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Lockout XXIX: Your questions have become more redundant than the Highlander movies

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Old
12-14-2012, 08:00 AM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
Right, but my point is once the term is fixed the difference between 7 and 8 years is completely negligible...
If the difference between 7 and 8 years is "completely" negligible then the difference between 7 and 9 and almost completely negligible then the difference between 7 and 10 are not worth fighting over either.
As you could go the other way....7 to 6 to 5....


The thing is every point matters, everything is a win and a lose. Every point earns a counter point. If the NHL and NHLPA negotiated the way you feel about numbers then we would not have an NHL.


Last edited by heartsabres*: 12-14-2012 at 08:46 AM.
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12-14-2012, 08:04 AM
  #102
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Question - when contracts are signed for longer than the 7 years which are insurable, who pays for the additional insurance? Does it come out of the owner's share in general or does it come out of the pocket of the organization that signed the contract?

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12-14-2012, 08:05 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by FanSince2012 View Post
You continue to make this point (in bold) as if it's a certainty when in fact, you have no crystal ball better than anyone elses.
I have no crystal ball but give us scenarios where the League comes out better off?

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Old
12-14-2012, 08:38 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
What it comes down to for me is:

Waiting costs players money they can't afford to lose.

Waiting may or may not cost owners money - and they can afford to lose it.


Again, if you knew the Proskauer-Rose playbook is to stall, then surely you don't oblige the league by doing so.

So both sides are dragging out the process. IMO now that they have given up many of their main sources of revenue the owners are just enjoying salary savings. Since they have already lost 25% of the sponsorship money I would bet that savings on lost player salary balances out.

Since the season will not be less than 48 games, and the league share of sponsorship only goes down to 50% if the games played is below 41, not only would the NHL not be forfeiting that 25%, but the longer it waits for the supposedly 'inevitable' player capitulation the more they save.

It's on Fehr to make the first move here - because he has a duty to minimize the losses incurred by his membership. If he had just moved all his timings up by 1-2 months, then I would say he was playing a good gameplan. But now, he's just being stubborn AND it's to the detriment of the players.

Since there is no mechanism in the NHLPA's OWN LAST OFFER to recoup lost salary, no magical deal is going to come that is 'better'. I think both sides have stalled and postured enough to make this look like 'a good fight'. The difference is that the NHL is saving money here as time goes by while the players are losing it - that's on the NHLPA leadership to recognize.

Why would the owners be in a hurry now, especially when the feeling is that a 48 game schedule will happen eventually? Better to just keep cutting your costs. Is that moral? No. But as with almost all of the owner's actions in this lockout, at least you can understand a good portion of it using simple cost-benefit.
Good post, some very good points.

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Old
12-14-2012, 08:42 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
Well, i say have at it then, and bid them Good Luck.


They won't do it until the NHL cancels the season though.



Quote:
Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
Right but you still start at the same numbers...

As my demo with Weber's term shows. Right now Weber's cap hit is $7.8 mil over the 14 years. Well the new CBA certainly wont have 14 year terms with the crazy variance of 50% drops every couple of years....

If you run the similar numbers over the first 7 years less 12% or so:
= $86 mil * 12% = $10.32 mil... $86 mil - $10.32 mil = $75.68
= $10.81 cap hit

@ 8 years = $80.96 (after 12% off)/8 = $10.12 mil cap hit

There's a difference but if the total cap hit across the NHL changes $1 mil/player for 40 players in the scheme of things that's a $40 mil cap difference league wide, which is no where near enough to destroy the middle class as some NHLers feel.

The negotiating of longer contracts for mid tier players cannot be that affect as I strongly doubt they are going into negotiations asking for 10 year terms at $2 mil...





But could those same mid-tier players have asked for 8 years? 7 years? 6 years? Yes, they could have. However, the current NHL proposal has a max 5 UFA years. So those guys can't even start at 8, 7, 6. It makes a massive difference in what they could potentially earn. Those are the mid-tier guys, not even the high end ones.



If going by numbers, let's place the value of 1 year in contract term to be the equivalent of 1m dollars per year for the remainder of said contract. So if player X stood to make 4m per over 8 years (potentially), the effect of moving down from 8 to 7 years should be 5m over 7 years. Correct? No variance in play, just raw numbers. In the proposed CBA, this doesn't even come up because the term limit is 5 years for UFAs. So to get to 5m, the max length a player can get on term is 4 years. Automatically they lose negotiating power based on term as well as future security.



So the next question becomes: Why not just bump up the initial value from 4m to 5m in the hypothetical? Answer: The overall cap. Skewing contract values to be higher for the mid-term players throws off the overall monies you can doll out to the rest of your high-end and lower-tier players. So player agents will be working against two caveats to get their players dollar value = not good for them.









For your Weber example, instead of thinking of it as a static 7.8m over 14 years (with variance possibilities), think of it as what cap-hit would he need to compensate for losing out on 7 years of contract term? If we use the example above, where 1m per year equates to a single term year lost, then he should be getting paid 14.8m per over 7 years to even it out. That's the effect of the new proposed CBA... Is the money really the same there?

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Old
12-14-2012, 08:46 AM
  #106
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Regarding contract length, is anybody aware what the other major sports leagues have in place for contract restrictions?

