HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > NHL Draft - Prospects
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

NHL Draft - Prospects Discuss hockey prospects from all over the world and the NHL Draft.

HF Top-20 Prospects Stats Update

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-13-2012, 01:49 PM
  #51
Vladys Gumption
Global Moderator
Colt55
 
Vladys Gumption's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: St. Louis, MO
Country: United States
Posts: 16,952
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyratoku View Post
Alot of us Minnesota fans thought Schwartz' placement on the list was disappointing. For one, him being ranked ahead of Mikael Granlund was a bit of a shock, but most of us also saw Schwartz play a bunch in college. Playing against the Sioux, Goofers, Bulldogs and so on.

I can't speak for everyone, but a good portion of us just don't see a whole lot in him. I haven't caught him much this season, but if the stats are saying anything, it's just not looking all that good. Oh well. I'm a bit surprised at Zib's performance so far this season though. I was not expecting that.
While I agree Granlund should be ahead of Schwartz (top 5 for sure) you can't just judge Schwartz on his stats. Peoria is god awful. He and Hensick are really the only two offensive threats we have. His goal totals are actually ahead of what I was expecting. Where he's getting killed is his assists totals. I mean when you're teammates can't finish, it doesn't matter how good you are. You won't be getting any points.

Vladys Gumption is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-13-2012, 02:48 PM
  #52
warrior60
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Hockey Town
Country: United States
Posts: 214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicNeilTime View Post
I really don't think you do.

It's 20 games, yes 20 games into these prospects seasons. Most of these guys are 19/20, give it some time. Because Zibanejad and Schwartz haven't produced as well as these guys early on, certainly doesn't make the guys you mentioned better. Don't give up on these guys too early.
Its goes back to last year in the ncaa where both Zucker and Nelson put up as good or better numbers then Schwartz.

warrior60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-13-2012, 03:16 PM
  #53
Chaos
And the winner is...
 
Chaos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Watauga, TX
Country: United States
Posts: 7,938
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Chaos
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimyrmidon View Post
I'm not sure the hype coming out of last year's playoffs surrounding Kreider was warranted. The way poeple were gushing over him, you'd think he was an exciting guy like Yakupov, a #1 overall pick who put up very impressive numbers in the CHL.
It wasnt. The guy put up 1 good(not great) year out of 3 in college, then comes into the NHL playoffs and performs OK(a 32 point pace, albeit a small sample size). People get too blinded by his size and skating ability to actually notice his lack of production for most of his career(over significant sample sizes) since being drafted.

Chaos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-13-2012, 03:29 PM
  #54
Analyzer*
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Renfrew, ON.
Country: Canada
Posts: 44,971
vCash: 50
The hype around Kreider... or excitement around him was that he came into the NHL during the playoffs and preformed exceptionally. Combine that with him being 6'3 and flying like the wind people were "wowed" by him.

He may not be able to dangle like a Yakupov, but players of that size who can exhibit great speed is just as attractive as someone who can stick handle well.

Analyzer* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-13-2012, 03:55 PM
  #55
BruinsBtn
Registered User
 
BruinsBtn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,624
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
Actually, as I said, I judge them all on current performance, track record, and skillset. And yes, stats are a part of that (for the record, Rielly has had near PPG production over the past 2 years, 2nd only to Dougie Hamilton amongst CHL dmen, and Dougie is a year older).



Yeah, I don't think you've watched the games.


Cody Ceci ring a bell? Ryan Murphy? Ryan Sproul?

How about Mathien Brisebois? Konrad Abeltshauer? Xavier Ouellet?

All those CHL defensemen have better PPG than Rielly over the past two seasons.

BruinsBtn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-13-2012, 04:06 PM
  #56
Trunz05
Registered User
 
Trunz05's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 316
vCash: 500
People here need to keep in mind that the OP is a notorious stat watcher from the leaf board, if your prospect is producing Zeke thinks highly of them no matter how they're playing, if they aren't he thinks less of them no matter how well they may or may not be playing.

Trunz05 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-13-2012, 04:21 PM
  #57
um
Registered User
 
um's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,717
vCash: 500
i remember when they voted in Schwartz, Zibanejad, and Kreider so high and i thought is was ridiculous. glad to see im right so far

um is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-13-2012, 04:23 PM
  #58
jedimyrmidon
Registered User
 
jedimyrmidon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 684
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
The hype around Kreider... or excitement around him was that he came into the NHL during the playoffs and preformed exceptionally. Combine that with him being 6'3 and flying like the wind people were "wowed" by him.

