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Is Crosby overrated?

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Old
12-15-2012, 09:47 PM
  #126
quoipourquoi
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So you think it's fair to compare one player's prime against the beginning of another player's career - stopping just short of that player's consecutive leads in points-per-game because it would make the former player look worse?

Wow.

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12-15-2012, 09:55 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
So you think it's fair to compare one player's prime against the beginning of another player's career - stopping just short of that player's consecutive leads in points-per-game because it would make the former player look worse?

Wow.
ditto this. you left off Forsberg's best years - out of neither's primes.

For the record, I won't argue that Jagr wasn't better offensively. He was.

My argument isn't even an argument, really. It;s a preference concerning style of play. The gap between jagr and fopps, offensively, isn;t enough, for me, to make up for the intangibles: defense, physical play, and most importantly, physical play that inspires teammates. Forsberg had no regard for himself. He put his team's success first. This isn;t a knock on Jagr (although if he had played as hard mentally, he could have blown Forsberg away, because I believe Jagr is the strongest star in hockey history) it;s just an intangible that Forsberg added.

I feel the two are very close, and both amazing. But you have indeed cherrypicked stats.

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12-15-2012, 09:59 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
So you think it's fair to compare one player's prime against the beginning of another player's career - stopping just short of that player's consecutive leads in points-per-game because it would make the former player look worse?

Wow.
Forsberg and Jagr are 2 years a part in age.

Forsberg technically started his career in the NHL in 1994-95 at the beginning of his prime.

He had played 3 years of professional hockey in the Swedish Elite league. In comparison we have Ovechkin and Crosby in 2005-06. Crosby was 18 and playing his first season professionally while Ovechkin was 2 years older and had played two season in the RSL (including one whole season in 2004-05 the year before with a lot of the NHL players due to the lockout).

Although Ovechkin won the Calder, some believed Crosby's rookie season was more impressive considering his age.

What I'm trying to say is that head to head, Jagr's and Forsberg's primes coincided.

Forsberg was 22 in 1994-95 (pretty much his prime) while Jagr was 24.

We're not talking about one being 18 and the other being 25-26.

Forsberg's last great season was in 2005-06 at age 32 when he had 75 Pts in 60 games. That same very season, Jagr was 34 and scored 123 Pts in 82 games.

Forsberg was always great, Jagr was just greater.

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12-15-2012, 10:01 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
ditto this. you left off Forsberg's best years - out of neither's primes.

For the record, I won't argue that Jagr wasn't better offensively. He was.

My argument isn't even an argument, really. It;s a preference concerning style of play. The gap between jagr and fopps, offensively, isn;t enough, for me, to make up for the intangibles: defense, physical play, and most importantly, physical play that inspires teammates. Forsberg had no regard for himself. He put his team's success first. This isn;t a knock on Jagr (although if he had played as hard mentally, he could have blown Forsberg away, because I believe Jagr is the strongest star in hockey history) it;s just an intangible that Forsberg added.

I feel the two are very close, and both amazing. But you have indeed cherrypicked stats.
The only truly great season I left off of Forsberg's list was in 2002-03 when he won his only Art Ross. Coincidentally, I also left off one of Jagr's best seasons as well in 2005-06.

If you want to just do head to head best top 10 seasons for each, Jagr still wins with a walk (not just only talking about prime).

I will use each players 10 best PPG seasons to compare them and I will show that factually Jagr's peak was indeed more impressive than Forsberg's.

Here first are Forsberg's 10 best PPG seasons in descending order from best to worst.

Season GP G A Pts. PPG

1995-96 82 30 86 116 1.41
2002-03 75 29 77 106 1.41
2003-04 39 18 37 55 1.41
1996-97 65 28 58 86 1.32
1997-98 72 25 66 91 1.26
2005-06 60 19 56 75 1.25
1998-99 78 30 67 97 1.24
2000-01 73 27 62 89 1.22
1994-95 47 15 35 50 1.06
1999-00 49 14 37 51 1.04

That's a total of 640 games played, 205 goals, 581 assists and 786 points. That's a PPG of 1.23 for his peak 10 best seasons. That is very impressive and put up against the likes of Selanne, Bure, Lindros, Sakic, Karyia, Forsberg's peak is amazing.

Only once in Forsberg's career did he average more than 1.5 PPG and that was in 2007-08 when he only played 9 games so I omitted that season.

