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NHL Lockout XXVIII: Don't worry about the lockout. Let me worry about blank.

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Old
12-13-2012, 02:36 PM
  #601
Oshawa General
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Originally Posted by YogiCanucks View Post
Crosby is the one player who would actually have some power if he wanted to use it.

How fast would the NHL re-think their stall tactics if he (and maybe got 2 or 3 other superstars Ovechkin/Stamkos/Giroux) threatened to permanently move to the KHL?

How fast would the PA re-think their stall tactics if Crosby announced he was willing to take the NHLs offer and suggested other players should get on board.
You're right, I've been saying since September, with Fehr involved and his stalling tactics and dictator approach, (which BTW has worked quite easily with the NHLPA players), the only way this will ever get done, is when someone with clout, stands up and says, enough already, Crosby could be that guy, but he needs back up as well.
Fehr is NO hurry to get a deal done, an interesting note, after the 1994 MLB strike, it took (3) years to get a new CBA done

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12-13-2012, 02:37 PM
  #602
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The doors are locked and the owners have the keys. No real question about who is in control and who is responsible.

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12-13-2012, 02:37 PM
  #603
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As for Sid's comments, if neither side is going to budge, will it ease your mind knowing that they're at least in the same room staring silently at one another? There's only so much talking one can do to explain their position. At some point, there has to be movement, whether it be from one or both sides. Until either side is willing to blink first to begin closing the gap, sitting in a room together won't do anything.

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12-13-2012, 02:38 PM
  #604
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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
I'm pretty sure it's the actual dollars that calculate the players share. I wasn't aware that escrow is determined by the caphit, but in the bigger picture, it means very little. No matter how much or how little escrow is taken during the season, how much the players get back or pay into depends on the actual salaries earned in that year.
Going by extrapolation - the salary cap is set by HRR and the players' share of HRR. A player's cap hit is based off an average salary over the term, not the actual year-to-year dollars paid to him. Escrow is being collected as a means to ensure the proper HRR split between owners & players, and therefore would only be calculated on cap dollars, not real dollars.

If it were all based on actual salaries during the year, then back-diving deals wouldn't matter.

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12-13-2012, 02:41 PM
  #605
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7 years to re-sign your own player. A player isn't qualified by a team. That player signs a 1 year deal and has a big year. He is eligible for the 7 year SPC. The team doesn't have to give him 7 years. The loophole will be signing a player to a 1 year deal and then giving him a 7 year deal. Handshake or verbal agreement.

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12-13-2012, 02:42 PM
  #606
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Originally Posted by YogiCanucks View Post
Crosby is the one player who would actually have some power if he wanted to use it.

How fast would the NHL re-think their stall tactics if he (and maybe got 2 or 3 other superstars Ovechkin/Stamkos/Giroux) threatened to permanently move to the KHL?

How fast would the PA re-think their stall tactics if Crosby announced he was willing to take the NHLs offer and suggested other players should get on board.
And the biggest problem is he just signed a 13 year contract.

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Old
12-13-2012, 02:45 PM
  #607
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Originally Posted by Stewie Griffin View Post
Going by extrapolation - the salary cap is set by HRR and the players' share of HRR. A player's cap hit is based off an average salary over the term, not the actual year-to-year dollars paid to him. Escrow is being collected as a means to ensure the proper HRR split between owners & players, and therefore would only be calculated on cap dollars, not real dollars.

If it were all based on actual salaries during the year, then back-diving deals wouldn't matter.
Can someone else verify this?

I'm not saying that escrow is being calculated by real dollars. I'm saying that the HRR final tally looks at real dollars. If the players share was based on the caphits, that makes no sense to me because it would be possible that escrow doesn't actually protect the owners from getting the real dollar value of their HRR share.

My understanding is that if revenues are 3.3B in 2011-2012, then the owners get 1.419B of that money. After calculations, it turns out that players salaries in dollars actually added up to 1.9B which means that the owners recoup 190M from the players via escrow. Again, that's how I've understood it and how it's been explained to me.

If you're only referring to how the escrow is calculated, that doesn't really have much impact on my point. If players share is based on cap hit and not real dollars, then that would impact my understanding of the situation.

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12-13-2012, 02:46 PM
  #608
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
7 years to re-sign your own player. A player isn't qualified by a team. That player signs a 1 year deal and has a big year. He is eligible for the 7 year SPC. The team doesn't have to give him 7 years. The loophole will be signing a player to a 1 year deal and then giving him a 7 year deal. Handshake or verbal agreement.
Old news, brought this up last week.

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And the biggest problem is he just signed a 13 year contract.
how is that a problem?

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12-13-2012, 02:46 PM
  #609
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Both sides think they've given enough and they're not going to give anymore. It's actually kind of pathetic.

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12-13-2012, 02:47 PM
  #610
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Considering that these aren't regular people with regular jobs, I can only assume that these people aren't living paycheck to paycheck and had the foresight to put enough money away to support themselves for a year, or found work in Europe to sustain themselves.
You should watch ESPNs 30 for 30 "Broke".

