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NHLPA exec board asks players to empower PA dissolution; NHL files w/Fed court+NLRB

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12-15-2012, 04:56 PM
  #326
Fugu
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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
The court would need to rule on whether these contracts signed under a CBA would be enforceable if there is no union or CBA.

If the NHL can legally void all contracts, it would only be applicable to a dissolved union and no CBA in place. If the union were to recertify and they continue to negotiate a CBA, everything would apply as they do now (teams will still own players rights, etc). The only way contracts would have to be renegotiated is if the league voids the contracts, lifts the lockout and the players choose to continue as a trade association - but I don't see that as a likely option for the players if it comes to that, unless the stars don't really care about the little guy and are willing to throw him under the bus to get more money at his expense.

I think the league is trying, and will fail, to use labor laws to stretch what antitrust and contract law protect.

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12-15-2012, 04:56 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Please tell us what that standard is then; and why the NHL appears to be saying that's what the PA is doing.
Threatening a DOI as a means to artificially create anti-trust cases. Thats seems pretty "bad faith" to me.

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12-15-2012, 04:58 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
And I would argue that while you seem to know a lot of colorful military terms, that doesn't change the fact that they aren't even in the same zip code, legally, as "bad faith." Your substantive position and your negotiation strategy has nothing to do with it. The NHL could come out and demand a 10% salary cap and refuse to read any union proposals that didn't comply with that stipulation, and it wouldn't put them an inch closer to being in bad faith.

Would showing that the NHL is using the NBA's script, almost to the letter, indicate a bad faith negotiation... in other words, making it look like they were engaging, but really only following a template until they got what they wanted? (I honestly don't know.)

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Threatening a DOI as a means to artificially create anti-trust cases. Thats seems pretty "bad faith" to me.

The suits that the NBA and NFL players filed were not ruled as illegal nor were they blocked by the 8th Circuit court that upheld those league's rights to hold their lockout. The court specifically left that portion alone to be ruled on in the court that would hear the suits. It simply never got that far.

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12-15-2012, 05:01 PM
  #329
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Please tell us what that standard is then; and why the NHL appears to be saying that's what the PA is doing.
The standard is basically fraud. It's hard to nail down in a sentence because it's a catch-all for anything so totally dishonest you might do as to completely negate the legitimacy of the negotiation. You essentially have to be lying to the other side, maybe spying on them and basing your negotiations off of stolen documents from their camp, something along those lines. It has nothing to do with picking a position that might be unfair. The fact that people seem to think that their substantive position has something to do with it is completely out of left field.

And the NHL never said the PA is negotiating in bad faith - quite the opposite. The NHL has said that the union doesn't have any intention to remain decertified. Completely different thing.

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12-15-2012, 05:03 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Would showing that the NHL is using the NBA's script, almost to the letter, indicate a bad faith negotiation... in other words, making it look like they were engaging, but really only following a template until they got what they wanted? (I honestly don't know.)
Absolutely not. Quite the opposite. If they could be shown to be following the script of another league's good faith negotiation, that would tend to show good faith.

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12-15-2012, 05:06 PM
  #331
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This is truly interesting to watch play out.

I believe Fehr's strategy is to force the NHL to increase their offer significantly. I truly believe permanent dissolution of the PA is not a result the players and the NHLPA actually desire.

This is a fascinating chess game.

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12-15-2012, 05:07 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Absolutely not. Quite the opposite. If they could be shown to be following the script of another league's good faith negotiation, that would tend to show good faith.

One must accept the first claim to be true in order to extend it.


That's some fancy footwork there though, haseoke. I'm impressed.

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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
The standard is basically fraud. It's hard to nail down in a sentence because it's a catch-all for anything so totally dishonest you might do as to completely negate the legitimacy of the negotiation. You essentially have to be lying to the other side, maybe spying on them and basing your negotiations off of stolen documents from their camp, something along those lines. It has nothing to do with picking a position that might be unfair. The fact that people seem to think that their substantive position has something to do with it is completely out of left field.

And the NHL never said the PA is negotiating in bad faith - quite the opposite. The NHL has said that the union doesn't have any intention to remain decertified. Completely different thing.
I believe their grievance about the expectation that the PA will file for DOI indicates they believe they are negotiating in bad faith, or did I misread that?