Jagr on the other hand is on a different level.

Now for Jagr's 10 best PPG seasons

Seasons GP G A Pts PPG

1995-96 82 62 87 149 1.82
1998-99 81 44 83 127 1.57
1999-00 63 42 54 96 1.52
1996-97 63 47 48 95 1.51
2005-06 82 54 69 123 1.50
2000-01 81 52 69 121 1.50
1994-95 48 32 38 70 1.46
1997-98 77 35 67 102 1.32
1993-94 80 32 67 99 1.24
2006-07 82 30 66 96 1.17


That's a total of 739 games played, 430 goals, 648 assists and 1078 points. That's a PPG of 1.46 for his peak 10 best seasons.


Looking at their numbers Forsberg's career high in PPG is 1.41 and he accomplished that feat 3 times during his peak. Jagr on the other hand bettered that number 7 different times in his career.

Myth has it that Forsberg is a much greater playmaker than Jagr is and that he has the clear edge in that department but in fact looking at their peaks, Jagr's assists per game is 0.88 while Forsberg's is 0.90. They are very close and yet Jagr played for the majority of those 10 seasons with much more inferior linemates than Forsberg did.

Jagr then has the huge advantage in the goal scoring aspect of the game. He managed to score at least 30 goals in all of those 10 peak seasons while Forsberg only managed that feat twice, 30 being his exact career high.

Jagr's GPG is 0.58 in his peak while Forsberg's is 0.32. You can all clearly see who has the advantage here.

Now let's compare each players top 10 best seasons in comparison to their pears in such given seasons.

Forsberg has 1 Art Ross Trophy, 1 2nd place finish in scoring (behind Jagr), 2 top 5 finishes, and 1 top 10 finish. During those 10 seasons, Forsberg finished among the top 10 in scoring a total of 5 times. Forsberg also had 1 Hart trophy in that time span.

Jagr has 5 Art Ross trophies, 2 2nd place finishes in scoring, 1 top 5 finish and 2 top 10 finishes. Jagr finished in top 10 in scoring in every season for those 10 years.

Jagr also has 1 Hart Trophy, 4 2nd place finishes, 1 3rd place finish and 2 4th place finish. He also has 3 Lester B. Pearson awards.

Now you guys tell me who had a more impressive peak.


Last edited by livewell68: 12-15-2012 at 10:23 PM.
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12-15-2012, 10:06 PM
  #130
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http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...oints_per_game

i agree with including 05-06. they were both prime.


Yep, Jagr was still 8% better offensively than Forsberg. If that is what matters to you, then I won;t disagree. Jagr was better offensively. The gap isn't what you want it to be.

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12-15-2012, 10:13 PM
  #131
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i don't even mean to be arguing about this. Jagr was the greatest offensive threat since Lemieux and Gretz, and he did it in a hard era. He's number one, offensively.

Put it this way, and this is just the way I view hockey - if Fedorov was within 8% of Forsberg's production, I would consider him the best of the era. It's just the way I see things, it isn't mathematically correct. It's an opinion.

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12-15-2012, 10:15 PM
  #132
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on topic - Sid is over rated by the mainstream media, and some guys REALLY overplay his last year and a half.

In a sense, I feel he is under rated - as I consider him one of the best ever. He scores, passes, checks, and works at an elite level. there is very little lacking from his game (aside from a likeable personality).

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12-15-2012, 10:18 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...oints_per_game

i agree with including 05-06. they were both prime.


Yep, Jagr was still 8% better offensively than Forsberg. If that is what matters to you, then I won;t disagree. Jagr was better offensively. The gap isn't what you want it to be.
Who's right behind Forsberg on that list you just got from hockeyreference.com?

If it isn't Sakic, the Captain of the Colorado Avalanche, the same player that sometimes played on the same line as Forsberg (pretty much the whole year in 1998-99) and the same player that usually outscored this very same Forsberg.

Outside of the Lemieux years (3 total seasons when they were on the same team) out of the 10 peak seasons I showed), Jagr didn't have nearly as good of linemates as Forsberg had pretty much his whole career.

Forsberg and Sakic were both great players and when they played on different lines, despite which player faced the stiffer competition, they still had an advantage on Jagr in the sense that Jagr was always the opposing team's sole target to match up against.