That's a pretty big assumption.

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12-13-2012, 02:49 PM
  #611
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Both sides think they've given enough and they're not going to give anymore. It's actually kind of pathetic.
What it takes is one of the leaders on either side to say, let's look at the big picture and get a deal done. What it takes is leadership. Sadly, that is sorely lacking on both sides.

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12-13-2012, 02:50 PM
  #612
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Both sides think they've given enough and they're not going to give anymore. It's actually kind of pathetic.
You also have two Hawks in the room. Both are used to eventually overpowering their opponent.

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12-13-2012, 02:51 PM
  #613
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Originally Posted by Scoobs View Post
Both sides think they've given enough and they're not going to give anymore. It's actually kind of pathetic.
Actually, this is how they will come to an agreement. Owners says this is as far as we'll go, Players say the same, and someone will flinch first (my guess, the players).

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12-13-2012, 02:55 PM
  #614
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Originally Posted by Stewie Griffin View Post
Going by extrapolation - the salary cap is set by HRR and the players' share of HRR. A player's cap hit is based off an average salary over the term, not the actual year-to-year dollars paid to him. Escrow is being collected as a means to ensure the proper HRR split between owners & players, and therefore would only be calculated on cap dollars, not real dollars.

If it were all based on actual salaries during the year, then back-diving deals wouldn't matter.
Escrow is not based on cap hit, it's based on actual compensation.


Quote:
50.4 League-wide Player Compensation, Players' Share, Escrow Account.
(a) "League-wide Player Compensation." "League-wide Player Compensation" for each League Year means the aggregate Actual Club Salaries for all Clubs, as set forth in Section 50.2(c), plus Benefits, as set forth in Section 50.3(a). For further clarity, any unearned Performance Bonuses that may be included in any Club's Actual Club Salary, as defined below, in a League Year shall not be included in League- wide Player Compensation for such League Year (i.e., Performance Bonuses are included in League-wide Player Compensation for a given League Year only as paid). Deferred Salaries and Deferred Bonuses shall be included in League-wide Player Compensation for the League Year in which they are earned, not in the League Year in which they are paid. In no event shall Actual Club Salaries or Benefits be included in League-wide Player Compensation, directly or indirectly, more than once, the purpose of this provision being to preclude the double-counting of any Player costs.
Quote:
(c) "Actual Club Salary." "Actual Club Salary" shall mean the entire aggregate amount committed by each Club in a League Year, annualized, but calculated daily, to be paid or earned as Player Salaries and Bonuses in that League Year (and which is intended to include any and all other commitments to Players as set forth below), with such Player Salaries and Bonuses calculated in accordance with this Section 50.2(c). Actual Club Salary does not include Benefits. Actual Club Salary is utilized to calculatethe League-wide Player Compensation, as contrasted with Averaged Club Salary, set forth in Section 50.5(d)(i) below, which is utilized to determine a Club's Payroll Room. For purposes of calculating League-wide Player Compensation for a given League Year, as set forth in the Final HRR Report, the Actual Club Salary shall include the Players' Salaries and Bonuses and any other amounts of money paid by the Clubs (except that Deferred Salaries and Deferred Bonuses are included in Actual Club Salary in the League Year when earned, not when paid), including any amounts deposited into the Escrow Account.
For each League Year, "Actual Club Salary" for each Club shall be calculated as the sum of the following amounts:
(i) The aggregate Player Salaries and Bonuses paid or earned for that League Year for all Players on the Club's Active Roster, Injured Reserve, Injured Non Roster and Non Roster; plus
(ii) All amounts earned in that League Year by Players on account of Deferred Salary and Deferred Bonuses (in accordance with Section 50.2(a) and Section 50.2(b) respectively); plus
(iii) All Ordinary Course Buyout Amounts paid in that League Year (in accordance with Section 50.9(i)); plus
(iv) All Player Salary and Bonuses earned in a League Year by a Player who is in the second or later year of a multi-year SPC which was signed when the Player was age 35 or older (as of June 30 prior to the League Year in which the SPC is to be effective), regardless of whether, or where, the Player is playing, except to the extent the Player is playing under his SPC in the minor leagues, in which case only the Player Salary and Bonuses in excess of $100,000 shall count towards the calculation of Actual Club Salary; plus
(v) For SPCs entered into prior to the execution of this Agreement, the face amount of any vested option, the face amount resultant from a salary revision, a salary or bonus guarantee, or other such compensatory provision in such 1995 Standard Player Contracts (see also Exhibit 16 of this Agreement regarding options); plus
(vi) With respect to any new Player Salary or Bonus dispute between a Player and a Club arising after the execution of this Agreement (i.e., relating to Player Salary and Bonuses payable on account of the 2005-06 League Year or any subsequent League Year), any amount paid (excluding interest) in satisfaction of any award or judgment relating to, or settlement of, any such dispute, but only to the extent that such amounts have not otherwise been included in the Player's Player Salary or Bonuses.