He may not be able to dangle like a Yakupov, but players of that size who can exhibit great speed is just as attractive as someone who can stick handle well.
So he's like Erik Cole and Max Pacioretty. I don't see why that justifies him being ranked so high or praised to the extent he is/was. Heck, I remember during the WJCs how folks were saying that teams should be very afraid of Kreider.

jedimyrmidon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-13-2012, 05:01 PM
  #59
this providence
Chips in Bed Theorem
 
this providence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: St. Paul
Posts: 10,380
vCash: 500
Those of us who've been around the WCHA for a while never really understood the Schwartz steam, especially to the point that HF seems to look at him. As a prospect playing in that league last year, you'd really really have to go out of your way to find someone who would have called him the best pro prospect going in that league, let alone collegiate hockey. Then of course you throw the CC offensive output stigma into the equation. Don't want to trash on the kid too much as I think he is a sound prospect but certainly not at the level that HF is suggesting he is.

As far as being a Wild fan and seeing Dumba in the top 20, I found it absolutely shocking. Granted, given our limited viewings of CHL hockey here in Minnesota I can't really comment a whole lot on him as a pro prospect based on much else of what I seen of him at Dev Camp. But I don't see any reason for him to be included in the top 20, and I'm not even sure he's top 50 worthy at this point; unless your judging prospects based on maximum ceiling (which is a fundamentally flawed way of viewing prospects). At this stage for the Wild, I'd have Granlund, Brodin, Zucker, Coyle, and Larsson all in front of Dumba. And depending on how each individual views goaltending prospects, I could listen to an argument for Hackett (personally, I don't put much credence into any goaltender not yet proven at the NHL level unless they're a generational-type talent).

__________________

After Meaningless Win - 3/29/12 - Game 77 | SoH-"Who knows, that could have cost us a Cup tonight." | Dooohkay
this providence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-13-2012, 05:07 PM
  #60
Kershaw
 
Kershaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Country:
Posts: 25,510
vCash: 500
I remember Zach Parise had a mediocre ppg in the AHL his first pro yr as well. Kreider will be fine and his physical tools propel him into the upper echelon of prospects.

Kershaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-13-2012, 05:20 PM
  #61
Analyzer*
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Renfrew, ON.
Country: Canada
Posts: 44,971
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimyrmidon View Post
So he's like Erik Cole and Max Pacioretty. I don't see why that justifies him being ranked so high or praised to the extent he is/was. Heck, I remember during the WJCs how folks were saying that teams should be very afraid of Kreider.
Pretty much. Though, the way he broke in, it was looking as if he'd be better than those two in terms of goal scoring.

Analyzer* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-13-2012, 05:29 PM
  #62
Chaos
And the winner is...
 
Chaos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Watauga, TX
Country: United States
Posts: 7,938
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Chaos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
I remember Zach Parise had a mediocre ppg in the AHL his first pro yr as well. Kreider will be fine and his physical tools propel him into the upper echelon of prospects.
Except in Parise's two years in college he scored 61 and 55 points in 39 and 37 games respectively. Compared with Kreider's 23, 24, and 45 point seasons in college. Parise actually had a history of producing over a large sample size, somthing Kreider doesnt have at all. And Parise's 20 year old season in the AHL wasnt terrible, with 58 points in 73 games.

There is no comparison at all between the two of them.

Chaos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-13-2012, 05:33 PM
  #63
bud12
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,730
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 13 HockeyTown 40 View Post
Obviously you haven't watched much of Smith. The guy has a mean streak (big hitter, good fighter, and fights almost too much). Defensemen usually take longer to develop and Smith had the likes of Lidstrom and Kronwall to compete against for a top-four spot in Detroit. Even though Babcock (one of the top coaches in the NHL who's usually stubborn to young players) has stated for the past two years that Smith should be in the NHL, Holland didn't want him playing 3rd pairing minutes.

The ignorance toward Smith is really getting annoying. There are very few offensive defenseman, if any, that have a mean streak like him, hes pretty unique.

I already spent 10 pages arguing this in the Trade Forum so I'll leave it at that. You'll see that he's worth the hype whenever the lockout ends.
pls, the guy average like 5 fights a year, how it can be too much

bud12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-13-2012, 06:02 PM
  #64
SI90
Registered User
 
SI90's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: StrongIsland
Country: United States
Posts: 30,869
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seafoam View Post
Nino Neiderreiter is 9th and Brock Nelson is 26th in AHL scoring, not bad considering Zibanejad, Schwartz and Kreider are on the list
Nino is not considerd a prospect anymore because of NHL games played.

SI90 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-13-2012, 06:15 PM
  #65
Sidney the Kidney
Simmons' Nightmare
 
Sidney the Kidney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,897
vCash: 100
Slightly OT, but I'm not really sure what the point of prorating all their stats over 82 games is. They play in different leagues, and different levels. So it's kind of a waste of a comparison to even bother with.

I mean, if Player X has 50 points in 30 games thus far in junior, and Player Y has 15 points thus far in 30 games in the AHL, comparing those stats doesn't tell you a single thing about where each prospect is compared to one another, let alone bothering to prorate over a 82 game schedule.

I don't know. Just a minor nitpick. I just don't understand the point of prorating or comparing stats for players who are playing in different leagues or levels. Usually the prorating stuff is done when comparing stats of two players who play in the exact same league.