Jagr faced more double teams, more shadowing, more elite defensive matchups both from the forwards and defensemen than any other player in the NHL in his prime.

BTW, Jagr's PPG took a huge hit in Washington (yes I will admit that he mailed in after this first season there) but then again Jagr still leads the pack with a PPG almost nearing 1.40. He was so great that even for 3 seasons where he showed he was human, he still dominates the list. Jagr also played 158 more games in that time span and still had a better PPG. We all know what playing more games does to your PPG, it usually brings it down. I'm willing to bet that if Forsberg had played the same amount of games in that span, that his PPG would be a good .10-20 less.


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12-15-2012, 10:40 PM
  #134
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there's also something to be said for being the 'go to' guy. Every PP, and every offensive zone start goes to the guy on a one line team.

As far as linemates, when he didn't have Francis or Lemieux, in this time period - he had Kovalev and Lang. I think that's ballpark equivalent to Hejduk and co.

Anyways, I'm done arguing. Jagr was better offensively. He also dominated games by puck possession. Jagr also had better hands, I think. He was also stronger and heavier. Jagr is also far too heavily criticized for the Washington years, or 'not wanting it enough'. He won me over when the Czechs won the WC in the last strike year. Played with one hand, and simply ruled the boards, handing it off to his linemates. The guy is awesome, durable, and, had he decied to stay int he NHL, and not been plagued by lockouts - would be the number 2 scorer of all time..... playing much of his carer in the Trap.

Dude's a stud, and I personally have him in my top 10 forwards of alltime. (I lean towards everyone post 1995 more than most on these boards)

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12-15-2012, 10:50 PM
  #135
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I hear Malkin's 85 Pts in just 78 games while capturing the Calder wasn't too bad was it?
Wasn't aware of Malkin being his linemate that year, who else besides the 20 year old rookie helped Sid win the crown?

You are really reaching here even if a 38 year old Mark Recchi played all year on that line.

Maybe someone has the numbers on that year?

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12-15-2012, 11:05 PM
  #136
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Wasn't aware of Malkin being his linemate that year, who else besides the 20 year old rookie helped Sid win the crown?

You are really reaching here even if a 38 year old Mark Recchi played all year on that line.

Maybe someone has the numbers on that year?
Age aside, Crosby's lone Art Ross isn't any more impressive than Jagr's 123 Pts season the year before considering linemates. Mark Recchi still did put up 68 Pts which isn't too bad. No one on that Rangers team in 2005-06 (Nylander and Straka included) came close to Malkin's overall ability and goal scoring prowess.

In fact of Crosby's 120 Pts, only 59 of them were at evenstrength (less than 50%). This means he scored 61 of his points on the powerplay meaning that a fair bit of his points would have been shared with Malkin (40 Powerplay points himself).

Comparatively the season before, Jagr had 123 Pts, 71 one of them at evenstrength with only 52 on the powerplay (24 of them goals).

What these stats tell me first of all about Crosby's 2006-07 season is that he didn't dominate as much at evenstrength meaning the linemate excuse is not really relevant and that second of all Crosby did benefit quite a bit from Malkin's presence, especially on the powerplay since Malkin had 40 Pts himself on the powerplay.

Give Jagr a teammate of Malkin's calibre of even a player capable of potting 30-40 goals such as Cheechoo in 2005-06 and Jagr not only scores 54 goals, he also probably gets an additional 10-17 and thus blowing Thornton out of the water in scoring and thus hitting 130-140 Pts.


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12-15-2012, 11:21 PM
  #137
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So you think it's fair to compare one player's prime against the beginning of another player's career - stopping just short of that player's consecutive leads in points-per-game because it would make the former player look worse?

Wow.
Exactly the guy is cherry picking in the worst way possible

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12-15-2012, 11:27 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...oints_per_game

i agree with including 05-06. they were both prime.


Yep, Jagr was still 8% better offensively than Forsberg. If that is what matters to you, then I won;t disagree. Jagr was better offensively. The gap isn't what you want it to be.
Also a large part of that gap is made up with Foppas 200 foot game.

Jagr has the better career of course but it's also very true that for most of the 1st comp on primes from 94-95 on, the majority of GM's in the NHL would also take Foppa ahead of Jagr if they were building a team around a one year hypothetical building a team to win a cup scenario."

