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NHL Lockout XXVIII: Don't worry about the lockout. Let me worry about blank.

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Old
12-12-2012, 08:50 PM
  #101
LickTheEnvelope
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Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/bettman...3923--nhl.html

"The owners are not prepared to operate under this collective bargaining agreement for another season," said Bettman, according to the Sports Business Daily. "This isn't news. The union has been told this repeatedly for the last 9-12 months."
...

So again, where has the NHLPA ever proposed playing under the old CBA?

That wasn't in any of their offers I have seen.

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12-12-2012, 08:52 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire11 View Post
This part is what a lot of people need to remember, he has a history of going against the wishes of his union just to get his way, no matter how obvious is it that what he is doing is not the right thing to do.

I'm not going to get back into the "uneducated high school dropouts" thing again, but to hire Fehr after his congressional embarrassment, that's a fairly unintelligent move for the PA as a whole.
But it's not a coincidence, that the NHL is the only league to have cancel an entire season, NHL players have a tendency to follow their leader, at some point you have to be smart enough to realize that's probably the best deal you will have.

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12-12-2012, 08:53 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by HawksFan74 View Post
Yah, I've been paying attention. According to many it's all Fehr's fault. Although neither side moved and everybody is an expert here on Bettman's/Fehr's motivations for everything.

What's so hard about cutting contracts lengths down the middle. They are both hard headed.
After last week's theatre and subsequent time to cool off, I agree with this. Both sides can easily say let's COMPROMISE and get half. It's so simple, yet these lawyers with years of experience can't grasp this, yet a 4-year old kid can.

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12-12-2012, 08:54 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
...

So again, where has the NHLPA ever proposed playing under the old CBA?

That wasn't in any of their offers I have seen.
The players have constantly said "we're willing to play".

When they say they are willing to play, it means they are willing to play under the same rules as the last CBA.

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12-12-2012, 08:55 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Pyromaniac3 View Post
After last week's theatre and subsequent time to cool off, I agree with this. Both sides can easily say let's COMPROMISE and get half. It's so simple, yet these lawyers with years of experience can't grasp this, yet a 4-year old kid can.
It's personal. Fans lose out to swollen egos.

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12-12-2012, 08:57 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
The players have constantly said "we're willing to play".

When they say they are willing to play, it means they are willing to play under the same rules as the last CBA.
and the fact that the players were locked out and did not go on strike indicates they were willing to continue playing under the old CBA. I'm a federal employee and every time our CBA expires we continue to work under the old one until a new one is negotiated.

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12-12-2012, 08:58 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by HawksFan74 View Post
Yah, I've been paying attention. According to many it's all Fehr's fault. Although neither side moved and everybody is an expert here on Bettman's/Fehr's motivations for everything.

What's so hard about cutting contracts lengths down the middle. They are both hard headed.
Its simple the NHLPA requested this meeting therefore it was up to them to make the first move. Since the PA decided to maintain the status qoue, the league saw no reason to move. Had the PA opened with a slightly better proposal maybe the owners would have responded in kind, but anyone who was expecting the owners to give more "just because" after last week was fooling themselves. For the record I would also be lambasting the owners for wasting everyones time if they were the ones who called the meeting and brought nothing new to the table.

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12-12-2012, 08:58 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by JMiller View Post
I don't see either side blinking until the entire season is on the line. What is missing another dozen games at this point?
12 games is 15% of the season, which translates to only about $300m for the players. Nothing like "spending" $300m to save contract rights for10% of the PA.

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12-12-2012, 08:58 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
The players have constantly said "we're willing to play".

When they say they are willing to play, it means they are willing to play under the same rules as the last CBA.
But that's not what they proposed...

August:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle4480713/
Quote:
The players proposed breaking the link in the current collective agreement, which expires Sept. 15, between HRR and player salaries. Rather than tying club payrolls directly to revenue, in which they rise at the same rate as revenue, the players offered to cap their salary increases if league revenue continues to rise at same rate it has since the lockout, which is an average of 7 per cent.

If the revenue rises more than 10 per cent in a year, the amount above that would be subject to the revenue split in the current agreement, which gives the players 57 per cent of HRR.

In the first year of the agreement, the players' salaries will rise 2 per cent, in the second year the increase is 4 per cent and it goes to 6 per cent in the third year. The proposal also calls for a players' option for a fourth year in which the system reverts to the present agreement and its 57-per-cent player share of HRR.
October:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle4622583/
Quote:
Proposal 1

Players would receive a set revenue figure for a small raise in Years 1, 2 and 3 but would have their salary frozen at the Year 3 number until their share hit 50 per cent. If league revenues increased at 5 per cent a season, the players would receive a share of 55.4 per cent in Year 1 and 50 per cent in Year 5.

Proposal 2

Players would receive just 24.7 per cent of new revenues each season as their share of league revenues shrunk over time to 50 per cent. If league revenues increased at 5 per cent a season, the players would receive 55.5 per cent in Year 1 and 50 per cent in Year 5.