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12-15-2012, 05:08 PM
  #333
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we may as well go to a nuclear war at this point, let's void all contracts, because the HRR is going to plummet after the NHL cancels another season, this will essentially cause the NHL to sabotage itself, pittsburgh just got a new arena, imagine Malkin and Crosby as UFA's.

Imagine all the small and mid market teams that would have their stars poached

the league would essentially be turned into what we see in europe, league 1, and league 2.

both sides would be badly screwing themselves and that's fine with me

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12-15-2012, 05:08 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
The suits that the NBA and NFL players filed were not ruled as illegal nor were they blocked by the 8th Circuit court that upheld those league's rights to hold their lockout. The court specifically left that portion alone to be ruled on in the court that would hear the suits. It simply never got that far.
I'm just saying that the PA's actions appear to be fraudulent in nature, based on the tweets and Fehr's own intimations. I can't see how this wouldn't be considered "bad faith" tactics. The players have stated on numerous occasions that they are 100% behind their leadership. Fehr has stated that the union is in lockstep. Now suddenly leadership wants to abandon it's members/members approve of this? Seems quite fraudulent as an artificial means to CREATE an unlawful situation.

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12-15-2012, 05:08 PM
  #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Would showing that the NHL is using the NBA's script, almost to the letter, indicate a bad faith negotiation... in other words, making it look like they were engaging, but really only following a template until they got what they wanted? (I honestly don't know.)
You mean using a template that got a CBA signed for the NBA would prove that NHL isn't trying to get a CBA signed?

I have a hard time seeing how any of the parties here have acted in bad faith. The closest thing is NHLPA using (the threat of) disclaimer of interest to create leverage when they have no intention of actually dissolving. I suspect even that won't get NHL anywhere with the NLRB.

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12-15-2012, 05:10 PM
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Would showing that the NHL is using the NBA's script, almost to the letter, indicate a bad faith negotiation... in other words, making it look like they were engaging, but really only following a template until they got what they wanted? (I honestly don't know.)




The suits that the NBA and NFL players filed were not ruled as illegal nor were they blocked by the 8th Circuit court that upheld those league's rights to hold their lockout. The court specifically left that portion alone to be ruled on in the court that would hear the suits. It simply never got that far.
it's not really the NBA script, they agreed to a deal alot faster, the NHL has basically lost 3 months of the season, the NBA lost 7/8 weeks. incidentally the NBA and NBAPA were able to get a deal done after getting the egomaniacs out, namely Jeffrey Kesler, who is alot like Don Fehr

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12-15-2012, 05:12 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
One must accept the first claim to be true in order to extend it.


That's some fancy footwork there though, haseoke. I'm impressed.
Well, I assumed it because I've never heard anyone say the NBA operated in bad faith. But if you wanted to say they did, you'd again have to show something like:

- League refuses to meet for three months, doesn't read any offers or put any forward.
- League spies on the player's building, steals private negotiation documents, uses them to inform their negotiating position.
- League lies to the players to secure some kind of concession that can't be taken back (e.g., "if you write us a $100M check today, we'll agree to drop this demand on Tuesday," and then they cash the check but don't drop the demand).
- League otherwise did something to completely and utterly undermine the integrity of the process - like I said, it's a catch-all.

So yeah, if you think the NBA or the NHL did anything like that, you've got a case that they didn't negotiate in good faith. If you're just saying their negotiating position wasn't fair, you have absolutely no leg to stand on. That's the thing about the freedom to contract in America: you're allowed to take as intransigent and unfair a position as you want.

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12-15-2012, 05:12 PM
  #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaketheCannoli View Post
This is truly interesting to watch play out.

I believe Fehr's strategy is to force the NHL to increase their offer significantly. I truly believe permanent dissolution of the PA is not a result the players and the NHLPA actually desire.

This is a fascinating chess game.
If the owners do what they should do, they won't fold under the pressure and call the PA's bluff.

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12-15-2012, 05:14 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
You mean using a template that got a CBA signed for the NBA would prove that NHL isn't trying to get a CBA signed?

I have a hard time seeing how any of the parties here have acted in bad faith. The closest thing is NHLPA using (the threat of) disclaimer of interest to create leverage when they have no intention of actually dissolving. I suspect even that won't get NHL anywhere with the NLRB.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1308399

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12-15-2012, 05:14 PM
  #340
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This is what they call wrecking the truck to get the insurance money in order to make the truck payment.