Sidney the Kidney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-13-2012, 06:30 PM
  #66
Leafidelity
#BudsAllDay
 
Leafidelity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 31,116
vCash: 1875
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukasfindl View Post
Rielly too high, not sure he should be on this list at all. Klefbom definitely shouldnt be.
Well the only real direct competition he's faced among defensemen on this list is Hamilton, Murray and Reinhart. As of the past few weeks he's shown to be ahead of Reinhart (virtue of being an early lock) by Hockey Canada, so I don't think it's a stretch to see him that high.


Last edited by Leafidelity: 12-13-2012 at 06:37 PM.
Leafidelity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-13-2012, 06:34 PM
  #67
zeke
#freewilly
 
zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 38,003
vCash: 500
Just think of it as gpg/ppg, but in an easier to understand format.

zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-13-2012, 06:50 PM
  #68
zeke
#freewilly
 
zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 38,003
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruinsBtn View Post


Cody Ceci ring a bell? Ryan Murphy? Ryan Sproul?

How about Mathien Brisebois? Konrad Abeltshauer? Xavier Ouellet?

All those CHL defensemen have better PPG than Rielly over the past two seasons.
You're right, there's a handful of older dmen who just edge him in ppg.

It must be my homerism that got rielly onto canada's top wjc pairing, despite your personal observations that he's not very good.

zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-13-2012, 07:37 PM
  #69
blinkman360
Norris
 
blinkman360's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Lawn Guyland
Country: United States
Posts: 10,558
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongIslanders90 View Post
Nino is not considerd a prospect anymore because of NHL games played.
It's unfortunate. Assuming he would have had another big season in Portland had he stayed, he'd probably be the 3rd Islander on this list with the way he's played in Bridgeport this year.

blinkman360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2012, 05:28 AM
  #70
ottawah
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,078
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
Am I the only one who finds Dumba very underwhelming?
I'd not say underwhelming, but I am having trouble imagining how he will play at the NHL level. Over coming size issues can be done, but its more the style he plays. He plays junior like he's 6'3 230, and he cannot do that at the NHL level. He's have to change his game to be more like a Karrlson. I hope he does, seems like a great guy.

Also do not forget he is a very young player compared to others drafted around him due to his Aug B day, for example he's pretty much a year younger than Ryan Murray.

ottawah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2012, 05:33 AM
  #71
ottawah
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,078
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
I find it interesting that the four guys who are overrated are playing in a league with men, while the three who are underrated are still playing against boys.
2 of the 3 who are playing against boys are not eligible to play in the AHL, And if not for the lockout, Strome (easily leading OHL in scoring) would likely not be here as well.

I'd make the argument Z now is in his third year playing against men, and cannot seem to find a scoring touch. Playing against competition closer to yourself if the best way to improve .....

ottawah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2012, 05:55 AM
  #72
joe89
#5
 
joe89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Country: Sweden
Posts: 19,704
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
2 of the 3 who are playing against boys are not eligible to play in the AHL, And if not for the lockout, Strome (easily leading OHL in scoring) would likely not be here as well.

I'd make the argument Z now is in his third year playing against men, and cannot seem to find a scoring touch. Playing against competition closer to yourself if the best way to improve .....
There was nothing wrong with his 0.5ppg last year in his U19 season(short of Lindholm the best U19 forward this season has 3 points FYI).

But not a great offensive start in the A, I'll give you that. Two big games and people will say he's got tolerable production though, we're down to extremely small samples. I'm not one of his biggest fans, but I'll leave the conclusion jumping to others and watch him play a full season first.

joe89 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2012, 07:10 AM
  #73
Paradise*
Individual thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Waiverpeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,316
vCash: 500
List needs more Scheifele. The guy gets literally zero credit on these boards.

Paradise* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2012, 07:18 AM
  #74
MaxLacoste
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Montreal
Posts: 441
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
I'd not say underwhelming, but I am having trouble imagining how he will play at the NHL level. Over coming size issues can be done, but its more the style he plays. He plays junior like he's 6'3 230, and he cannot do that at the NHL level. He's have to change his game to be more like a Karrlson. I hope he does, seems like a great guy.

Also do not forget he is a very young player compared to others drafted around him due to his Aug B day, for example he's pretty much a year younger than Ryan Murray.
You could say that about Subban and look how amazing he is right now. Never change the way of a player. We all tought that Subban could never translate his game to the NHL and he did.

MaxLacoste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2012, 08:03 PM
  #75
Micklebot
Moderator
I bee-beard'lieve
 
Micklebot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 18,156
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
You're right, there's a handful of older dmen who just edge him in ppg.

It must be my homerism that got rielly onto canada's top wjc pairing, despite your personal observations that he's not very good.
Kind of a copout excuse, ceci is all of 3 months older. No one is saying rielly is a bad prospect, just that you made a clearly erroneous statement

Micklebot is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:05 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2017 All Rights Reserved.