Proposal 3

Players propose here that 13 per cent of revenues would not count toward the players’ share or the salary cap and are instead used to pay existing contracts. The remaining 87 per cent is then distributed among players as part of a 50-50 sharing of that remaining revenue. The NHLPA indicated this option would involve both sides receiving a 50-per-cent share by Year 5 but that was disputed by the league in a press release
November
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409992
Quote:
Players' Share: A major move in the owners' direction by removing guarantees or fixed targets for Players' share.

Honouring Players' Contracts/Transition payments: Players' Share will equal 50 percent of HRR plus fixed payments in the first four years to partially honour player contracts and ease the transition to 50/50:

2012-13 - $182M
2013-14 - $128M
2014-15 - $72M
2015-16 - $11M

Total $393 M

*The owners had previously proposed $211M

Long-term back-diving contracts – Cap benefit recapture rule so clubs no longer benefit from front-loading contracts (move in the owners' direction)

Contracts in the minors – Clubs take a cap hit on contracts in the minors over $1M (move in the owners' direction)

Four Recall Rule – Unlimited recalls after regular season (move in the owners' direction)

Salary Arbitration – Elimination of walk-away from arbitrator's decision, but clubs can still "walk-away" by not qualifying a player

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Old
12-12-2012, 08:59 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by HawksFan74 View Post
Yah, I've been paying attention. According to many it's all Fehr's fault. Although neither side moved and everybody is an expert here on Bettman's/Fehr's motivations for everything.

What's so hard about cutting contracts lengths down the middle. They are both hard headed.
Fehr thinks the longer he stalls this, the better the offers will get for the players. Calling on mediators who provide absolutely no solution and do not help move the process along are a waste of time.

Fehr also took his sweet time to kick start negotiations with the NHL. His previous proposals that guaranteed the players over $1.8 billion was another waste of time. He made the same proposal disguised different on numerous occasions. Hence, Fehr wasting time.

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12-12-2012, 09:01 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by enviro61 View Post
and the fact that the players were locked out and did not go on strike indicates they were willing to continue playing under the old CBA. I'm a federal employee and every time our CBA expires we continue to work under the old one until a new one is negotiated.
I guess you have no playoffs in your federal job. Going on strike before the playoffs would cause massive losses for the owners, both monetarily and PR wise.

That's why we have lockouts. Can't strike if you're locked out.

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12-12-2012, 09:01 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
Or severely over attributed.
Well if you feel the sport which is already a distant 4th in most US markets and really a niche sport amongst diehard fans will be fine and dandy, enjoy the little cloud you're living on. Ever single casual fan is gone at this point. They don't care. Lot of longtime fans are pissed off and aren't going to games anymore. This entire process is a joke and fehr is handling it like its a dick measuring match. He cannot win, ever. Even if he's dirk diggler.

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12-12-2012, 09:03 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Fehr thinks the longer he stalls this, the better the offers will get for the players. Calling on mediators who provide absolutely no solution and do not help move the process along are a waste of time.

Fehr also took his sweet time to kick start negotiations with the NHL. His previous proposals that guaranteed the players over $1.8 billion was another waste of time. He made the same proposal disguised different on numerous occasions. Hence, Fehr wasting time.
... Which is why I don't understand the owners allowing him to keep stalling. Everyone knows this thing is going to be dragged out until the drop-dead date. People have been saying it for months. Gary Bettman has the power to impose a drop-dead date whenever he so desires. Why hasn't he done so yet? Why are we talking about mid-January now?

If Bettman had done what was rumoured and set December 15 as the cut-off, we'd have a deal - or close to it - by now. There is no reason not to set as early a date to wipe out the season as possible. None.

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12-12-2012, 09:03 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HawksFan74 View Post
Yah, I've been paying attention. According to many it's all Fehr's fault. Although neither side moved and everybody is an expert here on Bettman's/Fehr's motivations for everything.

What's so hard about cutting contracts lengths down the middle. They are both hard headed.
Have you ever heard of this thing called insurance? There is a reason for the 5 year max on contracts and that is because that is all insurance companies are now insuring. The league per year spends 100 million on insurance overage (above what the normal premiums are).

Crosbys contract alone for the life of it is about 100 million in insurance overage.

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Old
12-12-2012, 09:03 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by enviro61 View Post
and the fact that the players were locked out and did not go on strike indicates they were willing to continue playing under the old CBA. I'm a federal employee and every time our CBA expires we continue to work under the old one until a new one is negotiated.
Why would the players go on strike under the previous CBA?

They made out like bandits... but still they never proposed the previous CBA.

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12-12-2012, 09:03 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by surixon View Post
Its simple the NHLPA requested this meeting therefore it was up to them to make the first move. Since the PA decided to maintain the status qoue, the league saw no reason to move. Had the PA opened with a slightly better proposal maybe the owners would have responded in kind, but anyone who was expecting the owners to give more "just because" after last week was fooling themselves. For the record I would also be lambasting the owners for wasting everyones time if they were the ones who called the meeting and brought nothing new to the table.
Do you really have any idea what happened today based on all the conflicting reports? You guys hang on every tweet like it's gospel. Nothing wrong with the PA getting together asking for mediation. I wasn't aware the PA had to come prepared with a better offer.

