay in place but the players are arguing they were sign under antitrust terms and therefore should be negated. The chances of this happening is very very remote, we are talking fat tail/black swan kind of odds. The NHL is in very good shape, the players themselves have stated many times they have options like the KHL/SEL. They just shot there antitrust arguement in the head. dumb *****.....
Sorry, maybe I am missing something. My point is that the NHL and Bettman are not dumb. They actually have played this perfectly.
my post was to add information to your intelligent post. I agree with what you said and I wanted to add to it.
De-certification is probably not the preferred route for the NHL owners. They would rather squeeze a great deal from the players. In the event that de-certification happens, I think the NHL is fully prepared to go that route.
I could see a scenario where NHL salaries are consistent with SEL and KHL salaries. The players would be free to go anywhere in the world to ply their trade. The chance of earning 2-3 times as much in the NHL may be history. The stars will still get paid but the pluggers and 2nd level players will get hammered.
The NHL rules to stop owners from speaking and the really silly comments by players throughout this process has given the NHL a strong legal position. Fehr must be kicking himself every time a player tweeted! The pro-PA guys must really hate how well Bettman has played this. Nothing is guaranteed when you walk into a courtroom but GB has certainly positioned the league well.
The only reason I can see for a vote is to show the players backed the proposal, gives them maybe a bit of leverage with the court.
As for existing contracts, they stay in place but the players are arguing they were sign under antitrust terms and therefore should be negated. The chances of this happening is very very remote, we are talking fat tail/black swan kind of odds. The NHL is in very good shape, the players themselves have stated many times they have options like the KHL/SEL. They just shot there antitrust arguement in the head. dumb *****.....
Do you understand what the anti-trust argument would look like?
Because I don't think you do. It has little to do with the existence of other leagues
If the Union decertifies it puts the leagues anti-trust exemption in danger vis a vis its reserve clauses;
- the draft
-free agency rules
- the cap
Why would the players argue that their contracts signed pre decertification are invalid? They wouldn't, maybe the NHL owners would argue for that in the case of decertification but why the hell would the players?
my post was to add information to your intelligent post. I agree with what you said and I wanted to add to it.
De-certification is probably not the preferred route for the NHL owners. They would rather squeeze a great deal from the players. In the event that de-certification happens, I think the NHL is fully prepared to go that route.
I could see a scenario where NHL salaries are consistent with SEL and KHL salaries. The players would be free to go anywhere in the world to ply their trade. The chance of earning 2-3 times as much in the NHL may be history. The stars will still get paid but the pluggers and 2nd level players will get hammered.
What??
You think decertification and the ending of the leagues reserve clauses would result in lower salaries???
On what planet? The owners continually request protectivemeasures against their spending via reserve clauses in the CBA negotiations for a reason.
We already saw what the owners would truly spend in an open system and it was clsoe to 70% of HRR.
So, where do Hall, Eberle, RNH, Yak and Schultz end up? Should be interesting. It'll be neat to see them come into town a couple of times a year, amirite?
Lets not jump to conclussions, odds are neither side wants to tear it down. At this point it has been a PA bargaining tactic, they got their bluff called. Lets see where it goes from here.
Do you understand what the anti-trust argument would look like?
Because I don't think you do. It has little to do with the existence of other leagues
If the Union decertifies it puts the leagues anti-trust exemption in danger vis a vis its reserve clauses;
- the draft
-free agency rules
- the cap
Why would the players argue that their contracts signed pre decertification are invalid? They wouldn't, maybe the NHL owners would argue for that in the case of decertification but why the hell would the players?
I definitely understand what the antitrust arguement looks like. Basically the players will claim that the league operated as a monopoly and therefore limited their ability to get fair compensation. The league colluded to keep wages down through the use of the cap for example. They will seek compensation for this by asking for up to 3x their lost wages. Under the CBA the league is protected from these charges. Their threat is these damages and then free agency. However, their claim that the league is acting as a monopoly is severely damaged given that for a monopoly to exist there must not be any other similar opportunities to earn such an income for their services. Their leaving or threatening to leave to play in other leagues where they can get similar compensation undermines their position. Their loud mouthed trash talking may work fine on the ice, in a court of law it has made the league case significantly easier to make that the league is not a monopoly and therefore not subject to antitrust enforcement.
For the record, Fehr's tactics works much better in any of the other sport because no real alternative exists and thus the claim of a monopoly is easier to prove. Guess not only is he not a "hockey guy", he is a very poor lawyer when it comes to antitrust and litigation. GB is going to own him.
BTW, here is a nice article with quotes from players talking about how good the KHL is and that you can get paid like the NHL. How do you say "undermine" in Russian??
I just don't get the NHLPA. They are going to have their members vote to decertify, but won't let them vote to see if they want to take the NHL proposal. Talk about complete BS! They really, really don't want to play hockey and make millions.
I just don't get the NHLPA. They are going to have their members vote to decertify, but won't let them vote to see if they want to take the NHL proposal. Talk about complete BS! They really, really don't want to play hockey and make millions.
That's why the NHL filed the suit. The crux of their suit is that the PA is not negotiating in good faith and that the decertification/disclaimer was their intention the entire time. Very smart on Batterman's part (that's who I'm guessing pulled this off, the guy is a brilliant lawyer) and it completely handcuffs the PA. If they file for a disclaimer before it goes to court and the court agrees with the NHL, the court may actually make a decision on the CBA from what I understand. They could legally force the players to either vote on the owners offer, or force them into legally binding arbitration. And at that point the owners would probably be open to it with a win in the courts in their back pocket, they know things would tilt their way heavily.