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Old
12-13-2012, 02:56 PM
  #615
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The doors are locked and the owners have the keys. No real question about who is in control and who is responsible.

Your right, Don and the PA have really messed this up!

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12-13-2012, 02:56 PM
  #616
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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
Can someone else verify this?

I'm not saying that escrow is being calculated by real dollars. I'm saying that the HRR final tally looks at real dollars. If the players share was based on the caphits, that makes no sense to me because it would be possible that escrow doesn't actually protect the owners from getting the real dollar value of their HRR share.

My understanding is that if revenues are 3.3B in 2011-2012, then the owners get 1.419B of that money. After calculations, it turns out that players salaries in dollars actually added up to 1.9B which means that the owners recoup 190M from the players via escrow. Again, that's how I've understood it and how it's been explained to me.

If you're only referring to how the escrow is calculated, that doesn't really have much impact on my point. If players share is based on cap hit and not real dollars, then that would impact my understanding of the situation.
I'd like confirmation as well. Ah, I see it's been provided above.

HRR establishes the salary cap, and it's the player's cap hit (average salary) that matters when applied to the salary cap, not actual contract dollars. Its why teams can pay guys like Parise a $10 million signing bonus and a $12 million salary but only have a cap hit of $7.5 million (which is the part that counts towards HRR, and why the system as is, is failing)

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12-13-2012, 02:57 PM
  #617
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If the owners put a little bit more cash into "make whole" do you think that would be enough to at least push the NHLPA to put a proposal to a vote?

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12-13-2012, 02:58 PM
  #618
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Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger

Incredibly, the wait continues. League waits while mediation process continues. Could be a mtng...might not be. What's the rush...right?

https://twitter.com/DarrenDreger/sta...29011207921664

Yawn. Going to take a nap.

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12-13-2012, 02:58 PM
  #619
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
Escrow is not based on cap hit, it's based on actual compensation.
So is the amount of real dollars actually paid to players what constitutes (formerly) 57% of HRR? Or is it the cap hit?

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12-13-2012, 02:58 PM
  #620
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Originally Posted by Scoobs View Post
If the owners put a little bit more cash into "make whole" do you think that would be enough to at least push the NHLPA to put a proposal to a vote?
They tried that. Players didn't vote. Contract rights are the final battle in this war, and it may end up being a separate war in itself.

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12-13-2012, 02:59 PM
  #621
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If the owners put a little bit more cash into "make whole" do you think that would be enough to at least push the NHLPA to put a proposal to a vote?
My personal view is that the owners will need to give on contract length to maybe 6 or 7 years. If I was acting for the players that and make whole would be the only issues I'd really care that much about. The variance % and length of CBA are, IMO fairly minor issues for the players. Who knows though?

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12-13-2012, 03:00 PM
  #622
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Originally Posted by CBJBrassard16 View Post
Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger

Incredibly, the wait continues. League waits while mediation process continues. Could be a mtng...might not be. What's the rush...right?

https://twitter.com/DarrenDreger/sta...29011207921664

Yawn. Going to take a nap.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewie Griffin View Post
So is the amount of real dollars actually paid to players what constitutes (formerly) 57% of HRR? Or is it the cap hit?
Actual $.

Which is why frontloaded deals are ''murder'' on escrow.

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12-13-2012, 03:02 PM
  #623
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Originally Posted by Stewie Griffin View Post
So is the amount of real dollars actually paid to players what constitutes (formerly) 57% of HRR? Or is it the cap hit?
It's the real amount of dollars paid the the players compared to what 57% of actual HRR should be. Back diving contracts increase the chances that total player compensation will be over that 57%.

EDIT - Although at the tail end of the back diving contracts, IF the player is still playing for league minimum salary at age 65, the back diving contracts will actually be beneficial for escrow purposes. They just mean some other player can't get paid with the cap space.

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12-13-2012, 03:02 PM
  #624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
My personal view is that they will need to give on contract length to maybe 6 or 7 years. Who knows though?
If they truly want that 5 years though, up the make whole to $350 million or something. Maybe that'll be that "big bone" that the NHL needs to throw at the NHLPA to get them talking internally about a vote.

Regardless though, I wonder what the hell is happening today. Is the NHLPA working with the mediator to hash out a proposal that might be appetizing enough for the NHL to bite on, or are they still "evaluating" how close they are? I know negotiations are tedious, but damn.

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12-13-2012, 03:04 PM
  #625
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Originally Posted by CBJBrassard16 View Post
Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger

Incredibly, the wait continues. League waits while mediation process continues. Could be a mtng...might not be. What's the rush...right?

https://twitter.com/DarrenDreger/sta...29011207921664

Yawn. Going to take a nap.
I'm beginning to wonder whether this round of mediation is to bridge the gap between the NHL and NHLPA, or the NHLPA itself? The owners don't seem to be involved, and the mediators don't seem to be paying much attention to them.

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