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Whose grand idea was this? Owners call PA and want PA to make an offer? (not a rant)

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02-19-2005, 10:53 PM
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GKJ
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Whose grand idea was this? Owners call PA and want PA to make an offer? (not a rant)

Who the hell thought up the idea that the owners would invite the PA to a meeting and then expect the PA to make an offer? They couldn't have done this just because Gretzky and Lemieux wanted to watch a barganing session.

If you're calling the meeting, that should mean you have an offer to make. Don't call a meeting and then want the other side to bring something to the table.

If I were to have a party for a bunch of people, I wouldn't expect them to bring the beer.


That was just stupid. Talk about a PR nightmare. Don't insult the diehard fans by canceling the season and then 4 days later try and uncancel it and fail to do it. Now not only are fans either apathetic or pissed off, now hockey the die hard fans are just completely embarassed! I know I am. And it seems that neither side really cares.


I have a few theories here. One of them is that someone is blowing smoke up our collective you-know-whats, wheather its the media or the people involved wanting the pressure to be taken off of them.


Another one is that this really isn't about a cap, it's about something else. Things like the ELS and arbitration were also HUGE issues. It wouldn't shock me that the small gap on a salary cap is holding up because of the arbitration system.


Most people know I'm pro-PA here, and whether or not your for the owners or players, it should soon become common knowledge that the hardline owners aren't going to let an acceptable offer to be made from the owners to the players, because then they won't have any say in it, whereas a players offer needs those guys (Wirtz, Jacobs, Karmanos and whoever else to sign off on it, or 25 owners) to sign off on it.

I honestly beleive that an offer that only needed a simple majority would have been ratified. Not by much, but enough.

And I think that's where the problem lies, along with Goodenow and his more than faulty-leadership. The longer the owners wait to break the union, the less chance there is. I read Bob McKenzie's article and he is 100% correct. The longer this goes, it only makes Goodenow look better and not worse in the eyes of the players. He can now tell the players that the owners were not taking the players seriously, as much as some players probably loathe Goodenow, now.

I have said that Bettman is the one making this worse, but with the recent events, while not making them any better, I see him more as a mouthpiece for the hardline owners. I think Bettman, himself, is willing to accept the $45M cap, and so is Goodenow. But Bettman is not in it for himself like Goodenow has seemed to become.


The pressure will really start to get to the owners in the spring time to get a deal done, so they can persue an offseason where they can market, sell season tickets, sponsorships. That's going to be where the big money owners are going to have to speak up and have a voice in this. The owners in Toronto, Philly, New York, Detroit, Colorado, LA, Vancouver, Minnesota, where they can make money are not just going to sit around and wait for the owners they don't really want to partner with. That's why I don't think next season will be lost.


It's time for the players though to give up the revenue sharing. I think that's where things start to really get moving, because I think the owners would give a little in arbitration if that were the case.


If the players are really antsy about getting this deal done, they have to keep coming out in the media and keep coming out and speaking their minds.

A lot of people are pessimistic about the prospects for next season, replacement players, all kinds things. I think I can confidently say that I can see signs that are pointing that this can be done in order to save next season.

There was too much going on for nothing to be brewing here. Between the rumor of ESPN saying they were going to cut ties with the NHL, to the Finnish media outlet that players were told to come back to North America (including direct quotes from NHL players). And the multitude of media outlets in North America (just about everyone except TSN) all had their stories straight about what exactly was going on, to Mike Modano blasting Goodenow in the press, I truly beleive that this is closer to the end than most people think, even though this season isn't all that worth saving (although I would be thrilled).

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02-19-2005, 10:57 PM
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The owners didn't call the PA to the meeting, no matter what the media reports say.

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02-19-2005, 10:58 PM
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Sounds like a rant to me....

Kidding.

Owners didnt call the PA... I guarantee you that. Steve Yzerman came crawling to Gary Bettman's door in the snow begging for cornbread.

The PA is posturing on some of the mundane details of this

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02-19-2005, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greschner4
The owners didn't call the PA to the meeting, no matter what the media reports say.
Is that why both Daly and Saskin said that that's exactly what happened?