Jagr was the better fantasy guy than NHL player while Foppa was the better player than fantasy guy, injuries aside.

and we have already gone over Foppa's better playoff value as well.

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12-15-2012, 11:34 PM
  #139
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Age aside, Crosby's lone Art Ross isn't any more impressive than Jagr's 123 Pts season the year before considering linemates. Mark Recchi still did put up 68 Pts which isn't too bad. No one on that Rangers team in 2005-06 (Nylander and Straka included) came close to Malkin's overall ability and goal scoring prowess.

In fact of Crosby's 120 Pts, only 59 of them were at evenstrength (less than 50%). This means he scored 61 of his points on the powerplay meaning that a fair bit of his points would have been shared with Malkin (40 Powerplay points himself).

Comparatively the season before, Jagr had 123 Pts, 71 one of them at evenstrength with only 52 on the powerplay (24 of them goals).

What these stats tell me first of all about Crosby's 2006-07 season is that he didn't dominate as much at evenstrength meaning the linemate excuse is not really relevant and that second of all Crosby did benefit quite a bit from Malkin's presence, especially on the powerplay since Malkin had 40 Pts himself on the powerplay.

Give Jagr a teammate of Malkin's calibre of even a player capable of potting 30-40 goals such as Cheechoo in 2005-06 and Jagr not only scores 54 goals, he also probably gets an additional 10-17 and thus blowing Thornton out of the water in scoring and thus hitting 130-140 Pts.
Man you are making way too big of a deal of Jagrs 123 point age 33 season compared to Sid getting 102 as an 18 year old.

Jagr shot the puck 368 times that season more than the next 2 players on his team combined

Sid didn't have the 20 year old Malkin difference that year either if you want to talk about linemates.

Thanks for helping me make the point of Sid's greatness here.

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12-16-2012, 01:23 AM
  #140
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I feel like changing the title of this thread to "if anyone thinks Crosby is better than Jagr ever was, they are wrong," since that seems to be what it's really about.

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12-16-2012, 03:12 AM
  #141
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In a sense, I feel he is under rated - as I consider him one of the best ever. He scores, passes, checks, and works at an elite level. there is very little lacking from his game (aside from a likeable personality).
Thats because he is underrated. How can someone who reads these boards think he is even close to being overrated? Constant belittling of him more than overrating. People only acknowlege his bad performances and forget the great ones.And Sid certainly has a likable personality.Think of Datsyuk now that is overrated player.

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12-16-2012, 03:21 AM
  #142
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And Sid certainly has a likable personality.
Troll much?

Crosby is both overrated and underrated, by different segments of the public. Some see him as some Mario reincarnate, which is blatant nonsense; others simply hate him and take every opportunity to dismiss him, which is just as unfair.

And yes, Datsyuk (and Zetterberg and Lundqvist) is definitely overrated.

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12-16-2012, 04:20 AM
  #143
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Troll much?
What? he certainly seems to be a decent and nice guy.

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12-16-2012, 07:55 AM
  #144
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Exactly the guy is cherry picking in the worst way possible
I haven't cherry picked at all, my stats even took each player's top 10 best PPG seasons, which doesn't take into consideration games played as much as the points scored in those games.

Forsberg played a total of 13 seasons so taking 10 of his best seasons is pretty fair I would say.

Again how am I cherry picking?

Until Jagr moved to Washington, Forsberg never really missed that much time to injury. As I showed, Jagr only averaged 4.14 games more per season and their ages were pretty comparable, as the gap is only 2 years.

They were both in their primes and Jagr had the clear edge in both stats and award count.

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12-16-2012, 08:27 AM
  #145
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.... and if you didn't believe Crosby was overrated, have a look at the Poll done in the General Hockey talk section in which you had to pick who the better playmaker is between Crosby, Jagr and Crosby.

Some are claiming Crosby is a top 10 playmaker all-time on the list.

His APG (assists per game) is pretty good, well that's what playing less than 500 games does to you and when you only play 22 games and put up 29 assists, it's going to help your numbers.

I really think younger hockey fans, the ones who never really even saw certain players from the 90's play in their primes (just to show you how young they are) don't really understand how per game stats work.

Lemieux's PPG was above 2.00 when he retired the first time and was the all-time leader. He's now second behind Gretzky. That's just an example.

Would Crosby's per game stats be as high in lets say 5-10 seasons' time? I doubt it.


