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So Who Is Bummed About The Lockout III ---> Season likely to start on Jan. 19th

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01-04-2013, 10:12 AM
  #251
Jarick
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If you're talking about the mid-December flap, Bettman said the players flipped the discussion about pensions instead of make whole. Well, they are pretty much the same thing. Pensions were supposed to come out of the make whole payments but the players wanted it separate.

Players: "we'll take $300M in make whole but want $50M in additional pension payments"
NHL: "we'll give $300M in make whole including $50M for pension payments"


I've said before, and I'll say again...no side gives in negotiations until they believe they have reached the best possible deal. I'm not convinced a deal could have been reached before the season started.

The difference between 57% and 50% share for the NHL could be $2 billion or more depending on revenues over this CBA. Give up $100-200M in profits this year for an addition up to $2 billion in profits over the next eight? That's a SMART investment.

So the NHL locked out the players, which is what makes sense from their side. Withhold their paychecks and make them sweat it out. See if they crack. Give them some mediocre offers and see if they bite. When they do, that's when you know what their limits are, and that's where you start serious negotiations. It's just as much the NHL sweating the players as the players sweating the NHL.

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01-04-2013, 10:53 AM
  #252
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Eh. You have a fully profitable 2012-2013, and there is significantly less pressure to push down the cap in 2013-2014 because the league made about hundreds of millions more in profits. Plus you keep the NHL momentum going and revenues should have kept going up.

Maybe I'm in fantasy land, but you can't tell me that if the players offered a cap freeze for this season and next season until it matches the 50/50 HRR or a 65 million/year cap plus a buyout or two back in August, the NHL would have cancelled half the season.

The current deal already won't effect this season's cap. So, even if the league go a 60 million/year cap for 2013-2014, that's works out to a "savings" of ~7.5 million/year x 30 teams ~$225 million. Now substract what the league will agree o pay back with the "make whole" provision, which is over $100 million for 2013-2014.

So, if that were the offer this summer, would the NHL intentionally forgo several hundred million dollars in profits to "save" a little over one hundred million in costs?

I just don't see that as likely. NHL would have take the deal, made more money, and avoided the headaches.

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01-04-2013, 11:36 AM
  #253
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If there was a time machine, sure. But in reality that would have revealed the PA's position and the NHL would have pushed them a lot harder.

Look, if there was a way to avoid lockouts, we wouldn't have them. The only way to avoid lockouts is to get long-term CBA's that give owners increased profits.

What we're seeing in general across pro sports is a correction from a swing that went too far in the players' direction in terms of revenue share, which was kind of an artificial creation in the last CBA.

Way back in the day, salaries were very low, and it required strikes and alternate leagues to bring them up. Then in the last 15-20 years, revenues have exponentially increased due to public demand and television revenue, and salaries were inflated as a result. To control costs, ownership in most pro sports has had lockouts to put in salary caps, define them with revenue splits, and then reduce those revenue shares as revenues rose and pushed out smaller markets.

So I understand the reality that this is the pendulum swinging the other way and 50% is more than fair for the players (and it may even need to be reduced in the future as revenues rise).

But I also understand the reality of the labor negotiations in that things happen for a reason and this isn't an isolated incident or the first time in history that stall tactics have been used or that an organization has tried to crack or splinter a union, etc. It's just how we know things to work now.

I'm not a brilliant labor mind...but I did take two semesters of classes on labor en route to my economics degree. So it's really not that surprising to me...but it's kind of annoying to read the vitriol coming out of the posters on this site (mostly the main board thread...yikes).

The only reason we're having these stupid arguments right now is because with modern social media and our need for constant news (and to instantly judge and determine who's right and wrong and who wins and loses), we take every little speck of information and overanalyze it and fit it to our conspiracy theory maps and strings.

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01-04-2013, 12:39 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
Seriously if you can't ride it out for another week just shut off the Twitter. Nothing's going to be done one way or the other until next Thursday.
I think this lockout has emphasized two things about NHL fans...

1. NHL fans are FAR more connected via Social Media than other sports fans.
2. When that is the case, far more fans over-react and things get messy.

The NBA lockout was just a little over a year ago and the social media fits were barely present...

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01-04-2013, 12:55 PM
  #255
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With you 100% on that Boz.

And I'll add, probably, that although there are fewer NHL fans, we are much more passionate and follow the news on Twitter and overreact. NBA fans are more numerous but more casual and more content with daily or weekly updates and don't get bent out of shape about it.

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01-04-2013, 01:47 PM
  #256
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Throughout this process the one thing I've been pleased with, to this point, is that no Minnesotan players have made themselves out to be like those who've consistently put themselves out there for ridicule. Whether it's actually Minnesotan born players or just Wild players.