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12-14-2012, 08:49 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Nailor Hopberle View Post
Regarding contract length, is anybody aware what the other major sports leagues have in place for contract restrictions?
NBA
The maximum amount of money a player can sign for is contingent on the number of years that player has played and the total of the salary cap. The maximum salary of a player with 6 or fewer years of experience is either $9,000,000 or 25% of the total salary cap (201011: $14,511,000), whichever is greater. For a player with 79 years of experience, the maximum is $11,000,000 or 30% of the cap (201011: $17,413,200), and for a player with 10+ years of experience, the maximum is $14,000,000 or 35% of the cap (20102011: $20,315,400)

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12-14-2012, 08:59 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
NBA
The maximum amount of money a player can sign for is contingent on the number of years that player has played and the total of the salary cap. The maximum salary of a player with 6 or fewer years of experience is either $9,000,000 or 25% of the total salary cap (201011: $14,511,000), whichever is greater. For a player with 79 years of experience, the maximum is $11,000,000 or 30% of the cap (201011: $17,413,200), and for a player with 10+ years of experience, the maximum is $14,000,000 or 35% of the cap (20102011: $20,315,400)
I should clarify, I'm more interested in restrictions in contract years as opposed to salary restrictions. The NHL is shooting for a maximum of 5 years for contracts, how does that compare to what the other leagues have in place?

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Old
12-14-2012, 09:06 AM
  #109
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Mark Spector Sports ‏@SportsnetSpec

Conference call scheduled between #NHL and #NHLPA today. Not involving mediator.

https://twitter.com/SportsnetSpec/st...97541048328192

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12-14-2012, 09:07 AM
  #110
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The fact that nobody knows what's going on, even the media, suggests that we should just wait and see what happens. And hope.

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12-14-2012, 09:07 AM
  #111
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@SportsnetSpec: Conference call scheduled between #NHL and #NHLPA today. Not involving mediator.

https://twitter.com/sportsnetspec/st...97541048328192

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12-14-2012, 09:07 AM
  #112
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thank goodness the mediation is gone for now. Don't return

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Old
12-14-2012, 09:09 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Crows View Post
@SportsnetSpec: Conference call scheduled between #NHL and #NHLPA today. Not involving mediator.

https://twitter.com/sportsnetspec/st...97541048328192
After a ton of internal meetings by the PA, are they going to tell the NHL that they are decertifying?

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12-14-2012, 09:10 AM
  #114
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This is an odd part of the negotiation. Both sides aren't really attacking each other through the media.

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12-14-2012, 09:11 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Mattiboy13 View Post
After a ton of internal meetings by the PA, are they going to tell the NHL that they are decertifying?
I hope not. Maybe that's what jamal mayers was insinuating by his tweet.

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12-14-2012, 09:14 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Crows View Post
I hope not. Maybe that's what jamal mayers was insinuating by his tweet.
What did he tweet? Either he deleted it or I am a moron and can't find it.

EDIT: Nerrmind I found it.

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12-14-2012, 09:19 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crows View Post
@SportsnetSpec: Conference call scheduled between #NHL and #NHLPA today. Not involving mediator.

https://twitter.com/sportsnetspec/st...97541048328192

I wonder when we'll get to the point when the NHL and NHLPA negotiate via text message.

"Steve, r u wanting 2 meet?"
"IDK Bill, r u wanting to compromise?"
"No, r u?"
"Lol, no Bill."
"K ttyl."
"l8r Bill."

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Old
12-14-2012, 09:22 AM
  #118
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The best thing that can happen is that there's no media coverage and all of a sudden we just hear of a joint press-conference. If there's a joint presser, then it's a deal.

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12-14-2012, 09:25 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Crows View Post
This is an odd part of the negotiation. Both sides aren't really attacking each other through the media.
Colin Wilson obviously didn't get the memo.

Link: http://www.winnipegsun.com/2012/12/1...-bettman-phony

I'm running out of ways to describe the players' inability to navigate this entire negotiation process.

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Old
12-14-2012, 09:30 AM
  #120
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I hope not. Maybe that's what jamal mayers was insinuating by his tweet.
HaHa.......that would be hilarious.............

Because during his last interview Mayers' partial answer to a question contained this phrase.........."this is isn't the NBA." And then he links an NBA article in a Tweet.

There was a link to that vid in one of these threads.

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Old
12-14-2012, 09:31 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
Colin Wilson obviously didn't get the memo.

Link: http://www.winnipegsun.com/2012/12/1...-bettman-phony

I'm running out of ways to describe the players' inability to navigate this entire negotiation process.
Part of me would love it if Bettman or Daly trashed a player in the media. "Chris Campoli? What a hack. He's a loser that should be lucky he even played in the NHL for any amount of time. He's ruing the quality of the game for the fans. And Hainsey? How much money does 0 goals cost these days?"

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12-14-2012, 09:34 AM
  #122
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Part of me would love it if Bettman or Daly trashed a player in the media. "Chris Campoli? What a hack. He's a loser that should be lucky he even played in the NHL for any amount of time. He's ruing the quality of the game for the fans. And Hainsey? How much money does 0 goals cost these days?"
There are better ways of disarming the players and showing them to be who they really are. I think Bettman did a good job at the last PC when he asked, "If we're so close why do we need mediation?" They'll do things in their own way. No worries there...

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12-14-2012, 09:37 AM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
The best thing that can happen is that there's no media coverage and all of a sudden we just hear of a joint press-conference. If there's a joint presser, then it's a deal.
In this day and age, that is never going to happen.

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Old
12-14-2012, 09:38 AM
  #124
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https://twitter.com/KatieStrangESPN/...10584788529152

Katie Strang ‏@KatieStrangESPN
#CBA NHL and NHLPA to have a conference call later today. Nothing further scheduled beyond that at this point

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Old
12-14-2012, 09:39 AM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
The best thing that can happen is that there's no media coverage and all of a sudden we just hear of a joint press-conference. If there's a joint presser, then it's a deal.
I don't know if the conference call that was mentioned is with media (that is, a press conference) or simply a conference call between the two sides (that is, meeting on the phone rather than in person).

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