Whether or not the players vote to agree to allow Fehr to file the DOI they are going to be hurting in the long run.

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12-15-2012, 05:16 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I believe their grievance about the expectation that the PA will file for DOI indicates they believe they are negotiating in bad faith, or did I misread that?
I don't know. They may have tossed it in there, just because well-paid lawyers toss everything and the kitchen sink into a complaint just in case. But I don't think anybody has any hope that it'll stick.

Like another guy said above me: there's a minimal, minimal chance that the NHLPA could be found to be negotiating in bad faith if they're effectively manipulating the law to gain leverage. Most people think that's their goal, and there's a small chance a court could find that to be in bad faith. It's important to note that the NHL doesn't need the "bad faith" claim to stick in order to get a court to agree that the PA is just decertifying for show. That's the real end game for them.

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12-15-2012, 05:21 PM
  #342
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I think the thread title should be changed. The NHLPA negotiating committee is only asking the NHLPA to vote for the authorization to file a disclaimer. The NHLPA isn't voting to dissolve the Union.

This is just another PR step for the NHLPA to whip the media into a frenzy and force the NHL back to the table. Fehr loves the courtroom more than the negotiating room anyways.

The disclaimer should have been done before the lockout if the NHLPA wanted a chance to win in court.
It seems to me that there is more proof now that collective bargaining no longer works for the players than there was in August.

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12-15-2012, 05:30 PM
  #343
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I think the league is trying, and will fail, to use labor laws to stretch what antitrust and contract law protect.
I can definitely see how the league is trying to protect itself in all areas. That much I understand. I don't understand nearly enough to know what kind of shot either side has if they see things through in court. I really do think all of this are pressure points to get a deal done but if these tactics don't get both sides to meet middle ground on the remaining issues and should the season be cancelled anyway, then I'm not sure how the players will proceed.

We've already lost so much of the season already, part of me is really curious to see how this would all play out in court.

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12-15-2012, 05:30 PM
  #344
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Most legal motions are taken from templates of previous legal motions. Look at your home mortgage, it is the probably the same as your neighbor's. There is no deception or controversy involved. Legal wording that was successful in the past is likely acceptable in the future.

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12-15-2012, 05:51 PM
  #345
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Most legal motions are taken from templates of previous legal motions. Look at your home mortgage, it is the probably the same as your neighbor's. There is no deception or controversy involved. Legal wording that was successful in the past is likely acceptable in the future.
Both sides here are using the same lawyers as used in other sports. I expect any anti-trust suit filed by players to look the same as the anti-trust suits filed by NBA players since the union will use the same lawyers.

The leagues use Proskauer Rose (Batterman) and the unions use Weil, Gotshal & Manges (Quinn).

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12-15-2012, 06:22 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I think the league is trying, and will fail, to use labor laws to stretch what antitrust and contract law protect.
I think NHL is just trying to show that PA's DOI is nothing but a negotiating tactic and it's very hard to argue against NHL's case. Partially thanks to the players mouthing off on twitter.

The NHLPA is going the DOI route only because decertification takes too much time. Any court should recognize PA's tactics and tell them to go away.

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12-15-2012, 06:22 PM
  #347
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AFAIK no AHL contracts have been offered to players on NHL contracts. The reason for this supports the concept of the NHL as a monopoly in NA.
Hall, Eberle, Hopkins, etc. all have NHL contracts and then signed AHL contracts.

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12-15-2012, 06:32 PM
  #348
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
I think NHL is just trying to show that PA's DOI is nothing but a negotiating tactic and it's very hard to argue against NHL's case. Partially thanks to the players mouthing off on twitter.

The NHLPA is going the DOI route only because decertification takes too much time. Any court should recognize PA's tactics and tell them to go away.
I think you're ignoring the rest of the claims the NHL is making.

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12-15-2012, 06:38 PM
  #349
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Hall, Eberle, Hopkins, etc. all have NHL contracts and then signed AHL contracts.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think they signed AHL contracts - I believe the Oilers just took advantage of the fact that they are still on two-way, waiver exempt ELC's to send them down to the farm.

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12-15-2012, 06:39 PM
  #350
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I think you're ignoring the rest of the claims the NHL is making.
How many players have no contracts?

Isn't it around 400?

If the courts completely side with the union, then those without contracts can't sue anyone.

They would be totally screwed.

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