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01-04-2013, 01:53 PM
  #257
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Seto was pushing my good will a little. he calmed down a little after he got attacked on twitter though.

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01-04-2013, 01:57 PM
  #258
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Lots of people got down on Seto and Suter.

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01-04-2013, 01:57 PM
  #259
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Suter also made comments that he later retracted, but technically, he wasn't a Wild player yet.

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01-04-2013, 01:58 PM
  #260
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I dislike Setoguchi enough to the point where I don't consider him a Wild player.

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01-04-2013, 02:05 PM
  #261
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i think a lot of players were surprised not everyone was on their side in this. not that it mattered much to them but there they are best served by keeping their mouth shut, just as teams/the league can't be too vocal about criticizing players. Players are a marketing tool for the teams and fan opinion or general popularity makes a difference in teams' commitment to retaining certain players or bumping their paychecks a little. These are the guys they're going to be sending on good-will visits to hospitals, sitting in at fan events, etc.

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01-04-2013, 02:21 PM
  #262
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Seto i don't much care for, not a huge suter fan my self i'm actually looking forward to two years down the road when Brodin is our Number 1 and people here are crying about how much money we are paying our number 2 guy.

but yeah i'll echo what others have said, if Toews was on this team or any other **** who didn't have the common sense to shut up, i'd want them gone asap.

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01-04-2013, 02:27 PM
  #263
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Brodin a #1 NHL defenseman in only two years?

A very bold prediction.

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01-04-2013, 02:37 PM
  #264
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I didn't read much into any of the hockey players' comments like I don't really care that much about what your average picketer thinks. Some guys lived up to the stereotype of the dumb jock, some guys seemed to parrot the company line, some guys were smart and kept their mouths shut.

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01-04-2013, 03:33 PM
  #265
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aaaaaand just like that the talks break apart and both sides point the finger

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01-04-2013, 03:40 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by forthewild View Post
aaaaaand just like that the talks break apart and both sides point the finger
wut?

Last I heard was that the Mediators have been in with the NHLPA for two and a half hours...

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01-04-2013, 04:02 PM
  #267
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Yeah...not quite.

Quote:
Aaron Ward
Mediator has left NHLPA hotel. #TSN

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01-04-2013, 05:04 PM
  #268
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From Twitter:

Quote:
Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun

To recap the day so far: mediator has gone back and forth between both sides, trying to find middle ground on unresolved issues...

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01-04-2013, 05:42 PM
  #269
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this whole process reminds me of fourth grade when I used to pass notes back and forth with my "love interest" using a third party, trying to convince her I was awesome while getting little feedback. must have sucked for Christine.

sorry, Christine.

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01-04-2013, 08:12 PM
  #270
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Going back on players who are disliked right now, Winnipeg seems to despise Hainsey these days.

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01-04-2013, 11:08 PM
  #271
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I'm back on the positive train this gets done. But will be @ the last possible moment.

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01-05-2013, 03:01 AM
  #272
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Don't shoot me, cause I don't really believe it.
But Finnish media is getting far too positive that the lockout is coming to an end soon

Saku Koivu has left the Turku. He has been drilling there like three weeks with TPS. He said before that if lockout continues he might also play with them after the holidays.

Also Rich Peverley and Lars eller are leaving JYP, they're going to play only two more games and go back.

Link1

Link2

These are of course a bit different situations than those who left for xmas. But still, nobody can know anything as long as there's no ****in' agreement. And there's none. But there are two dinosaurs named Fehr and Betts instead. So, if they can sign a deal separately with mediatiors only and can avoid seeing face to face like ever again.. Then, maybe, some day, perhaps, or?

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01-05-2013, 08:05 AM
  #273
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Originally Posted by bozak911 View Post
wut?

Last I heard was that the Mediators have been in with the NHLPA for two and a half hours...
the last few days it seems like progress was being made then this phantom accusation of NHL trying to bait and switch comes up.

i'm sorry but if the Lawyers for the PA didn't catch any changes before hand then they are stupid as ****, if the NHL did this illegally then they will get punished (but given how PA isn't going to the court you have to wonder if this is another Fehr tactic to brainwash the players)

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01-05-2013, 09:43 AM
  #274
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the last few days it seems like progress was being made then this phantom accusation of NHL trying to bait and switch comes up.

i'm sorry but if the Lawyers for the PA didn't catch any changes before hand then they are stupid as ****, if the NHL did this illegally then they will get punished (but given how PA isn't going to the court you have to wonder if this is another Fehr tactic to brainwash the players)
Wouldn't put it past Fehr in the least little bit.

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01-05-2013, 11:58 AM
  #275
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Looks like NHL and NHLPA are going meeting face to face today. Let the note passing stop and get the deal done.

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