On television no less. Gretzky and Lemieux didn't sit around and hope the players happen to call them to come to a meeting. They were the driving force behind this.

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02-19-2005, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greschner4
The owners didn't call the PA to the meeting, no matter what the media reports say.
Then what the hell was the meeting for anyway? There was no new proposals and to make it worse the NHL put in ever harsher conditions for the PA to abide by. DoubleUTeeEef? Really, did both sides think that Mario and Gretzky were magicans and by their look and presence they would magically make a deal both sides would agree upon? This meeting was complete bluff and in my opinion just something that both sides can say to media of how even though they cancelled the season they still heart the fans and are working their butts off to appease. Mother*******.

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02-19-2005, 11:03 PM
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All I can say is The hockey guys(PA) have always thought they were special, a little different than the other pro athletes...and for the most part I always kinda agreed...until now, they just don't get it, they are hurting themselves because they are trying to stand on principle...guys the deal only gets worse, this is where Goodenow had failed them and they are now failing themselves, it's business, take the 42.5M abd thank your lucky stars...but no they will sit out until whenever and get a 25-30M cap for what? Principle, that's right...

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02-19-2005, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by futurcorerock
Owners didnt call the PA... I guarantee you that. Steve Yzerman came crawling to Gary Bettman's door in the snow begging for cornbread.
Steve Yzerman can crawl all he wants. If Bettman knew nothing was going to be accomplished, there was no reason for this.

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02-19-2005, 11:06 PM
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I really don't think the ELS is what would hold this up. Even the Pa was making concessions there.

IMo this has to do with a couple things beyond the cap. Arbitration is probably a biggie, but again the PA was willing to play with Arbitration somewhat.

My guess? The league might have tried to get the role-back in addition to the Cap. They may also have tried to negotiate an individual player cap. Maximum contract length might also have come up.

There are LOTs of issues that have been in the background have barely been negotitated at this point.

What I hate is the whole attitude of "no more negotiations". That is SOOOO wrong. Even if this season is toast, how about starting NOW so you can be done in plenty of time for NEXT year?

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02-19-2005, 11:07 PM
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G** Dammit!!! I have been pessimistic and believed that there would not be a 2004-2005 season since the beginning of last season. When Wayne and Mario got this meeting together, I actually believed the season was at hand.

**** the NHL and NHLPA!!!!! Rot in hell forever!!! :mad:

Thank you Wayne and Mario. I appreciate what you attempted to do.

It just shows you how bad things are when "The Great One" and "Super Mario" can't get anyone to listen.

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02-19-2005, 11:17 PM
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I shouldn't say give up revenue sharing, but I think they might be persuing too much of it.

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02-19-2005, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
Steve Yzerman can crawl all he wants. If Bettman knew nothing was going to be accomplished, there was no reason for this.
I honestly dont think Gary was at fault for this. I think the renegade owners finally spoke up and decided to wreck this party. I wouldnt be surprised if Saskin and Linden were pissed off because of this fact, rather than some crazy bargain that they were thrown. This also shows why Gretzky would be visibly frustrated by all this, him being an owner all.

"Ah Jesus Bill, will you give it a rest?"

"hoobadidoobadydoo"

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02-20-2005, 02:04 AM
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In response to gkj,

If I were to have a party for a bunch of people, I wouldn't expect them to bring the beer.
You never heard of "BYOB" ?

That was just stupid. Talk about a PR nightmare. Don't insult the diehard fans by canceling the season and then 4 days later try and uncancel it and fail to do it. Now not only are fans either apathetic or pissed off, now hockey the die hard fans are just completely embarassed! I know I am. And it seems that neither side really cares.
Totally agree. This is embarassing and stupid. What a gong show this is turning into.

I have a few theories here. One of them is that someone is blowing smoke up our collective you-know-whats, wheather its the media or the people involved wanting the pressure to be taken off of them.
I don't think its any real big conspiracy theory here. As I said in another thread, each side thought they had their opponent in choke hold, and thought the other side would fold. Evidently, both sides were wrong and the result turned into a circus.