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12-12-2012, 09:05 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
Have you ever heard of this thing called insurance? There is a reason for the 5 year max on contracts and that is because that is all insurance companies are now insuring. The league per year spends 100 million on insurance overage (above what the normal premiums are).

Crosbys contract alone for the life of it is about 100 million in insurance overage.
Yeah, I heard their excuse for needing the contract limits. I don't think 1 year not insured on a contract is going to BK a team. Are the 7 year own UFA's insured? Nope! Does the insurance company care if it's a team's own UFA or not? I don't really get that part.


Last edited by HawksFan74: 12-12-2012 at 09:10 PM.
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12-12-2012, 09:06 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Langdon Alger View Post
... Which is why I don't understand the owners allowing him to keep stalling. Everyone knows this thing is going to be dragged out until the drop-dead date. People have been saying it for months. Gary Bettman has the power to impose a drop-dead date whenever he so desires. Why hasn't he done so yet? Why are we talking about mid-January now?

If Bettman had done what was rumoured and set December 15 as the cut-off, we'd have a deal - or close to it - by now. There is no reason not to set as early a date to wipe out the season as possible. None.
With negotiations of this magnitude, you can't set a drop dead date. So what if they are making progress on December 14 and talks stall on the 15th and there is no deal when the 16th comes? You can't operate in that manner. You keep plugging away until a deal is done.

If it comes beyond the point of saving the season, they'll know. Fehr has to set his own drop dead date in realizing how long he can pull this crap before the players lose another year's worth of pay. They need to get back on the ice by early-mid January to salvage a season that means anything. Problem is that Fehr and the players are too bullheaded and pride themselves over their stubbornness.

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12-12-2012, 09:07 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
Why would the players go on strike under the previous CBA?

They made out like bandits... but still they never proposed the previous CBA.
People like to say the players would have went on strike because FEHR.

But I think it's rather unlikely.

And if they did, I don't imagine it would last long.

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12-12-2012, 09:07 PM
  #120
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But that's not what they proposed...
You are confusing the NHLPA proposals with what they have said they are willing to do.

Allan Walsh tweeted "The NHLPA has informed the NHL that players are willing to play and continue to negotiate if an agreement isn’t reached by Sept. 15th.". Donald Fehr has said "why are we not playing? It wasn’t a decision the players made".

If the players are against a lockout and wanted to play through negotiations, the only reasonable conclusion is that they wanted to operate under the old CBA.

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12-12-2012, 09:09 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
But that's not what they proposed...
They've proposed playing under the current CBA before the playoffs even ended.

http://seattletimes.com/html/othersp...70_digs07.html

Quote:
"There's no law that says you have to lock out," Fehr said. "If both parties are both really interested in trying to reach an agreement, and if we both really care what the people watching hockey games think, then we ought to be doing everything we can to avoid that eventuality."

Fehr already has proposed having talks continue beyond the deadline and having the season open without disruption under the current system.
This was back in august and he's mentioned it multiple times before then as well.

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12-12-2012, 09:09 PM
  #122
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the most frustrating part of all this is the fact that if they do settle on a deal to save the season, they are gonna prolly keep pushing it all the way to the brink. which essentially makes anything said/done right now irrelevant.

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12-12-2012, 09:09 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
With negotiations of this magnitude, you can't set a drop dead date. So what if they are making progress on December 14 and talks stall on the 15th and there is no deal when the 16th comes? You can't operate in that manner. You keep plugging away until a deal is done.

If it comes beyond the point of saving the season, they'll know. Fehr has to set his own drop dead date in realizing how long he can pull this crap before the players lose another year's worth of pay. They need to get back on the ice by early-mid January to salvage a season that means anything. Problem is that Fehr and the players are too bullheaded and pride themselves over their stubbornness.
I think it goes like this;

Bettman has a date in mind to get a deal done,
The NHL and PA will sign for some sort of compromise on that date.

Or, Bettman and the NHL are ready to die on the hill.
And Fehr will kill them.

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12-12-2012, 09:10 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
I guess you have no playoffs in your federal job. Going on strike before the playoffs would cause massive losses for the owners, both monetarily and PR wise.

That's why we have lockouts. Can't strike if you're locked out.
Not to mention that if the players are still receiving money, what motivation do they have for striking a new deal? Owners would just keep getting bent over while the NHLPA delayed and delayed...oh wait. Guess it's not that different still.

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12-12-2012, 09:11 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by nightfighter View Post
They've proposed playing under the current CBA before the playoffs even ended.

http://seattletimes.com/html/othersp...70_digs07.html



This was back in august and he's mentioned it multiple times before then as well.
And he knew early on that wasn't an option for the league. Why would Bettman take the risk and give the advantage to Fehr and the players who could simply stage a walkout and strike during an active season with no CBA in hand? That would be foolish. Fehr knows this. The league was not going to do that under any condition, and they made that known when it was proposed.

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