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12-16-2012, 08:39 AM
  #146
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I haven't cherry picked at all, my stats even took each player's top 10 best PPG seasons, which doesn't take into consideration games played as much as the points scored in those games.

Forsberg played a total of 13 seasons so taking 10 of his best seasons is pretty fair I would say.

Again how am I cherry picking?

Until Jagr moved to Washington, Forsberg never really missed that much time to injury. As I showed, Jagr only averaged 4.14 games more per season and their ages were pretty comparable, as the gap is only 2 years.

They were both in their primes and Jagr had the clear edge in both stats and award count.
I would bet that without injuries Forsberg would have won either the Hart or Pearson in 2002, and both in 2004. That's by going by what we got from those years, amongst other his 2002 playoffs. He would also have won the Conn Smythe in either 1999 or 2002, had only his teammates let him. So that's about five First All-Star teams, three Harts and a Conn Smythe. How many does Jagr have? In the playoffs and internationally Forsbergs stats are well in line with Jaggers.

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12-16-2012, 09:12 AM
  #147
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I would bet that without injuries Forsberg would have won either the Hart or Pearson in 2002, and both in 2004. That's by going by what we got from those years, amongst other his 2002 playoffs. He would also have won the Conn Smythe in either 1999 or 2002, had only his teammates let him. So that's about five First All-Star teams, three Harts and a Conn Smythe. How many does Jagr have? In the playoffs and internationally Forsbergs stats are well in line with Jaggers.
Wow. Never realized Forsberg has 3 Hart's and a Conn Smythe...no wait. He doesen't.

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12-16-2012, 09:20 AM
  #148
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I would bet that without injuries Forsberg would have won either the Hart or Pearson in 2002, and both in 2004. That's by going by what we got from those years, amongst other his 2002 playoffs. He would also have won the Conn Smythe in either 1999 or 2002, had only his teammates let him. So that's about five First All-Star teams, three Harts and a Conn Smythe. How many does Jagr have? In the playoffs and internationally Forsbergs stats are well in line with Jaggers.
How many of the teams that Jagr played for in his prime rivaled the powerhouse teams of the Avalanche?

Sakic, Drury, Deadmarsh, Tanguay, Claude Lemieux, Hejduk, Roy, Foote, Blake, Bourque and the list goes on and on.

Those Avs teams were loaded offensively and defensively.

Give Jagr a half decent goaltender and defensive corpse on those late 90's Penguins teams and I willing to bet Jagr has himself a Conn Smythe or two.

In fact in terms of Cup wins, between the both of them, Jagr had the best run while winning a Cup. Jagr was dominant in 1992 and at times carried those Penguins teams when Lemieux got injured all at the tender age of 20.

If you want to play what if's, I can play it too. What if Jagr never left Pittsburgh, he would have another 2-3 Art Ross trophies and possibly another Hart.

I love Forsberg and I think he was a great player, a warrior and a player that played the whole 200 feet on the ice and when he was healthy he was easily a top 5 player in the NHL, he was however never on Jagr's level.

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12-16-2012, 01:26 PM
  #149
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I haven't cherry picked at all, my stats even took each player's top 10 best PPG seasons, which doesn't take into consideration games played as much as the points scored in those games.

Forsberg played a total of 13 seasons so taking 10 of his best seasons is pretty fair I would say.

Again how am I cherry picking?

Until Jagr moved to Washington, Forsberg never really missed that much time to injury. As I showed, Jagr only averaged 4.14 games more per season and their ages were pretty comparable, as the gap is only 2 years.

They were both in their primes and Jagr had the clear edge in both stats and award count.
The cherry picking was in regards to your 1st "prime comp"

No one is disputing Jagr was and has had the best offensive career since Wayne and Mario but you pick and choose alot of things in your arguments depending if it suits your position or not.

There is a lot of talk about the "weakness" of Jagrs teams which is true in some seasons but not for all of them either. throw in the fact that guys like Forsberg and to a lesser extent Crosby have defensive responsibility then you can make a more fair evaluation in comparing guys.

It looks like you are mainly comparing the two guys in "fantasy hockey" terms and stats though which is only part of the picture.

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12-16-2012, 01:51 PM
  #150
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made-up hypothetical nonsense
That's great and all, but perhaps it's best to evaluate players based on things that actually happened?

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