Another one is that this really isn't about a cap, it's about something else. Things like the ELS and arbitration were also HUGE issues. It wouldn't shock me that the small gap on a salary cap is holding up because of the arbitration system.
It seems like the league is at fault on this one. Both sides had an agreement in principal on things like arbitration and FA status, but the league thought it would be a bright idea to start kicking the PA when they were already down, and that really blew up in their face.

The league had the huge lead and leverage going into friday, but lost alot of leverage and respect from me after today's events.

Most people know I'm pro-PA here, and whether or not your for the owners or players, it should soon become common knowledge that the hardline owners aren't going to let an acceptable offer to be made from the owners to the players, because then they won't have any say in it, whereas a players offer needs those guys (Wirtz, Jacobs, Karmanos and whoever else to sign off on it, or 25 owners) to sign off on it.
Disagree here. Yes, there are a few (Wirtz, Jacobs ect) that want nothing more then the break the union, but I firmly believe that Gary Bettman is doing whats best for the league. Gary Bettman has his own interests in getting things down as best and as efficiently as possible - his career depends on it. I'm more inclined to believe that Gary Bettman is fighting for those like Cal Nicholas, Harley Hotchkiss and Wayne Gretzky in doing whats best for the game.

And I think that's where the problem lies, along with Goodenow and his more than faulty-leadership. The longer the owners wait to break the union, the less chance there is.
Disagree as well. The players are starting to split like the owners in 1994. Its already been reported by Darryl Sutter that many players have already gone to the Flames GM seeking advice about their careers and what to do. If and when the league goes to replacement players (which I think they will) I'll bet more then half the players in the league cross the line to the owners - including the majority of the Calgary Flames.

A little OT, but judging by comments made by Don Meehan, it seems like the league has a huge bargainaing chip when it comes to replacement players. Possibly the most powerful man to turn this lockout around (no, not Gretz or Mario) Meehan has already been quoted to be semi pro-owner - something that should make Bob Goodenow piss his pants. Representing some of the best players in the league, being the most powerful agent within the PA and being as well connected as he is, I think in the end, it will be him getting the settlement; a man who is part of the PA, but has league-interests at heart.

I read Bob McKenzie's article and he is 100% correct. The longer this goes, it only makes Goodenow look better and not worse in the eyes of the players.
Which article is this? If its before Friday, I don't think Bettman's ever looked better. He was shining like a bright star Wend morning, but IMO lost alot of lust today.

Goodenow looked like a beaten man soon to be looking for a new job Wend. As of now, nothings changed. He over-promised and under-delivered. He'll be gone when the lockout is over.

The pressure will really start to get to the owners in the spring time to get a deal done, so they can persue an offseason where they can market, sell season tickets, sponsorships.
The pressure is on both sides. If there is linkage (and likely will now that the game's gotten another black eye) the PA will get a double kick in the family jewels.

That's going to be where the big money owners are going to have to speak up and have a voice in this. The owners in Toronto, Philly, New York, Detroit, Colorado, LA, Vancouver, Minnesota, where they can make money are not just going to sit around and wait for the owners they don't really want to partner with.
Uhhh... Bettman still has 75% veto power.

If the players are really antsy about getting this deal done, they have to keep coming out in the media and keep coming out and speaking their minds.
The more they talk, the stupider they look. While Bettman and the league apologize to the fans, and recognize they are ruining the game, Goodenow and the players sit around blaming the league and ONLY the league, going on and on about the 24% like they have nothing else.

A lot of people are pessimistic about the prospects for next season, replacement players, all kinds things.
Actually, I'm optimistic for replacement players. I believe this will end up like the NFL.

I think I can confidently say that I can see signs that are pointing that this can be done in order to save next season.
On what basis? It seems to me that both sides are more polar then they were before, as the league has dropped their offer from 42.5 million to a reported 38 million today. Their offer is only dropping lower and lower as the revenue takes more and more of a hit. The best chance for anything to happen was Tues night, and the PA screwed the pooch on that one.

Yes the owners lie. Undoubtedly. 31 million was obviously not their max; their breaking point was 42.5 million. Any moron could have seen that - except for Goodenow, who was gambling on a false hope that the owners were still lying, and rolled the dice on his career - and lost.

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